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| Felipe Musco |
![]() Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:26 pm |
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Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 2434
Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil
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| Simple question: assuming I tap mana to use an activated ability, say, destroying target creature. Then, in response, I destroy/bounce his creature with an instant. The mana he didn’t get to use for the activated ability burns him? Or he already PAID the ability, no matter what, and his pool is empty? |
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| La_Sin_Grail |
![]() Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:13 pm |
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Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 806
Location: Maryland
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There are three things in MTG faster than instants. One is folding. The second is playing a land (this matters with kird ape). The final is mana tapping. You cannot respond to them tapping mana- paying a cost is infinately fast. The only thing you can do in response is add the mana for what you are planning on playing to your mana pool (i.e. nothing).
If he pays the ability, all costs are used. He could not take mana burn from this exchange. |
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| Felipe Musco |
![]() Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:55 pm |
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Joined: 18 May 2006
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Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil
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| So, he PAYS the cost, even though ACTIVATING the ability can be stopped by bouncing/burning, right? No mana burn for that. That’s what I thought. Tks! |
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| La_Sin_Grail |
![]() Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:44 pm |
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Joined: 14 Aug 2005
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Location: Maryland
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Well, yes. Mostly.
See, it depends on the wording of the ability. If you bounce the creature in response to the creature dealing damage, then the ability will fizzle, but if you have, say, an elvish piper, my understanding is because the elvish piper himself does not put the creature into play, just the ability on him does that, and once the ability is paid for, it will enter the stack as an ability independant of what happens to the piper. If you shock piper in resposne, that fattie’s still gonna smacj you around. In contrast, if I were using the ability on kamahl, pit fighter, and you killed him in response, the target would not take damage, because his ability checks for him by referring back to him. Abilities which refer to the card on which they are found require that card to be in play when the abliity resolves, for the most part.
Granted, this is a really picky rule that’s somewhat annoying, but call a judge if anything like this arises. Just remember to read the ability and think about it. Can Kamahl hit something if it’s dead? But will a counterspell shot into the air care about who shot it? |
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| Felipe Musco |
![]() Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:10 am |
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Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 2434
Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil
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| Yeah, come to think of it, this IS an annoying rule, I’ve seen SOME arguing about the ability on Piper going to the stack, and only once it resolves the creature is revealed, so if he gets shocked in response, his controller didn’t reveal a card from his hand for nothing. But this would be contrary to what you said, and I happen to think you’re correct. I mean, Piper does not need to be alive, since the card doesn’t read: "Elvish Piper puts a creature..." |
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| La_Sin_Grail |
![]() Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 11:47 am |
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Joined: 14 Aug 2005
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Location: Maryland
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| See the ability goes onto the stack, but if it’s say... a creature with ping (T: This creature deals one damage to target creature or player), then when the ability would resolve, if the creature who would be dealing the damage is no longer in play, it fizzles. |
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| BrianBoitano |
![]() Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 5:58 pm |
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Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Posts: 124
Location: Houston, TX
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I’d like to point both of you guys to just about the most useful article I’ve found on MagicTheGathering.com. It was (sadly) the last Saturday School article that will be written, and it brings up many things that suprised my friends and I. The article can be found at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/jc99
Activated abilities in general are one of the most confusing things about MTG, and the article deals with them so elegantly:
The stack is most often used when we play spells and activated abilities. Doing so follows this plan in order (parts are skipped if not applicable):
#Announce the spell or ability (state what you’re playing) and put it on the stack
# Choose the mode, alternate costs, value of X, kicker, buyback, splice, and so forth
# Choose targets
# Choose how the targets are affected (if the effect is different like with Drooling Groodion) / divide or distribute the effect (Hail of Arrows)
# Figure out the cost, play mana abilities, and then pay costs
# The spell or ability is now considered "played"
Once you begin playing something, no one else can do anything until that thing is officially played. There is no time for a player to try and eliminate a Sakura-Tribe Elder, for example, between the time that you say you’re going to activate its ability and the point at which it is sacrificed. Doing something to the permanents in play won’t undo a spell or ability that’s on the stack. You can’t pay two costs with one thing.
Since the total cost is calculated before you pay costs, sacrificing something that increases or reduces a cost won’t change what you pay. Sacrificing something that triggers on a spell or ability to pay the cost for that spell or ability means it won’t be around to trigger (a Rusalka sacrificing a Burning-Tree Shaman, for example).
Total cost is what you pay to play something. The mana cost is only what’s printed in the upper-right corner of the card. The converted mana cost is what’s in that corner turned into a single number--colored mana symbols add one per symbol. Mana cost and converted mana cost don’t change (unless there’s an X in the cost, and the spell or ability is on the stack), but the total cost can. The cost calculation is handled in this exact order: Total cost = Mana cost + Additional costs - Cost reductions.
When a targeted spell or ability tries to resolve, it checks to see if the targets are still legal. If some are legal, only the legal ones are affected (and any other parts happen as normal). If all the targets are illegal, then the entire spell or ability is countered.
The bottom line is, once an ability is on the stack, unless it states that the source of the ability must be in play (Check out the Coldsnap preview card "Stalking Yeti"), affecting the source of the ability will not affect the ability. Wizards came up with the "Last known information" rule, to deal with the logistics involved. Basically, a spell or ability put on the stack is "locked in" as far as targets and effects go unless they are specifically changed by another spell or ability (such as Sideswipe) that resolves first.
Any spell or ability will be countered if any of its targets become illegal, though!
Sorry this is so long, I just wanted to be as thorough and accurate as possible. |
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| La_Sin_Grail |
![]() Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 8:48 pm |
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Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 806
Location: Maryland
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It’s okay. I tried to explain a similar thing to... I think it was felipe perhaps under the gameplay section. This is exactly why they can’t kill your sakura-tribe elder in response to sacrificing it  |
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| Felipe Musco |
![]() Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 11:07 pm |
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Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 2434
Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil
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| And believe me, I’ve seen a more than fair share of people doing it... Actually, I saw SO MANY people doing it that I started this thread, since I was myself starting to believe it was ok... |
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