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| La_Sin_Grail |
![]() Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:20 pm |
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Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 806
Location: Maryland
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--- description ---
An new Selesnya deck that combines aggression with control. Detailed analysis of card choices and matchups.
--- end description ---
Selesnya Beats: Agro Control G/W Deck???
This is NOT “another Agro Deck”.
This is NOT “another Control Deck”.
This is…. both. The principle idea came from the frustration of Boros being the “only playable beat deck in standard.” So looking around, I realized you can’t beat Boros in pure speed. Then I realized I didn’t have to. This deck can start out like agro, but has potential to allow the rush creatures to grow and thrive to be able to still do much damage late game. So, I started naming cards 4 mana and less that were top tier cards:
• Umezawa’s Jitte
• Loxodon Hierarch
• Watchwolf
• Boros Swift blade
• Birds of Paradise
• Cranial Extraction
• Lightning Helix
• Putrefy
• Gifts Ungiven
• Circu, Dimir Labatomist
• Glorious Anthem
Of course, they aren’t in any order except for jitte, the best card in standard. So, I left that when I took out the Boros cards. Then I saw cranial and putrefy as good in control but not agro. So, what was left was a lot of G/W and Gifts. Since although Gifts is fun, it’s a pretty common deck, I chose to make a G/W deck.
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Centaur Safeguard
4 Watchwolf
4 Loxodon Hierarch
4 Tolsimir Wolfblood
4 Umezawa’s Jitte
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Glorious Anthem
4 Selesnya Guildmage
9 Forest
4 Temple Garden
8 Plains
Sideboard
4 Pithing Needle
4 Naturalize
4 Faith’s Fetters
3 Silklash Spider
Card Choices
Birds of Paradise- Who puts BoPs, a 0 power creature in an agro deck? I thought about this a lot and figured out that bops can allow me to throw down a jitted watchwolf third turn- attacking. Basically, jitte is the best card in T2, so I might as well abuse it as much as possible. BoPs merely allow me to beat with it faster, not slower.
Isamaru, Hound of Konda- I chose Isamaru over Savannah Lions because of the extra toughness. In this deck, I try to play down agro creatures and have them grow, and when Isamaru gets anthemmed, he gets out of range of classic burn spells like shock and pyroclasm, while savannah lions die.
Centaur Safeguard- Although he may be a little bit slow, he is incredible anti agro because he kills their cards and stalls with life gain. Also, the three power and multi-color turns him into a hunk with Tolsimir.
Watchwolf- This is possibly the simplest card in Ravnica. He is simply powerful, no two ways about it. Immune to pyroclasm from the start, him beating with a jitte on turn three hurts vs. any deck.
Loxodon Hierarch- this is the safety net against things like Pyroclasm is I didn’t draw an anthem, as well as free life gain in a decent beater. No wonder he’s been shooting up in value. Playing him alone almost defeats any agro threat, and he can stop control decks from killing off a ton of my creatures. Oh yea, he beats pretty well, too!
Tolsimir Wolfblood- This is one of the reasons this can still win late game. His ability to turn watchwolf into a 5/5 or hierarch into a 6/6 allows the deck to compete with some combo decks even after they have gone off. Also, he can’t be helixed, and can be thrown down turn 4 if I get a combination of two elves/BoPs.
Umezawa’s Jitte- This is the best card in standard. I can’t stress that enough. That means there is no reason to not run four copies. Because this is so powerful, people will usually go to any length to kill one, making it perfectly reasonable to have 4 so you can have a shot of two in your hand. If I could run 5 legally, I would, despite it being legendary! Having two is just planning for them dropping one anyway. And if you beat 3x with jitte, you win.
Llanowar Elves- This was on the fence until I realized how useful it is to use to throw out a turn 4 Tolsimir. Also, using garden, a turn 3 anthem doesn’t require BoP anymore, so my chances are better.
Glorious Anthem- This is an incredible card for spam pumping agro creatures and turning them into long-term powerhouses. When you drop one turn two, it becomes ridiculous. Play two copies and you just win.
Selesnya Guildmage- late game, you will have mana left over, and putting into play uncounterable tokens is quite useful when they come in as 3/3’s and cost no cards to create. A 2/2 body isn’t bad either, and it’s easy to play due to guild mana/
Lands- I used only four Temple Gardens because I thought the deck could take the two life loss (another reason for safeguard and hierarch). Also, against a control deck, I can’t afford to be missing half my weapons, even if it costs two life.
Matchups
Boros Weenie- An incredible match up. Possibly the best one for this deck. All you need to do is counter Isamaru with Isamaru, and jittes with jittes, then start playing your bigger creatures and win with hierarch of wolfblood being too much to handle. Remember to throw down hierarchs and centaur safeguards ASAP, since they will get a bare minimum of 1 for 1 cards with free life gain. Also, naturalize their jittes before playing your own if they play jitte early.
-4 Llanowar Elves
-2 Tolsimir Wolfblood
+4 Naturalize
+2 Faith’s Fetters
The Rock- Try using quantity over quality to play down as many cards as you can. Keep beating them down, and save fetters for Kagemaro when it comes into play. You will win by playing this deck like an agro deck; finish them with Tolsimir’s buffing only as a last resort. Try to out swarm their big creatures.
-4 Veteran Armorer
-4 Centaur Safeguard
+4 Faith’s Fetters
+4 Pithing Needle
MUC- Pretty simple plan here. Play a lot of things that cost one mana before they can afford counterspells, or multiple spells per turn when you can. Swarm and beat until you’ve dealt 20.
-4 Veteran Armorer
+4 Faith’s Fetters
Battle of Wits- Deal 20 ASAP, again. They won’t have too much removal, so just best spells, don’t focus on quantity or quality. Hope they get a bad hand or you get a naturalize. One naturalize is enough to give your beaters time to win.
-4 Veteran Armorer
+4 Naturalize
Mill- This has been a popular type of deck to play… unfortunately, it has no prayer against agro and this is no exception. They can’t stop you without Kagemaro, and when he’s fettered, you can run the board.
-4 Veteran Armorer
+4 Faith’s Fetters
Bernie Makino
bonzoees@aol.com
La_Sin_Grail |
| Last edited by La_Sin_Grail on Sun Nov 27, 2005 3:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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| La_Sin_Grail |
![]() Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 10:55 pm |
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Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 806
Location: Maryland
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I'd love to see what you liked/didn't like about the article!
Any tips for the deck? I'd love suggestions! |
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| The First |
![]() Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 7:56 am |
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Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Posts: 195
Location: Anderlecht, Belgium
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First things first: there is written 4x Selesnya in your decklist instead of 4x Selesnya Guildmage. Edit that will you. It is only a detail as you mention the Guildmage a bit further in your article but it wasn't clear to me the first time I read your decklist.
What really bothers me about your decklist is that you don't have any removal, except for the Jitte. Boros decks have Devouring Light, Lightning Helix and sometimes even the Jitte. Creatures with any kind of evasion will still get through. You do have lots of life gain to compensate for this.
I think that Sundering Vitae is better than Naturalize. Anyway, I prefer the Vitae. Just curious what you think about this. If you have a lot of 1cc, the Vitae is defenately better IMO.
About your match-ups: Boros doesn't often use Isamaru. They tend to use 1/1 flyers instead. I'm not sure that Boros uses Jittes. I guess that some do and others don't. I think that those 2/2 flyers and such could really hurt you early on. If you get your life gain early enough, you just might be able to win. I would use some devouring lights against Boros instead of those Fetters or even Pacifism to block them as early as possible.
The Rock: I'm not sure who you are playing against but in my rock deck, Kagemaro only comes out if I have enough black to use him. So only if I have 6 mana avaiable of which 3 Black. The Pithing Needles are useful to block those Plague Boilers though because that would really screw your strategy.
MUC: Getting those Birds or Elves out on the first turn will be critical because you don't have any 1 or 2cc threaths. MUC also tends to only counter what's really necessary like a Glorious Anthem or Jitte. And even then, they can Boomerang them. You should be able to get a win out of this but it won't be that easy.
Mill... Depends which decktype but aggro decks are bad. Getting out Circu is vital. You should be able to win pretty easy unless they have some incredible draws.
Well written article with tons of info but I would really like to see some test results on this deck. Both of my friends have a similar deck and my Suicidal Black deck as well as my Counterfire deck really mess with it. However, their decks don't have any Anthems or Jittes in them and they rely a bit more on tokens. That's why I'm curious about test results.
~ Thge First |
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| La_Sin_Grail |
![]() Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 4:02 pm |
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Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 806
Location: Maryland
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The First wrote: First things first: there is written 4x Selesnya in your decklist instead of 4x Selesnya Guildmage. Edit that will you. It is only a detail as you mention the Guildmage a bit further in your article but it wasn't clear to me the first time I read your decklist.
What really bothers me about your decklist is that you don't have any removal, except for the Jitte. Boros decks have Devouring Light, Lightning Helix and sometimes even the Jitte. Creatures with any kind of evasion will still get through. You do have lots of life gain to compensate for this.
I think that Sundering Vitae is better than Naturalize. Anyway, I prefer the Vitae. Just curious what you think about this. If you have a lot of 1cc, the Vitae is defenately better IMO.
About your match-ups: Boros doesn't often use Isamaru. They tend to use 1/1 flyers instead. I'm not sure that Boros uses Jittes. I guess that some do and others don't. I think that those 2/2 flyers and such could really hurt you early on. If you get your life gain early enough, you just might be able to win. I would use some devouring lights against Boros instead of those Fetters or even Pacifism to block them as early as possible.
The Rock: I'm not sure who you are playing against but in my rock deck, Kagemaro only comes out if I have enough black to use him. So only if I have 6 mana avaiable of which 3 Black. The Pithing Needles are useful to block those Plague Boilers though because that would really screw your strategy.
MUC: Getting those Birds or Elves out on the first turn will be critical because you don't have any 1 or 2cc threaths. MUC also tends to only counter what's really necessary like a Glorious Anthem or Jitte. And even then, they can Boomerang them. You should be able to get a win out of this but it won't be that easy.
Mill... Depends which decktype but aggro decks are bad. Getting out Circu is vital. You should be able to win pretty easy unless they have some incredible draws.
Well written article with tons of info but I would really like to see some test results on this deck. Both of my friends have a similar deck and my Suicidal Black deck as well as my Counterfire deck really mess with it. However, their decks don't have any Anthems or Jittes in them and they rely a bit more on tokens. That's why I'm curious about test results.
~ Thge First
First off, thanks for the tip on article mistype and on vitae, I'm just not sure I would want to lose the creatures for tapping, and it would take two to be less than naturalize. Still, its a point I hadn't thought of.
I liked much of what you had to say, I only had one qualm. What good boros deck doesn't use jitte? It's the most powerful card in standard... why not use it unless you're a control deck?
I picked anthems/jittes over more tokens because 5 2/2's is better than 8 1/1's if they all get through, and jitte is the best card in standard. Also, it gives me a chance against things like the rock because I can beat for so much late game. |
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| Guest |
![]() Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 5:22 pm |
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Quote: 4 Birds of Paradise
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Centaur Safeguard
4 Watchwolf
4 Loxodon Hierarch
4 Tolsimir Wolfblood
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Glorious Anthem
4 Selesnya Guildmage
9 Forest
4 Temple Garden
8 Plains
Sideboard
4 Pithing Needle
4 Naturalize
4 Faith's Fetters
3 Silklash Spider
For an agro deck, tolsimir is very expensive, and is useless in multiples due to his legendary status. Why is he in here, especially since you already have glorious anthem and selesnya guildmage for the smae purpose?
Safeguard is a terrible card, far worse than watchwolf, and farworse than almost any other 3 power 3 mana creature. His 1 toughness means he dies to any opposing creature, most importantly, Sakura-tribe elder. His second ability is almost useless, allowing you to win a war you are already winning because of heirarch.
You have very few creatures for this to be an agro or beats deck. At the rate of one creature per turn (which is a little high for this deck it seems), you will have at most 2 creatures by the time your anthem comes down, and at least one of them will probably be a mana producer and the other will be large already, not needig the boost of the anthem. Without some kind of evasion, i.e. trample or flying, the boost from anthem is negligible because of chump blockers and direct removal spells.
Why do you play so many mana producers? The high number of mana producers may seem to speed you up, but when your hand has no threats because of the number of lands and accelerators, you will have tons of mana and nothing significant to do with it.
Playing anthemn on turn 2 is pointless. It slows down your development, decreases your tempo drastically, and makes your opponent's combat math extremely easy. After wasting a turn on this, boros deck wins will have you down to about ten, and then get in at least 4 points via creatures over the next few turns, giving them an easy target for burn. Even with heirarch you won't be able to recover. Against other decks similar problems arise. |
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| inresponse |
![]() Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 5:23 pm |
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Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 162
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oops, that's me ^
And how are you boarding out veteran armorers? They aren't in your list... |
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| La_Sin_Grail |
![]() Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:10 pm |
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Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 806
Location: Maryland
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I'm not quite sure you guys are getting what the deck is supposed to do... I guess thats my fault for not explaining it. The idea is I get out small things and mana acceleration into wuick 3/4 drops. Turn 3 jitted watchwolf is one goal, another is simply getting out a tolsimir.
the point of tolsimir is I drop one and win that turn by making 6/6's hierarchs, 5/5 watchwolfs, and 5/3 safeguards. Safeguard is there mainly because he is two colors, and I had trouble finding good G/W (both G and W) creatures.
As for not enough creatures, I'm quite sure there's 8*4-1=31 creatures. I should be able to play like 5 in a game easy.... I'm pretty sure thats enough.
Anthem turn two is kind of pointless, yes, the main idea of the mana accel is to beat with something jitted turn 3, namely watchwolf.
I can't stress this enough- the point is that the mana producers grow. Bops are an easy way to use jitte to get in because of evasion. Also, I find jitte, hierarch, and tolsimir, especially those last two to be excellent "threats". |
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| T2_Fr33K |
![]() Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:17 pm |
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Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Posts: 32
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| aside from sideboarding out cards that aren't there, I'd give it a 5... I'll say 4 for being dumb. |
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| inresponse |
![]() Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:20 am |
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Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 162
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your creature count is high, but not your threat-creature count. Birds and elves are not threats.
Also, equipping a bird with jitte requires the jitte to have counters already, or some way to pump the bird. That means it has to be late game. Or you have to have spent the last 2 turns playng birds, anthem, and then jitte/equip before you can attack. Way too late for your birds to be alive, and by then you are way behind on tempo. |
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| La_Sin_Grail |
![]() Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:01 pm |
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Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 806
Location: Maryland
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Hm... ok. Turn one, birds. Second turn isamaru and jitte. Third I beat with isamaru jitted. Fourth i use jitte wherever.... or, I could go second watchwolf and isamaru, 3rd play/equip jitte. Fourth I use jitte..
Also, for the last time, the idea is I get buff stuff out. I should be beating with jitted creature turn 3. By turn 5 (when a good T2 agro deck kills) thats four counters. Not to mention if I have a tolsimir or anthem in play, a 9/10 or maybe 10/11 flyer is pretty big. Also, its easy to minus out their flyers because flyers other than dragons are pretty weak in T2.
I also must remind AGAIN for those who don't read, that this isn't pure agro. This is agro/control, and shouldn't be a straight rush. I'm confident I can beat agro, and pretty sure I can beat control deck archtypes out there now (hierarch vs fungus fire is easy, I can play too many spells per turn for MUC, This is very much rock except I have jitte, so I can kill kagemaro when I want or swarm buff).
The reason I have birds is twofold. One- turn 3 jitted creature attacking is just sweet. This creature should NEVER BE A BIRDS, it should be an isamaru/watchwolf. Two- Birds can give a finishing blow with a jitte that has collected counters all game.
I'm also curious who gave me a two? I have a funny feeling it was a competitor. I wasn't perfect, but I would like to hear from whoever why they thought it was so bad? |
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