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| La_Sin_Grail |
![]() Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:08 pm |
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Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 806
Location: Maryland
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--- description ---
Guildpact reveals a promising new Guildmage that could create a potent Standard combo deck.
--- end description ---
Hurray! A full ten cards on the guildpact spoiler… I wonder if any are good.
*looks at izzet guildmage*
*looks again*
Hm.. another guildmage, big whoop. Wait a second. Wizards wouldn’t do this. No… no way… that’s… an infinate combo in standard!!! Here’s how it works:
1) Play Izzet Guildmage (U/R U/R for a 2/2. 2R: Copy target sorcery with converted mana cost 2 or less. 2U: Copy target instant with converted mana cost two or less)
2) Play a lava spike with desperate ritual spliced on
3) This step is optional. Play the desperate ritual before spike clears the stack. Lets you throw this down with only 5 starting mana.
4) Copy the spike (spliced spell copies, too)
5) Let #4 clear the stack, obtain 3 mana from the ritual
6) Do #4 again
7) And again
 And again until they’re dead
9) Repeat #8 for every time they’ve ever taunted you
What was Wizards Thinking? Deck
4 Izzet Guildmage
4 Lava Spike
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Muddle the Mixture
4 Dizzy Spell
4 Gifts Ungiven
4 Pyroclasm
4 Seething Song
1 Magnivore
3 Mana Leak
2 Sift
6 Mountain
4 Island
4 R/U Shockland
4 R/U Painland
4 R/U Guildland
60
Sideboard
4 Seismic Spike
3 Stone Rain
4 Smash
4 Reduce to Dreams
Analysis
Here’s how the deck works. It’s pretty much what you would expect by looking at the list and the reasons I will give for each card. The thought process is there isn’t a deck around that can get a turn 4 kill. With plenty of time to transmute, this deck can do just that.
Card Backing up:
Combo+searches- self explanitory. The point of the deck is the combo.
Pyroclasm- beets weenie, stall mana acceleration
Seething song- lets you go off a turn early
Magnivore- in case they boseiju in a cranial on izzet guildmage.
Mana Leak- to stop them from cranialling guildmage
Sift- a last resort. If you play this, you’d better go off the turn after, or they have a bad hand.
Turn 1: nothing
Turn 2: Guildmage or guildland
Turn 3: Transmute for whatever part of the combo is missing, and play guildmage if not already done.
Turn 4: Combo!
Now here’s a godhand. 9 cards(turn two) two lands in play, one guildmage, two desperate ritual, two seething song, one lava spike, and one something else). Just ritual (3 mana) into 2x song (7 mana) then play a guildmage (5 mana) then play a spike with spliced lava spike (2 mana) and in response play the ritual you spliced (3 mana). Then you have the three mana to go on a copying spree. And they sit there crying at their Isamaru.
Then I realized that assuming godhand in this kind of deck is as folly as thinking wizards will actually go through with printing Izzet Guildmage. It’s quite possibly going to rival psychatog as the best creature ever printed.
Back on topic, I made a realistic plan for this deck, one that actually gives a bad hand.
Turn 1: Nothing
Turn 2: Bounceland or play guildmage
Turn 3: Transmute for a combo piece or play guildmage
Turn 4: Grab another combo piece with transmute and/or play a guildmage
Turn 5: Combo!
Note that this turn five kill assumes you only drew one piece of the combo, no seething songs, and this plan allows you to play gifts ungiven as well. In other words, a five turn kill is a bad, almost terrible hand. Most likely, with twelve cards that are a combo piece, you should draw two, definitely one by turn three.
The reason this deck seems to work is that I can access all the combo with ease and without dying.
1. I have four deperate ritual, four izzet guildmage, and four tutors for them. 1/5 of my deck is about getting out one of these bits of combo. Gifts can search as well; grab three combo parts and a transmuter for your pile.
2. I not only have four lava spikes, but four tutors as well. That leaves eight cards devoted to this part of the combo.
3. I have pyroclasm. Not only should I be able to beat weenie by killing them first, but I have a Plan B. Also, this works well against birds of paradise and llanowar elves in rock-like decks.
4. The combo is harder to stop than first anticipated. If they kill the guildmage, and I find another. Also, if I play mono blue, I can just wait for tons of mana, enough to clone their counterspell or counter their counter. I can even play the combo in one turn because guildmage doesn’t need haste to clone.
Sideboarding
For the most part, I don’t need to write much on matchups, just what to board in.
Anything with boseiju and cranial: landkill in, leave in counterspells. Leave out some transmute/gifts stuff because you can afford to take your time. If you get cranialled, all you can do is magnivore and pray. And burn .
Mono blue control: Don’t board. Simply stall until you can send off the combo as soon as they tap out. Or until you have so much mana you can counter their counterspells, or play another copy of your spell.
Weenie: Board in smash for some counterspells. Smash jittes.
Anything with just cranial and not boseiju- make sure you keep two mana open for a leak at all times. And if they live till they can make 7 mana (somehow) then keep five open to clone your mana leak.
Anything with mana acceleration (creature accel.)- Use pyroclasm on Bops and Llanowars. Seems wasteful, but usually you can disable them in the long run.
Anything with guildlands(commons)- board in landkill. It’s just too funny and useful to waste two full turns of them playing lands.
Random Things
Keep in mind not to get too distracted preventing your opponent. If you haven’t gone off by turn five, focus on only that. The longer the game, the more chances they have to get ways to disrupt your combo.
Also, don’t mulligan too much. Because this is a combo deck, only mulligan if you have one land, 5-6 lands, or no parts of the combo in your starting hand. Card advantage is huge when you need to find a combo or search cards for the combo.
Other funny good things about the deck: Turn one doesn’t require anything to be played, so drop a shockland here and don’t take the damage. NEVER play a lava spike turn 1, even if you have two. Keep one in case they counter the first one.
Yes, there is another infinate combo in standard. I’m not saying this is the only one, just the best. However, it’s a three color combo requiring a four mana creature to have been in play for at least a turn, and four cards instead of three. Not to mention no red involved for superfast launching the combo or giving the guy haste. The other combo goes off on a godhand turn four. Mine goes off about turn 4 on a normal one. |
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| inresponse |
![]() Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:13 pm |
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Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 162
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this combo doesn't work. When you splice a card onto another card, the converted mana cost is increased by the amount paid for the splice cost. This means that Lava Spike spliced with Desperate Ritual has a converted mana cost of three while on the stack, making it untargettable by Izzet Guildmage's ability.
This is simialr to the way an X spell's converted mana cost is higher while on the stack than while in another area. for example: You cast Fireball for 4. Normally, the converted mana cost for fireball is 1, but while it is on the stack for 4, its converted mana cost is 5. |
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| syndrome |
![]() Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:24 pm |
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Joined: 20 Jul 2005
Posts: 423
Location: A cold place.
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| La_Sin_Grail |
![]() Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:39 pm |
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Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 806
Location: Maryland
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The spell has the characteristics of the main spell, plus the text boxes of each of the spliced cards. The spell doesn’t gain any other characteristics (name, mana cost, color, supertypes, types, subtypes, etc.) of the spliced cards. Text copied onto the spell that refers to a card by name refers to the spell on the stack, not the card from which the text was copied.
Example: Glacial Ray is a red card with splice onto Arcane that reads, “Glacial Ray deals 2 damage to target creature or player.” Suppose Glacial Ray is spliced onto Reach Through Mists, a blue spell. The spell is still blue, and Reach Through Mists deals the damage. This means that the ability can target a creature with protection from red and deal 2 damage to that creature.
Thats copied directly from the comprehensive rules. Doesn't gain the characteristics. You can't gain the extra conv. mana cost because it does not gain the characteristics. I also searched the section about paying extra costs for "converted" and nothing popped up. I asked about the combo on magictraders and 11 people agree with me vs. 0.... so I'm pretty sure it does work. I'm not unreasonable, I just want to see the text of the rule, because I can't find anything that says it's affected by splice.
http://www.wizards.com/magic/comprules/MagicCompRules051001.doc
There's the rules, to save you guys some time.
EDIT:
When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object’s characteristics (name, mana cost, color, type, supertype, subtype, expansion symbol, rules text, power, and toughness) and, for an object on the stack, choices made when playing it (mode, targets, the value of X, whether a kicker cost was paid, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on). The “copiable values” are the values that are printed on the object, as modified by other copy effects, plus any values set for face-down spells or permanents and any values set by “comes into play as” abilities. Other effects (including type-changing effects) and counters are not copied.
I copy the value printed on the card- the mana cost of one.
It's not printed as being more than one converted mana cost. The X on fireball is printed on the card, so when you define it, it is set. Nothing is printed on lava spike about anything spliced on.
If it works, than you just gave me a one for a legit article that certainly doesn't deserve it. Perhaps you should consult the rules before voting. Maybe ask before judging? or at least give a rule referance as to why by following my lovely link.
EDIT again
409.1b If the spell or ability is modal (uses the phrase “Choose one —” or “[specified player] chooses one —”), the player announces the mode choice. If the player wishes to splice any cards onto the spell, he or she reveals those cards in his or her hand. If the spell or ability has a variable mana cost (indicated by {X}) or some other variable cost, the player announces the value of that variable at this time. If the spell or ability has alternative, additional, or other special costs (such as buyback, kicker, or convoke costs), the player announces his or her intentions to pay any or all of those costs (see rule 409.1f). You can’t apply two alternative methods of playing or two alternative costs to a single spell or ability. Previously made choices (such as choosing to play a spell with flashback from his or her graveyard or choosing to play a creature with morph face down) may restrict the player’s options when making these choices.
The extra cost is not listed on the spell. The cost means the actual ability is paid for with the desperate ritual, while the effect is added to lava spike. |
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| T2_Fr33K |
![]() Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:12 pm |
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Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Posts: 32
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Errr... I glanced at the rules and I think I'll have to agree with grail.
I don't think that's the way the rules should work, but he has Wizards on his side, it seems. And wow, is that cheap. |
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| T2_Fr33K |
![]() Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:16 pm |
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Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Posts: 32
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after looking again, yes Grail is right. This unfortunately doesn't work on any other sort of buff we could use, like kicker, because they are always printed on the card.
Don't forget about the combo coalhauler swine and pariah's shield and blessing of leeches. Thats only two colors, evern though they can art. hate the shield. |
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| Ilvaldi |
![]() Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:19 pm |
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Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 59
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Either way, if your combo works or not, the deck would still fail. Your combo is too reliant on the spike, guildmage, and ritual. All they have to do is "I play quelch" or "mana leak" on your guildmage and everything falls apart. Furthermore, your use of pyroclasm to fight back against weenie doesn't help you in early game or it will kill your guildmage, and it won't help you in late game since they will play glorious anthem.
In fact, if the combo does work, this might be presented in the izzet theme deck which will be similar to the theme deck that came in with the heartless hidetsugu combo. Playing this in tournament will get you killed. I would also like to comment on your variation of "bad hand." Don't expect to just get laid off for the next four turns and think that you'll survive for four turns. In fact, if you went second at the beginning of the game, you would be dead by fifth turn.
Next, your guildmage DOES NOT rival with psychatog. Psychatog is an independent engine of destruction. Psychatog does not need mana for the use of its ability and that it can recycle cards used in a graveyard or cards that are useless in the hand. Guilmage needs three mana to use either one of its abilities. THREE MANA. In a red/blue deck, the power to use that ability consistently is undefined. Blue stalls to get the win condition out. Red eliminates threats. Both don't have alot of mana to offer from turns 1 to 5 (blue espeacially; red could offer but only through items like seething song) .
The ability costs too much in tournament standards (in the worst case scenario where there is no mana accel, you won't be able to copy spells until turn four or even later) . |
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| inresponse |
![]() Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:13 pm |
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Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 162
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e-mail a judge, the combo does not work. Also, the combo wil not be in theme decks because the theme decks will only use cards from ravnica block, and will not extend into Kamigawa.
Even if the combo does work, the deck won't. 3 card combos in standard rarely do. In this deck, it definitely does not. Every deck play some form of removal or some way to deal with the guildmage. If you are lucky enough to keep it out for one turn, then you may be able to go off. However, if you are interrupted at anypoint (for example your opponent killing your guildmage inresponse to the first activation) it is very difficult to go off again, requiring another copy of both guildmage and lava spike.
There is no way MUC or Flores Blue is a good match-up. Yoru strategy is to wait until you have enough mana to cast your spells without counter risk, but they have far more counterspells than you. You can't have enough mana to deal with their counterspells, especially disrupting shoal whcih allows them to counter even when they are tapped out. Blue can play large creatures with counter back up to stop your spells easily.
can you provide tested results for any match ups? |
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| La_Sin_Grail |
![]() Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:05 am |
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Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 806
Location: Maryland
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Yea, I know, MUC or blue counterfires or blue plays a lot of counters is bad for my deck. I found that from the proxy testing I've done, but I also found that I beat weenie, the rock, fungus fire, an MGA deck I found (not your build but close), and selsnya tokens at over 50%. I'm thinking thats pretty good, since nobody has all good matchups. And yes, I beat BoW as well, and if somebody could link me to e-mail a judge, I would appreciate it. Level three or higher, though, since I had a large fight with a level two judge once, when he completely wrong, and it's made me doubt low level ones. Any 3, 4, or 5 emailable judge is highly appreciated.
As for the combo, I have 24 cards devoted to it or searching for it, and I think that should be enough. Weenie is weak to WoG, Pyroclasm, and yes, my deck is weak to many things as well. Do keep in mind though, that I can pop without having the guildmage already down. All it takes is turn 5, and one of each combo piece and a seething song. I can stall for quite a while with clasming, gifts for clasm, muddle, and two mana combo parts, gifts for clasm, song, and both combo parts, and nothing can stop me. Most decks with creature kills are some sort of Black agro control, where they will be tapping out the first few turns anyway. Eight mana, and I can clone in response to kill and still go off. Which is six mana with a seething song, which isn't very problematic either.
The deck isn't perfect, but it accomplishes my goals:
1) It's fun
2) You get that look on their face when you go off
3) It beats weenie/agro
4) It beats wildfire
5) It beats BoW
6) It beats tokens
7) Pretty much, it beats enough that I make the T8, and then lose immediately because the guy put his friends to spy me when my name was put in T8. Yes, there are ways to beat this deck, but not if you don't know whats coming.
8) I'm not trying to win a tourney- I'm trying to have fun, and I do.
EDIT
Q: When you Entwine a spell, does the converted mana cost include the Entwine cost?
A: No, the converted mana cost of a spell does not include the entwine cost. The converted mana cost of a spell is the total of the mana in the upper right corner of a card, it does not include any optional or additional costs.
from star city games from the ask the judge, keyword converted, top entry. Check it out.
Found another one from starcity: different context, same concept
A: The mana cost of a spell never changes. It's always what's in the upper right-hand corner. You cannot Liquify an Arrogant Wurm; the Wurm's converted mana cost is 5. |
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| T2_Fr33K |
![]() Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:22 am |
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Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Posts: 32
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Catfight! Only grail has claws and you have words not supported by wizards. And he's right- that comes straight from starcity. Here's a link to the judging pages. Just use keyword "converted"
http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/judgefinder.php
Thats pretty much exactly what he's been saying. Also, remember the psychology of the game. The other deck will be in no way prepared for his combo at first, then they'd have to win games two and three.
Unless, of course you do what you did and shove this combo upon the MTG world so now everybody will know whats coming. Great idea. |
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