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What should be done about Elven Armaments?

X it  
13%
  [ 4 ]  13%
 
Leave it  
37%
  [ 11 ]  37%
 
R it in expanded play  
10%
  [ 3 ]  10%
 
Ignore the last sentence  
13%
  [ 4 ]  13%
 
Change the last sentence to Both the fellowship and minion archery totals are -3  
20%
  [ 6 ]  20%
 
Make it unique  
3%
  [ 1 ]  3%
 

Total Votes : 29
spartiatis
Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 3:58 pm
Joined: 08 May 2007 Posts: 42 Location: Greece
I believe we should hold back from such actions for the time being.
When the set is released and we have thoroughly playtested the new cards, then we will be able to judge better.
For the record, i also believe that Elven Armamemts is fine the way it is.
Heck, even Grima Wormtongue had a bigger impact in the way the game was played back then.
Thranduil
Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 4:05 pm
Joined: 01 May 2007 Posts: 2256 Location:
spartiatis wrote:
I believe we should hold back from such actions for the time being.
When the set is released and we have thoroughly playtested the new cards, then we will be able to judge better.

That’s a very good point, but apart from anything else, I’m certainly not going to buy T & D - I adamantly refuse to play with such ridiculous cards until a consensus has been reached on how to deal with them. Also, I don’t think opinions will change that much by seeing them in action.
I thought about waiting, but it’s going to take such a long time going through it all card by card anyway that I figured we might as well start now.
And I couldn’t disagree more on your opinion on elven armaments, but my views have pretty much been echoed by quite a few people, so I won’t bother repeating them.

There must be more votes on this, no?

Thranduil
'We do what we do because of who we are. If we did otherwise, we would not be ourselves.'
- Dream of the Endless

Check out my block based on The Hobbit, my remake of Age's End, and the Fall of Eregion
Vote for your favourite Bilbo, Retired Adventurer(V)
PorterTroll
Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 4:12 pm
Joined: 23 Jun 2006 Posts: 1193 Location: not sure yet
CarpeGuitarrem wrote:
Note that it also COMPLETELY shuts down all Freeps archery, including the most potent card out there, Aragorn’s Bow, Ranger’s Longbow. Fair? Who said fairness was a standard in LOTR? Is Cavern Entrance fair? How about the previously mentioned Aragorn’s Bow, Ranger’s Longbow? Or any card which helps a strategy in any way, for that matter? Was Sword of the Fallen fair?

"Fair" is when you run nine companions down the site path with no cards in your deck, no cards in your hand, against an opponent whose deck only includes minions. No enhancements for anybody, just plain companion vs. minion.

I also recommended an R-listing in Expanded, where Moria, Isengard, and Raider archeries are the most potent. Men archery is shut down, but it already comes with built-in counters. Mumak Rider at Foot of Mount Doom, and Elven Armaments is gone for good.

Not to mention that if you want to use EA, you have to either not play possessions on a companion, or use the twilight to transfer that companion’s possessions onto another companion.


To refute your first point: If you include this card in your deck, your probably not using Aragorns Bow, Ranger’s Longbow or any type of archery anyway. Simple explanation, what you said doesn’t make sense! Freeps archery decks simply won’t include this card!

You’re mistaking fair with even, an EVEN match would be companions versus minions in an all out bloodbath. Fair is when both sides have perk cards that can enhance their battle abilities, but since both sides have them, it is still FAIR. When one side of the battle gets a card such as, oh, I don’t know, Elven Armaments perhaps? The battle goes lopsided and thus the game loses its FAIRNESS.

This card doesn’t need to be R-listed in expanded, since one copy of it is all it takes to shut down Raider and Moria archery. Whether you have 4 in play or 1 in play, it does the same thing. It should be edited to omit the second sentence, or X-ed. It’s as simple as that.

Umm...You said that in order to play Elven Armaments you must pay for it’s twilight cost? What? You have to do this for every card so I don’t think this counts as a "detrimental effect" for the card. Even if you did have to transfer the posession, I’d still say two twilight is well worth complete and utter protection against all forms of archery.

And yes, cavern entrance is fair as is sword of the fallen.
Thranduil
Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 4:13 pm
Joined: 01 May 2007 Posts: 2256 Location:
And on AP’s point about the card shutting down Free Peoples archery, you’re right, but that doesn’t make it balanced.
If you put elven armaments into a deck with unique elves, you just won’t bother putting in any archers, elven bows or cards that do things in the archery phase. Your opponent can’t do that. If they have an archery deck, they have an archery deck, and what you’re effectively doing by putting in this card is making half of their deck obsolete. It will never effect you in game, but it may effect your opponent considerably, and it’s certainly an NPE to realise your Shadow side simply does nothing.

Thranduil
'We do what we do because of who we are. If we did otherwise, we would not be ourselves.'
- Dream of the Endless

Check out my block based on The Hobbit, my remake of Age's End, and the Fall of Eregion
Vote for your favourite Bilbo, Retired Adventurer(V)
CarpeGuitarrem
Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 4:28 pm
Joined: 07 Apr 2006 Posts: 3361 Location: Franciscan University of Steubenville
PorterTroll wrote:
To refute your first point: If you include this card in your deck, your probably not using Aragorns Bow, Ranger’s Longbow or any type of archery anyway. Simple explanation, what you said doesn’t make sense! Freeps archery decks simply won’t include this card!

But now the card has already affected you. It stopped you from using an archery Freeps. Simply put, this card restricts what decks you can play it in. It DOES shut down FP archery, because you don’t even bother playing it.
Quote:
You’re mistaking fair with even, an EVEN match would be companions versus minions in an all out bloodbath. Fair is when both sides have perk cards that can enhance their battle abilities, but since both sides have them, it is still FAIR. When one side of the battle gets a card such as, oh, I don’t know, Elven Armaments perhaps? The battle goes lopsided and thus the game loses its FAIRNESS.

Hold it...so fair != even?? Do you mean that Sauron vs. Sam is FAIR?

I could make an argument for plenty of cards being lopsided. You could easily argue that Sauron is lopsided. True, he’s balanced cost-wise, yet he still tips the scales when you play him. Just like the Balrog. Oh, and have you thought about a repeating Balrog deck with Fill With Fear?

There are supposed to be cards that are game-makers. That’s what the Rare cards are all about. Aragorn’s Bow, Ranger’s Longbow is as fair as EA. Yet, it shapes a meta. Or G for Grand. In no way can you convince me that that’s simply a "perk" to enhance abilities.
Quote:
This card doesn’t need to be R-listed in expanded, since one copy of it is all it takes to shut down Raider and Moria archery. Whether you have 4 in play or 1 in play, it does the same thing. It should be edited to omit the second sentence, or X-ed. It’s as simple as that.

According to that logic, there’s no point to the R-list. If you only have one copy of the card in your deck, that’s not a high probability that you’ll draw it until late in the game. And even then, it can get discarded. And at Foot of Mount Doom, it goes poof pretty easily.
Quote:
Umm...You said that in order to play Elven Armaments you must pay for it’s twilight cost? What? You have to do this for every card so I don’t think this counts as a "detrimental effect" for the card. Even if you did have to transfer the posession, I’d still say two twilight is well worth complete and utter protection against all forms of archery.

Elven Armaments has to go on a companion with no possessions. To achieve that, you must either not play possessions on that companion, or transfer away that companion’s possessions, which can translate to 3 or 4 extra twilight.
"ok, change of plans. the Cobracards christmas party is coming to my house, and we’re gunna teach FM how to hunt." (mm)
PorterTroll
Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 4:40 pm
Joined: 23 Jun 2006 Posts: 1193 Location: not sure yet
CarpeGuitarrem wrote:
PorterTroll wrote:
To refute your first point: If you include this card in your deck, your probably not using Aragorns Bow, Ranger’s Longbow or any type of archery anyway. Simple explanation, what you said doesn’t make sense! Freeps archery decks simply won’t include this card!

But now the card has already affected you. It stopped you from using an archery Freeps. Simply put, this card restricts what decks you can play it in. It DOES shut down FP archery, because you don’t even bother playing it.
Quote:
You’re mistaking fair with even, an EVEN match would be companions versus minions in an all out bloodbath. Fair is when both sides have perk cards that can enhance their battle abilities, but since both sides have them, it is still FAIR. When one side of the battle gets a card such as, oh, I don’t know, Elven Armaments perhaps? The battle goes lopsided and thus the game loses its FAIRNESS.

Hold it...so fair != even?? Do you mean that Sauron vs. Sam is FAIR?

I could make an argument for plenty of cards being lopsided. You could easily argue that Sauron is lopsided. True, he’s balanced cost-wise, yet he still tips the scales when you play him. Just like the Balrog. Oh, and have you thought about a repeating Balrog deck with Fill With Fear?

There are supposed to be cards that are game-makers. That’s what the Rare cards are all about. Aragorn’s Bow, Ranger’s Longbow is as fair as EA. Yet, it shapes a meta. Or G for Grand. In no way can you convince me that that’s simply a "perk" to enhance abilities.
Quote:
This card doesn’t need to be R-listed in expanded, since one copy of it is all it takes to shut down Raider and Moria archery. Whether you have 4 in play or 1 in play, it does the same thing. It should be edited to omit the second sentence, or X-ed. It’s as simple as that.

According to that logic, there’s no point to the R-list. If you only have one copy of the card in your deck, that’s not a high probability that you’ll draw it until late in the game. And even then, it can get discarded. And at Foot of Mount Doom, it goes poof pretty easily.
Quote:
Umm...You said that in order to play Elven Armaments you must pay for it’s twilight cost? What? You have to do this for every card so I don’t think this counts as a "detrimental effect" for the card. Even if you did have to transfer the posession, I’d still say two twilight is well worth complete and utter protection against all forms of archery.

Elven Armaments has to go on a companion with no possessions. To achieve that, you must either not play possessions on that companion, or transfer away that companion’s possessions, which can translate to 3 or 4 extra twilight.


Oh, come on! That’s not true and you know it, if someone wants to use a freeps archery deck that bad, EA isn’t gonna stop em!

You’re logic on the R-list doesn’t make sense. Elven Armaments is broken because one copy can erase the archery phase forever. So what if you might not draw it on site four or five? When do you really need to protect against a huge archery attack? Thats right! The third region, it doesn’t matter if you only have it in play for site nine, thats all the playtime it needs to see to completely ruin your opponents archery! Other cards are on the R-list because they are not fair when used in a combo, which can only be exocuted with multiple copies.

Oh, darn, you can’t play posessions on your Unique elven companion. If you’re playing an archery deck, it wouldn’t matter if you add a BILLION twilight cause once you’ve got Elven Armaments out on the field on a unique companion, no amount of twilight can help the archery shadow take down the elves. They don’t have enough strength to do any damage in the skirmish phase, so once you’ve got this card out against an archery deck with no posession removal you’ve won. It’s insane, what is the archery shadow gonna resort to? Swarm? No, they’re too expensive for that.

So basically once you’ve got this card out against an archery deck, their only chance is to run for site 9 with their freeps as fast as they can, and since the person with EA on the field now knows there is no chance of his freeps dying, he or she will probably double or triple every turn. Don’t you see? This card can win games by itself! That is not what LOTR is about. LOTR is about strategy and planning, not one stupid umbrella card that completely wipes out an entire meta of play. This card is just rediculous.
raptor22
Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 5:32 pm
Joined: 18 Feb 2007 Posts: 196 Location:
I would like to make it clear that I fully support the idea players errataing/banning cards to keep thing fair. But I don’t believe any action should be taken until the set is released and the cards can be properly tested. Decipher didn’t do it, and that created most of these problems. We shouldn’t make the same mistake.
CarpeGuitarrem
Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 6:18 pm
Joined: 07 Apr 2006 Posts: 3361 Location: Franciscan University of Steubenville
PorterTroll wrote:

Oh, come on! That’s not true and you know it, if someone wants to use a freeps archery deck that bad, EA isn’t gonna stop em!

Huh? You mean I can use a Freeps archery deck and EA at the same time?? My point was: if you want to use Freeps archery, you can’t use EA. If you want to use EA, you can’t use Freeps archery. So using EA shuts down your archery possibilities.
Quote:
You’re logic on the R-list doesn’t make sense. Elven Armaments is broken because one copy can erase the archery phase forever. So what if you might not draw it on site four or five? When do you really need to protect against a huge archery attack? Thats right! The third region, it doesn’t matter if you only have it in play for site nine, thats all the playtime it needs to see to completely ruin your opponents archery! Other cards are on the R-list because they are not fair when used in a combo, which can only be exocuted with multiple copies.

Not so. Bill Ferny was R-listed, and there’s no way you can get multiple copies of him out there. In fact, I doubt that logic about multiple copies holds for most of the R-list cards. I’ll go and check, but I don’t think so...

Anyway, R-listing it would limit the draw possibilities, make it easier to knock out.

Quote:
Oh, darn, you can’t play posessions on your Unique elven companion. If you’re playing an archery deck, it wouldn’t matter if you add a BILLION twilight cause once you’ve got Elven Armaments out on the field on a unique companion, no amount of twilight can help the archery shadow take down the elves. They don’t have enough strength to do any damage in the skirmish phase, so once you’ve got this card out against an archery deck with no posession removal you’ve won. It’s insane, what is the archery shadow gonna resort to? Swarm? No, they’re too expensive for that.

Okay, so you’re not playing an archery shadow. Now, you’ve just added a billion twilight, and they’re playing minions. Tough for you.
Quote:
So basically once you’ve got this card out against an archery deck, their only chance is to run for site 9 with their freeps as fast as they can, and since the person with EA on the field now knows there is no chance of his freeps dying, he or she will probably double or triple every turn. Don’t you see? This card can win games by itself! That is not what LOTR is about. LOTR is about strategy and planning, not one stupid umbrella card that completely wipes out an entire meta of play. This card is just rediculous.

It can win games by itself...just like a lot of other cards. Given the right conditions, many cards can win games by themselves. And yet, this merits X-listing for all of them? And honestly, how many Tier 1 archery decks are there? You’ve got so many more options, and do you even play archery? Troll Swarm doesn’t get touched by this card.

Furthermore, this card ain’t so great against non-archery shadows. It limits your elves to a strength 2 boost from possessions (no more Sword of the Fallen), and they can’t use any other possessions.

I also agree with raptor, there shouldn’t be any X-ing or R-ing until we see the whole set.
"ok, change of plans. the Cobracards christmas party is coming to my house, and we’re gunna teach FM how to hunt." (mm)
Gartax
Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 6:22 pm
Joined: 10 Apr 2006 Posts: 98 Location:
I agree with porter troll the fact is that EA does not shut down freep archery because you won’t play any archery card .

and if you play freep archery well no EA

it is quite simple
CarpeGuitarrem
Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 6:48 pm
Joined: 07 Apr 2006 Posts: 3361 Location: Franciscan University of Steubenville
Which basically does shut down FP archery, because you don’t play it. In game, it doesn’t shut down FP archery, but it shuts down FP archery from any practical point of view.
"ok, change of plans. the Cobracards christmas party is coming to my house, and we’re gunna teach FM how to hunt." (mm)

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