Cobra Cards Player Community ~ View topic

LotR TCG Wiki

→ Card Sets:

All

→ Forums:

TLHH

Cobra Cards Player Community Forum Index

Forum index » Magic: The Gathering » MTG Strategy Article Contest

Author

Message

Rate this article!

5 (Best)

[ 1 ] 50%

[ 0 ] 0%

[ 1 ] 50%

1 (Worst)

[ 0 ] 0%

Total Votes : 2

The First

Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:54 pm

Joined: 07 Oct 2005 Posts: 195 Location: Anderlecht, Belgium

--- description ---
Take the best cards from two guilds, mix them together and invent a stupid name. Let the games begin...
--- end description ---

When they first showed the spoiler for 1 of the shock (*) lands , back when Ravnica was about to release, I was amazed. The good ol’ days from Invasion block seemed to be returning and about 5 to 6 months later, the standard format is both fun and diverse.

(*) = for those very few people who don’t know why they are called “shock” lands: they are called shock lands because they deal 2 damage when you bring them into play untapped, just like shock.

Before GuildPact, there were lots of hybrid decks running rampant at the local tournaments; WWr (the regular WW with a red splash for Lightning Helix amongst others) , 3-colored Gifts decks, etc… There weren’t much decks that were actual “Guild” decks though. No real Boros deck but WWr, no decks with a profound dregde theme, that rose to the surface. Mill decks never seemed to be working the way you had imagined it. Dimir aggro decks were actually more consistent and efficient than the mill variety.

With Guildpact, this all changed though. We have all sorts of Orzhov decks. Gruul actually won Pro Tour: Honolulu. Izzet seemed to be the weaker Guild at PT:H but I think that the reason for that can be found in the appearance of the Owl decks. In general: the Guilds from Guildpact got some really powerful cards that IMO the Ravnica Guild didn’t get (or got less). The Haunt and Bloodthirst abilities, even replicate at times, are very good while Transmute was too slow, Radience was unpredictable and convoke was overpriced. Dredge was actually the best ability printed on cards like the Grave-Shell scarab and Life from the Loam.

Even though it is not in the nature of those Guilds, players can now start to mix 2 or 3 Guilds toghether, taking the best cards from each Guild and color, and poor them into a decklist. That’s what I did anyway. And the results aren’t bad. I had 1 Searing Meditation deck, 1 Ur control deck and an Izzet deck (with Electrolyse, Gelectrode and other Izzet staples) and combined them into my WurCo deck (White, blue, red control deck).

The decklist looks like this;

Land / Fixing 24

3x Steam Vents
3x Shivan Reef
3x Adarkar Wastes
1x Battlefield Forge
1x Sacred Foundry
4x Plains
1x Eiganjo Castle
1x Minamo, School at Water’s Edge
1x Shinka, the Bloodsoaked Keep
2x Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion

4x Boros Signet

Finishers 7

2x Meloku, the Clouded Mirror
2x Yosei, the Morning Star
1x Keiga, the Tide Star
2x Firemane Angel

Permission 8

4x Mana Leak
4x Remand

Burn 9

4x Lightning Helix
4x Electrolyse
1x Blaze

Others 12

4x Wrath of God
4x Faith’s Fetters
4x Cerebral Vortex

Card choices

Let me first explain my choices regarding my landbase.

First of all: yes, I know that you may use 4 copies of each pain/shock land but they are very expensive and rare. I just don’t have 4-ofs of every land. I could’ve just listed 4-ofs in my article, that’s true, but the landbase is very stable the way it is. I’ve never been colorscrewed in more than 15 matches.

The signets: These are more important than they might look. They are both mana-accelerators and fixers. They allow for a 3rd turn Wrath of God which is huge against aggro decks like Zoo and Gruul. On top, they release the pain from your “pain” lands in the mid-to-late game.

Sunhome: you might think that I take a risk by putting 2 sunhomes into this deck because I only have 20 land and 4 signets. But they aren’t much of a risk though. Why? Because they can produce colorless mana. I can either put that mana in a spell (lots of spells that can use colorless mana) or put it into a signet which will happen most of the time. The pro of Sunhome lies in the fact that my Dragons (or Angels) only have to swing 2x to win me the game. With the current environment, I find it that situations can change very fast so winning the game on 2 turns might be vital.

Why these finishers?

Meloku: he dies to char, wildfire and probably a few others. Because of E. Domain, I wanted to take him out but due to the small number of Domain decks at PT:H, I decided to keep 2 copies. After all, it’s Meloku we’re talking about!!

Yosei: I actually want to add another Yosei and bring the number up to 3. He can either buy you some time when killed or be impressive as a 5/5 flyer who strikes for 10 damage thanks to Sunhome. His ability is really amazing. The “extra” turn saved my skin quite a few times already.

Keiga: I feel like stealing creatures isn’t that easy in this deck. I have counters, Wrath of God or Faith’s Fetters to imobilyse my opponent’s creatures. Not to mention burn spells. The impact of a 2nd or 3rd copy would be minimal. Keiga will probably be replaced with a 3rd Yosei when I get one.

Firemane Angel: This card is good for 3 reasons. 1st is extra life gain. 2nd is a stop to Ghost-council, grave-shell scarab and other */4 creatures. 3rd is that it keeps coming back if you can spare the mana. Of course, it can also strike for 8 damage with Sunhome. I don’t think that more than 2 copies is a good idea though.

Up to the persission cards then:

Mana Leak and Remand are the most common counters I think. Mana Leak is a “real” counter card in the way that the countered card goes to the graveyard while Remand is more like a “bounce the spell back to hand before it resolves” kind of thing. The good part about remand is that it will give you some tempo advantage if played early game. Your opponent will be tapped out w/o having cast a spell while you will have replaced your remand with another card. Both players will have 1 extra land in play though which is better for the control player as you have more expensive spells and your game kicks in mid-to-late game.

Hinder might be good against certain decks though. Putting a Grave-Shell Scarab at the bottom of a library for instance, is defenately a good thing.

The burn spells:

The Helixes and Electrolyses will protect you from aggro decks like Zoo, WWr and Gruul. They both have something extra that another burn spell doesn’t have though. Helix gets you some extra life gain while the Electrolyse allows you to draw an extra card.

Blaze is a very good card to have around. It can kill a creature or finish your opponent when the situation is looking grim for the WurCo deck. 1 is enough though. It always comes in handy. Just try it.

The other spells:

Wrath of God: just like Jitte in most aggro decks, this card really doesn’t need an explanation in my build. But here goes; Destroy all creatures. They can’t be regenerated. That was easy.

Faith’s Fetters: I’m actually surprised to see some white decks (exept WW) not pack this beauty. 4cc for 4 life gain and a lock for any permanent. Lets make a list: Greater Good, Jitte, Kokusho, Svogthos, (inset any other permanent you dislike)…

Cerebral Vortex: you might not aggree with me on this one. There are lots of people using Tidings, Compulsive Research or Jushi Apprentices but I prefer this card because it is a more versatile spell. The Jushi Apprentice makes no sense in a deck with 4x Wrath of God. The Vortex is an instant instead of a sorcery which is far better IMO. On top, you can direct it to your opponent for a minimum of 3 damage ( 7 after Tidings which is cool in a mirror). I wouldn’t play this card in a pure UR deck because such a deck probably can’t handle the life loss but with Fetters and Helix, you hardly feel it.

Sideboard options:

I think that I can handle the aggro match-up and certain control match-ups. What bothers me the most are Owl decks. I’ve been thinking about Peace of Mind to help me handle the Owl decks after almost impossible options like Cloistered Bottle and Slate of Ancestry.

Of course, this deck needs some artifact and enchantment removal in the sideboard. Terashi’s Grasp and Shatter should do the trick.

Sacred Ground is a must against Wildfire or other Land Destruction decks.

Sideboard:

3x Peace of Mind
4x Shatter
4x Terashi’s Grasp
4x Sacred Ground

Match results:

Like I said, the aggro match-up is relatively easy. I won from both Gruul decks and WWr. I only lost 1 game from a Gruul deck and non from WWr. Played three mathes against the WWr and four against Gruul.

I also won from an Orzhov deck running Teysa, Ghost Councils, Bob, Mortify, Fetters and Castigate amongst others. I must admit that this match-up is quite difficult though. I might have to change my deck a little to deal with it.

I also played a Gruul wildfire deck running Wildfire, signets, Hunted Dragon, Savage Twister, Rumbling Slum, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Lava Spike, Carven Caryatids… We only played 1 match and I won it quite easily. Feathered his slum and killed other threaths. Countered Wildfire the first time and when he could cast a second, it didn’t make any difference anymore as I had enough Helixes, Vortexes and Electrolyses (cheap spells) to gain enough life and decimated his to win the game thanks to the Slum.

I’ll probably test this deck again next saturday in a standard tournament. But I’m pretty confident that this deck can handle most others. And I have a good time playing it thanks to "tech" cards like Sunhome, Vortex and Yosei.

~ The First

La_Sin_Grail

Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 10:18 pm

Joined: 14 Aug 2005 Posts: 806 Location: Maryland

I like this deck very much, just want to throw a few general ideas out there.

1) You’re playing control. That means the first thing you need to do is beat agro. I like the wrath of god, but honestly those counterspells are pointless with WoG. They will throw down all they have left the turn after WoG and you’ll have no mana to counter anyway.

2) Cerebral Vortex has potential, but this isn’t the place for it. Against agro, you’re letting them refuel after Wog.

3) Have you considered playing gifts ungiven? Many decks can deal with 7 "finishers" but if you could pull out two with gifts and draw one, they would be swamped.

4) Compulsive Research would be very nice here. I’m sure late-game you won’t need so much land, so you can draw two other cards.

5) Last thing. I know jitte didn’t make an incredible showing at the PT, but it’s still a big worry. Also, everybody plays signets, and some play ghazi-glare or greater dragons. I would throw in a few naturalizes in case their important cards aren’t killed by Wog.

I was very impressed- I looked pretty deep for most of those. I like the general idea, and the guts to go outside the typical color combos.

P.S. I’d like to playtest you sometime with a new creation of mine that seems to work surprisingly well. E-mail bonzoees@aol.com if you want to.

inresponse

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:51 pm

Joined: 18 Oct 2005 Posts: 162 Location:

I’m sorry La_Sin_Grail, but I really don’t believe you have ever played control. Wrath does not beat decks alone. Counterspells don’t only counter creatures. I think you need a little experience with control...

Wrath and counterspell are very frequently in decks together because they work well together. You can wrath, your opponent can usually drop one to two threats the next turn. You are given an additional turn to find answers, either electrolyze, helix, or fetters. You can cast two of these spells and still leave mana open for counters. Also, counters are important for before you wrath. If jitte comes down on turn 2, how do you respond? With a turn one play, you can never let them swing with an equipped creature, which forces you to play the game according to their rules, however if you can counter that jitte, you have slowed them down a turn, and forced them to play more threats the following turn so that they aren’t ruined by a single removal spell. This opens you up to better options for wrath and forces the opponent to guess what is in your hand.

I don’t think you are a bad magic player, but I do think you should play more control archetypes because it seems like you don’t have much experience with them (not just this article response, but also those to my b/w deck last month)

La_Sin_Grail

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:23 pm

Joined: 14 Aug 2005 Posts: 806 Location: Maryland

There’s two ways of looking at it.

1) I don’t know what I’m talking about

2) I know not only what I’m talking about but the meta game you will see. If you take this deck to a good tournament, they will expect WoG and plan accordingly. If somebody drops a white first turn and says go, they have Wog or should have mulliganned.

3) What do you do about first turn kird ape?

4) Not to be mean, but if as any teourney worthy magic player would do, what if they didn’t drop the jitte until you’ve tapped mana for Wog or otherwise? What do you do against an isamaru and another creature (like kird ape) with a jitte the turn after Wog? They’ll have 4-5 mana, which is enough for two one drops and a jitte. Even if you proceed to fetter their jitte, then you aren’t helping your own cause because not only will you lack the mana to play a counter, but you’ll have to tap out after the turn after to play a win condition. That means starting their fourth or fifth turn (depending on who went first) they’ll have three turns to play beaters and jittes free of counters.

5) I was actually saying Wog isn’t good, I’m explaining that it can’t beat decks alone.

6) Now I’m really gonna go out there. I’ve played control before. I’ve won prereleases. I’ve been to Grand Prix. If you want to make points about what I say, fine. Just don’t question me as a player in general.

7) I think what I’m trying to get at here is that you’re expecting to be playing good decks, but with dumb opponents. If I see a deck with first turn plains/go, I’ll know there’s Wog. If the next thing I see is a blue/go, I’ll know it’s got counters. And I’d plan accordingly. If I can figure that out and I still don’t win tourneys, imagine what the really good players can figure out? Their whole deck would be played differently. You need to take into consideration that some players are so practiced that they can guess the better half of your hand with minimal clues, and they will know to wait for Wog.

Cool

I know that counters don’t only counter creatures. I’m just pointing out that the odds of you having two aren’t very good. If you remand a jitte turn two, they’ll still play it turn three. They’re slowed down a turn but it still won’t save you.

9) I don’t see really any way to beat control in here... it seems all geared towards agro to me. Yes, counters could go either way, but helix, electrolyze and Wog are almost wasted against control.

The First

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:49 pm

Joined: 07 Oct 2005 Posts: 195 Location: Anderlecht, Belgium

La_Sin_Grail wrote:

The counterspells are here for everything that I can’t handle right away, either with WoG of Faith’s Fetters.

Castigate, Jitte, removal on my finishers or Wildfire are all great cards to counter.

Or to slow down aggro as InResponse stated.

Counters are vital to control decks. Good sweeper cards like Wrath of God are actually a bit less important.

Quote:

2) Cerebral Vortex has potential, but this isn’t the place for it. Against agro, you’re letting them refuel after Wog.

How do you mean, refuel? If I play it on my opponent? I aggree thatit is a card that needs some thinking before playing, but it is the best draw card for this deck, or at least my draw engine of choice thanks to versatility and instant speed.

Quote:

3) Have you considered playing gifts ungiven? Many decks can deal with 7 "finishers" but if you could pull out two with gifts and draw one, they would be swamped.

Yes, I have. I love Gifts. Unfortunately, Gifts is too slow for the current environment.

These 3 colors don’t have means to get cards back so you’d need to take 4 good cards of which you’ll get the two worst and the others are discarded. That doesn’t sound very effective to me, unfortunately, because I’d love to once again play Gifts.

Quote:

4) Compulsive Research would be very nice here. I’m sure late-game you won’t need so much land, so you can draw two other cards.

I should test them instead of the Vortexes. Indeed, land cards are usually dead cards during the late game.

Quote:

5) Last thing. I know jitte didn’t make an incredible showing at the PT, but it’s still a big worry. Also, everybody plays signets, and some play ghazi-glare or greater dragons. I would throw in a few naturalizes in case their important cards aren’t killed by Wog.

Counters and Faith’s Fetters should be able to deal with most of those threaths. Playing a Fetters on Jitte or Kokusho is lots of fun - for me of course.

But there are 4 Terashi’s Grasps in the sb just in case. The shatters could be thrown in against players who rely heaviliy on signets. I’ve seen decks running 8 signets.

Quote:

I was very impressed- I looked pretty deep for most of those. I like the general idea, and the guts to go outside the typical color combos.

Thanks

Quote:

P.S. I’d like to playtest you sometime with a new creation of mine that seems to work surprisingly well. E-mail bonzoees@aol.com if you want to.

Sure, why not. I just downloaded the mws. Give me some time to figger it out though.

~ The First

La_Sin_Grail

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:01 pm

Joined: 14 Aug 2005 Posts: 806 Location: Maryland

yeah. I’m sorry, I thought you would be running a different card such as compulsive research (over cerebral vortex) if you intended it for use on yourself. My bad.

I suppose this could work well enough for a JSS or something... I just think that if you’re playing anywhere thats true competitioin, you’ll need to be wary that your opponents will expect Wog. Also, if you really want to counter things turn one AND two, perhaps run ten or twelve counterspells? Convolute would be a good pick.

I, too, just got MWs recently, but I’d be happy to try it out with you. My deck still needs some work before it’s ready, and I’ve been looking to practice against some not as mainstream (i.e. not zoo or owling mines) decks.

The First

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:31 pm

Joined: 07 Oct 2005 Posts: 195 Location: Anderlecht, Belgium

La_Sin_Grail wrote:

I suppose this could work well enough for a JSS or something... I just think that if you’re playing anywhere thats true competitioin, you’ll need to be wary that your opponents will expect Wog. Also, if you really want to counter things turn one AND two, perhaps run ten or twelve counterspells? Convolute would be a good pick.

s’cuse me but what does JSS stand for? Confused

The nice thing about WoG is that they may expect it. I don’t care. The aggro deck has no other options but play their creatures and attack. If they don’t, then my blast cards and fetters will imobilyse their troops.

I don’t counter every 1 and 2 drop, only the ones that I can’t handle. Against WW for instance, I need to counter the Anthems (maybe the Jittes if I have no Fetters in hand). The creatures can be played because I have enough removal to take care of them.

~ The First

La_Sin_Grail

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:36 pm

Joined: 14 Aug 2005 Posts: 806 Location: Maryland

Yeah... I don’t know. Is there anything you can do about ghostway? Thats been getting some buzz and it’s been saving my new animals with weapons deck.

JSS= Junior Super Series

What I was trying to say is this will work in semi-serious and reasonably competitive places very well. But the players themselves at the top tier GP’s and stuff will have spent hours upon hours finding the weaknesses of their deck and how to counter them. All the agro players will have spent at LEAST two hours worth of time finding the best way to face Wog, seeing as it’s the main threat.

inresponse

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 1:25 am

Joined: 18 Oct 2005 Posts: 162 Location:

I’m sorry, but this conversation is ridiculous.

this shouldn’t even be a debate. Wrath is amazing versus agro. Wrath is decent against control. It’s commonly accepted.

aside from that, I don’t think this deck is very good. There is an almost identical list in my meta and it is very weak versus control and combo. SVG heartbeat wipes the floor with it and izzetron has more mana than UWR can ever hope to have.

The First

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:29 am

Joined: 07 Oct 2005 Posts: 195 Location: Anderlecht, Belgium

inresponse wrote:

aside from that, I don’t think this deck is very good. There is an almost identical list in my meta and it is very weak versus control and combo. SVG heartbeat wipes the floor with it and izzetron has more mana than UWR can ever hope to have.

Izzetron is supposed to have more mana than any deck. Name 1 deck that has more mana than Izzetron. IMO this will be a close call. I can gain some life to make it more difficult to kill me with 1 Blaze. And he has to get that Blaze out of his deck as well. But you are right in general; this deck needs some more playtesting against combo and control decks. Sadly, I’m the only control player in my "group". That’s why I want to test it next week in a tournament. I thought about adding Sowing Salt to my deck. It is never completely useless and kills Tron decks.

@ La_Sin_Grail : I, myself also did quite some playtesting against aggro decks (actually most playtesting was against aggro), and I assure you that aggro doesn’t stand a chance against this deck. It isn’t JUST WoG. It is also counters, helix, electrolyse, fetters and the lifegain from those cards that makes this deck great against aggro. And, yes, you can predict that there will be a WoG and don’t play a few creatures, just in case, but my spot removal will take care of those.

Forum index » Magic: The Gathering » MTG Strategy Article Contest

All times are UTC - 4

Page 1 of 4 [38 Posts]

Goto page: 1, 2, 3, 4 Next