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| La_Sin_Grail |
![]() Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:37 pm |
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Joined: 14 Aug 2005
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Location: Maryland
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Ok, good. You have much confidence in this creation, which is what I was looking for.
How much testing did you do against control? My thought is owling mine could put the hurt on you with ease, and I’m not sure exactly what other good control decks there are anymore.
EDIT: to inresponse.. Wrath is just plain bad against control. It’s very good against agro, not quite amazing, but not worth arguing that point. Wrath of god is a waste of deckspace against control, which is why I’d classify this deck with W/R control as anti-agro. |
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| inresponse |
![]() Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:05 pm |
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Joined: 18 Oct 2005
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you’re right, it’s terrible to be able to remove all the meloku tokens your opponent has. Wrath is not bad against control, seriously, just play a deck with wrath.
Izzetron has more mana than any deck in the format, aside from heartbeat (kind of). Just because this is obvious doesn’t make it a non-issue. In order to beat this deck you have to either have better threats, not allow them to utilize their mana, or just not let them have it. In the long game Sowing Salt will be a bad choice because they will be playing lands every turn, even if they can’t get to Tron. This means they will have roughly the same mana as you, and your sowing salts will have traded for a land while they lost no relevant threats.
Another option is to up the counterspell and removal count. While Izzetron does have a large mana supply, they only have so many threats. In a control on control match up, it will always go to the long game. This gives you more time to draw into answers and counterspells. I have to go, but I’ll continue this later. |
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| The First |
![]() Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:56 pm |
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Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Posts: 195
Location: Anderlecht, Belgium
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La_Sin_Grail wrote:
How much testing did you do against control? My thought is owling mine could put the hurt on you with ease, and I’m not sure exactly what other good control decks there are anymore.
I tested against an Orzhov aggro-control (or so the player described it). I won the match eventually. In the late game, he played a Faith’s Fetters on an Angel, so that he could attack with his Ghost Council, but then made a vital, but necessary, "mistake" when I tried to Fetter his Tomb of Urami during my turn; he destroyed his entire manabase just to have a 5/5 flyer (otherwise would’ve been dead because of Yosei with double strike - sunhome). He had 1 Council, 1 Urami and 1 Teysa. I had 1 Yosei and 1 Angel with Fetter on it. Also had the Red Kami land and sunhome + other land. He then used Teysa’s ability (destroyed his creatures to remove Yosei from the game and getting 2 1/1 flyers). I had electrolyse and got another Angel. That was it.
I tested against a R/G Wildfire deck but that isn’t exactly a control deck. Good control or combo deck are Greater Goods, Owl, Izzetron and E. Domain, even though the Owl deck isn’t really called a control deck.
I’ll test my deck against E. Domain soon because I now have all the cards that are necessary. I’ll ask a friend to play it against this one. I should stand a chance against Greater Goods thanks to Terashi’s Grasp in sb and Fetters in md. I really don’t know what Izzetron will do against my deck. The Owl is probably GG from the start (like most other control decks). I sideboarded Peace of Mind just for this deck but the more I think of it, the more I think that I could use those 4 slots more wisely than siding cards against an almost impossible mtach-up to win. 
@ InResponse; I’m hoping for a good counterspell in Dissension. Mana Leak is good but not against Izzetron (will just pays the 3 mana). Remand isn’t much of a counterspell or time walk against control match-ups. Hinder on the other hand could delay Izzetron a lot. Might be a good card to consider in sb.  |
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| inresponse |
![]() Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:22 pm |
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Joined: 18 Oct 2005
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| I would suggest rewind, since they might cast multiple threats per turn. |
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| La_Sin_Grail |
![]() Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:15 pm |
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Joined: 14 Aug 2005
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Location: Maryland
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inresponse wrote: I would suggest rewind, since they might cast multiple threats per turn.
Yes, this would be a great tool against any control deck. I think he selected his counterspells as good against agro, but this would make it better against control, to counterbalance WoG being great against agro and (becuase if you can’t just fetter a meloku, you have problems) not very good against control. |
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| The First |
![]() Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 5:23 pm |
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Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Posts: 195
Location: Anderlecht, Belgium
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inresponse wrote: I would suggest rewind, since they might cast multiple threats per turn.
Hmmm. That’s probably better than Hinder. Good call.  |
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| La_Sin_Grail |
![]() Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 10:16 pm |
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Joined: 14 Aug 2005
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Yeah... rewind will be a better call not just because of the untapping thing, though. Remember that it will work better on control and less on agro, but I suppose you’re covered on the agro front here.
The other thing is, perhaps you want more counters? I know rewind is good, but if you’re unable to cast another instant, it’s not really worth it. |
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| The First |
![]() Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:38 am |
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Joined: 07 Oct 2005
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Location: Anderlecht, Belgium
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La_Sin_Grail wrote: Yeah... rewind will be a better call not just because of the untapping thing, though. Remember that it will work better on control and less on agro, but I suppose you’re covered on the agro front here.
The other thing is, perhaps you want more counters? I know rewind is good, but if you’re unable to cast another instant, it’s not really worth it.
Actually, I would take Rewind just for the untapping, otherwise Hinder is just better. Returning the card at the bottom of the library is good against dredge decks and other graveyard manipulations like Greater Gifts.
1/3 of my deck are instants so I would be very unlucky not to have other instants in my hand. However, I’m beginning to think that Hinder would be the better counterspell for this deck. It is only 3cc while Rewind is 4 (even though they get untapped again) and it is an answer to graveyard manipulation... |
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| La_Sin_Grail |
![]() Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 7:09 pm |
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Joined: 14 Aug 2005
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Location: Maryland
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agreed on hinder. What I meant by the whole untapping thing was not that you won’t have an instant, but that you 1) won’t have one you want to use with the mana and 2) it costs four no matter how you spin it, which is bad against too good a rush.
I like the idea of stopping graveyard stuff. Very good against recurring gifts or dredge (or greater dragons). |
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| inresponse |
![]() Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 12:49 am |
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Joined: 18 Oct 2005
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| I don’t think extra counterspells are that amazing against many control decks, I was just suggesting rewind for izzetron. Against other control decks you are just as fast as they are, and the extra counterspels just lower your threat count, which needs to be high against similar decks. However, against izzetron, you need to be able to counter multiple threats in a turn, usually starting on turn 4 at the earliest. This means rewind is probably the beter card. Also since you are going to be waiting until their endstep, maybe some instant card draw like cerebral vortex would be a good addition (although you already have some in your main, it might be useful to add a couple to the board.). |
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