Author Topic: Crashing Cavalry (Read 19160 times)

Kralik · « **on:** February 08, 2009, 08:01:35 AM »

Crashing Cavalry... does "skirmish special abilities" apply only to the minion's gametext, or to conditions, possessions, etc. as well?

Pepin The Breve · « **Reply #1 on:** February 08, 2009, 08:11:37 AM »

Apply to any special abilities (without "h"

) from the minion game text to possessions and conditions (or site text). Like Faramir, SoD. Well another pretty card for the OP broken token combo

Kralik · « **Reply #2 on:** February 08, 2009, 01:42:41 PM »

So let me get this straight with an example:

I use Crashing Cavalry with Saruman, AotDL. During the skirmish with Saruman, he is unable to use neither his Skirmish: text nor any Skirmish: abilities on other cards. Outside of his skirmish, since he cannot use special abilities until regroup, he cannot use his ability to pump other minions either? So is it a double-whammy or is one of these off?

TheJord · « **Reply #3 on:** February 08, 2009, 01:51:24 PM »

This is correct.

Crashing Cavalary also applies to the Elf you assign the minion to aswell, which is why I never really liked it.

HawkeyeSPF · « **Reply #4 on:** February 08, 2009, 01:53:56 PM »

From the Comprehensive Rulebook 4.0, page 16:

special ability:
Besides events, other types of cards may have a phase action as a part of their game text called a special ability, which may be used only while the card is in play.

He may use skirmish events during his skirmish, as they are not special abilities, but not his own text (during his or other skirmishes) or skirmish special abilities on conditions, artifacts, etc until the start of the regroup phase.

It would work well for a beefy elf vs a weaker minion (maybe only 1 vitality left?), especially if you've got a pump in your hand just in case.

Kralik · « **Reply #5 on:** February 08, 2009, 02:44:54 PM »

Quote from: TheJord on February 08, 2009, 01:51:24 PM

This is correct.

Crashing Cavalary also applies to the Elf you assign the minion to as well, which is why I never really liked it.

It works particularly well in the deck I have it in. Nice to hear that it applies to the minion's skirmish abilities both in its own skirmish and in others'.

Thranduil · « **Reply #6 on:** February 08, 2009, 05:05:23 PM »

Quote from: HawkeyeSPF on February 08, 2009, 01:53:56 PM

He may use skirmish events during his skirmish, as they are not special abilities, but not his own text (during his or other skirmishes) or skirmish special abilities on conditions, artifacts, etc until the start of the regroup phase.

Hang on, the card says explicitly "Those characters may not use skirmish special abilities..." This applies only to special abilities that are written in the game text of those companions, no?

Thranduil

HawkeyeSPF · « **Reply #7 on:** February 08, 2009, 06:16:18 PM »

Let me clarify - any special abilities on the minion or companion may not be used until the regroup phase, and any skirmish special abilities may not be used in the skirmishes of just those characters, but they may be used in skirmishes involving other characters.

The reason being that since (for example) AotDL is skirmishing, he is using the special abilities on the other cards, like artifacts or conditions.

Kralik · « **Reply #8 on:** February 08, 2009, 06:28:59 PM »

Hawkeye, you sure there isn't a difference between a player using special abilities (see Faramir, SoD) and a character?

HawkeyeSPF · « **Reply #9 on:** February 08, 2009, 06:43:18 PM »

Hmm, this is how I remember it being ruled, but I'll check things over again and report back.

Bombadil · « **Reply #10 on:** March 11, 2009, 04:53:34 PM »

As I understand, the special abilities on conditions or other characters are not used by the character. So the abilities on the two cards cannot be used, but others can. Im almost sure that the abilities are used by the player (and by the card in wich they are written). this explains the wording on Faramir, Son of Denethor and Saruman's Snows. The cards dont say that the characters cant use... its player and opponent.
And Crashing Cavalry doesnt say its only while they are skirmishing, its until the regroup, so they cant use the abilities on other skirmishes.

Bombadil.

Elessar's Socks · « **Reply #11 on:** March 12, 2009, 12:43:43 AM »

Yeah, I would've thought "in their game text" was implied. I can buy Gollum using his own game text or special abilities (although wording having a character "using" something is so rare that it might just be sloppiness/shorthand), but it feels weird for him to reach over the table and use They Stole It.

Lord_Burke81 · « **Reply #12 on:** March 12, 2009, 11:30:54 AM »

If you use the Elf card, either player cannot use any special abilities during the skirmish involving those two characters, which include "conditions, weapons, other characters, etc". But, you can still play skirmish events.

If im not mistaken, you cannot play play possessions from hand that have "play anytime you could play a skirmish event", because it is still a special ability.

-Mike

Thranduil · « **Reply #13 on:** March 12, 2009, 11:41:11 AM »

Quote from: Lord_Burke81 on March 12, 2009, 11:30:54 AM

If im not mistaken, you cannot play play possessions from hand that have "play anytime you could play a skirmish event", because it is still a special ability.

No, this is not true. Playing Long Spear is neither using a special ability (which has to have "Phase:" before it) nor an event.

And I'm also not sure that the wording on Crashing Cavalry is that rare or unique. Look at Servant of Another Master, for example. You can't tell me that SoAM stops you from using any special abilities in play? I am 100% sure that Crashing Cavalry only prevents the use of special abilities on the characters in question.

Thranduil

Gil-Estel · « **Reply #14 on:** March 12, 2009, 12:49:35 PM »

I'm sure that the characters in that skirmish can use neither their own special abilities as well as special abilities from other cards.

Thranduil · « **Reply #15 on:** March 12, 2009, 04:30:32 PM »

Quote from: Gil-Estel on March 12, 2009, 12:49:35 PM

I'm sure that the characters in that skirmish can use neither their own special abilities as well as special abilities from other cards.

Characters don't "use" special abilities on other cards; players do. Cards can only "use" abilities that are printed on them.

Thranduil

Elrohir · « **Reply #16 on:** March 12, 2009, 05:03:00 PM »

Furious Uruk tells us that possesions also seem to have special abilities... So, according to this, Elrond WtH may discard Vilya Ring of Air, although he was assigned by crashing cavalary.

Thranduil · « **Reply #17 on:** March 12, 2009, 05:17:25 PM »

Quote from: Elrohir on March 12, 2009, 05:03:00 PM

Furious Uruk tells us that possesions also seem to have special abilities... So, according to this, Elrond WtH may discard Vilya Ring of Air, although he was assigned by crashing cavalary.

Yes, I agree. He would not be able to put an

card on top of your draw deck, but Vilya can still use its special ability.

Thranduil

Elessar's Socks · « **Reply #18 on:** March 13, 2009, 07:47:52 PM »

Quote from: Thranduil on March 12, 2009, 11:41:11 AM

You can't tell me that SoAM stops you from using any special abilities in play?

IMO applying the other Crashing Cavalry interpretation to other phases would open up a can of worms. You can't exert a Grima'ed Dwarf for Shoulder to Shoulder, because a Dwarf is "doing something," but you can spot a Grima'ed

Man for Arrow-slits, because it's the player who's doing something? An implicit "in his or her game text" would sidestep the whole issue.

Lord_Burke81 · « **Reply #19 on:** March 14, 2009, 12:47:49 AM »

Either way you look at it - Crashing Cavalry stops the use of any Skirmish Special Ability, anywhere, during a Skirmish involving those characters (the same result of Faramir, SoD). The card would be worded differently, such as "may not use THEIR skirmish special abilities", and since it is not worded that way - it is a Global Effect - just like every other game Decipher makes.

Quote from: Thranduil on March 12, 2009, 05:17:25 PM

Quote from: Elrohir on March 12, 2009, 05:03:00 PM
Furious Uruk tells us that possesions also seem to have special abilities... So, according to this, Elrond WtH may discard Vilya Ring of Air, although he was assigned by crashing cavalary.
Yes, I agree. He would not be able to put an card on top of your draw deck, but Vilya can still use its special ability.

Thranduil

This is not the case, neither card may be used for its effect, as it is a skirmish special ability.

If this came up at a tourney or ToC I was running (in the past), that is how I would rule. I could be wrong, but since I dont talk to Mike Girard or Dan Bojo anymore I cant really ask a rules expert...

Elessar's Socks · « **Reply #20 on:** March 14, 2009, 01:48:09 AM »

Still curious about SoAM, then. When does the affected character "use" a non-skirmish phase ability? For example, There and Back Again--does the Hobbit ignore the strength +2 bonus? If Hawk keeps with his ruling, then that's how I roll, although non-skirmish phases don't seem so clear-cut to me.

Lord_Burke81 · « **Reply #21 on:** March 14, 2009, 12:38:15 PM »

Quote from: Elessar's Socks on March 14, 2009, 01:48:09 AM

Still curious about SoAM, then. When does the affected character "use" a non-skirmish phase ability? For example, There and Back Again--does the Hobbit ignore the strength +2 bonus? If Hawk keeps with his ruling, then that's how I roll, although non-skirmish phases don't seem so clear-cut to me.

See, this is what happens when you try and push sets out to make money when your loosing a liscense. They make cards, and dont see how they will fit into the rules, because they dont care - and we never got a Players committee to errata stuff!

Of course these two cards would never come to into question in a standard event (only open), but I would have to rule that "There and Back again" could still be used.

I think, that the idea was for Grima to be designed to target a character's specific ability - not global like Faramir. I think better wording for Grima would have been "their special abilities, until regroup phase".

all in all, just an opinion of a retired dAgent - which isnt much

-Mike

Thranduil · « **Reply #22 on:** March 15, 2009, 10:49:14 AM »

Quote from: Elessar's Socks on March 13, 2009, 07:47:52 PM

Quote from: Thranduil on March 12, 2009, 11:41:11 AM
You can't tell me that SoAM stops you from using any special abilities in play?
IMO applying the other Crashing Cavalry interpretation to other phases would open up a can of worms. You can't exert a Grima'ed Dwarf for Shoulder to Shoulder, because a Dwarf is "doing something," but you can spot a Grima'ed Man for Arrow-slits, because it's the player who's doing something? An implicit "in his or her game text" would sidestep the whole issue.

Shoulder to Shoulder is not a character using an ability, it's you as a player using a special ability. If Crashing Cavalry said "Conditions cannot use special abilities" could you use StS? Of course not. The source of an ability is the card that the ability is printed on, not any guy which you exert or spot to play it.

Thranduil

Elessar's Socks · « **Reply #23 on:** March 15, 2009, 01:39:19 PM »

Point is, Crashing Cavalry, SoAM, or the phrasing in general will need some kind of clarification.

If the ruling goes that "characters cannot use skirmish special abilities" = "no skirmish special abilities in their skirmish phases", then that applies to any skirmish special ability. It has to by definition, regardless of how we think it should work.

SoAM knocks this out of whack. Substitute another phase in there and you'd get "characters cannot use maneuver phase special abilities" = "no maneuver phase abilities in their maneuver phases", which is nonsensical. Either you somehow limit the characters involved, for example with this global/targeted stuff (introducing a new concept to LotR), or Grima shuts down all maneuver phase abilities, which I doubt is what Decipher intended.

Like I said, I think limiting this to the affected card's game text would solve the problem (or just errata Grima as Burke suggested), but that doesn't carry any weight.

Olorin · « **Reply #24 on:** March 15, 2009, 01:41:04 PM »

is there a difference between sauron's gaze and crashing cavalry?

I would say no special abilities may be used - neither the character nor his artifacts, possessions he/she bears nor another one in the support area, etc. may be used...

TheJord · « **Reply #25 on:** March 15, 2009, 02:00:04 PM »

Look I think we need to take the "spirit" of the card.

Crashing Cavalry says characters assigned to each other by its ability cannot use special abilites.

SoAM prevents characters using special abilities, so any ability that says "to make that companion...", "to do X to a minion skirmishing that companion".

This would seem the most intentful interpretation of the idea of these cards.

Anvar · « **Reply #26 on:** March 15, 2009, 04:23:41 PM »

No, a character using a special ability is when there is a special ability on the character. An ability on a card is not a character using an ability though it may affect any number of characters.

Anvar

Thranduil · « **Reply #27 on:** March 15, 2009, 04:35:46 PM »

Quote from: Olorin on March 15, 2009, 01:41:04 PM

is there a difference between sauron's gaze and crashing cavalry?

There is no difference. It's certainly very clear that Sauron's Gaze only negates special abilities on the character in question, and it proves my point about players "using" abilities on their cards. Cards, however, can only "use" abilities that are printed on them.

I am so 100% certain about this one, more than I've ever been about an arguable ruling before.

Thranduil

Lord_Burke81 · « **Reply #28 on:** March 15, 2009, 08:31:49 PM »

Quote from: Elessar's Socks on March 15, 2009, 01:39:19 PM

Point is, Crashing Cavalry, SoAM, or the phrasing in general will need some kind of clarification.

If the ruling goes that "characters cannot use skirmish special abilities" = "no skirmish special abilities in their skirmish phases", then that applies to any skirmish special ability. It has to by definition, regardless of how we think it should work.

SoAM knocks this out of whack. Substitute another phase in there and you'd get "characters cannot use maneuver phase special abilities" = "no maneuver phase abilities in their maneuver phases", which is nonsensical. Either you somehow limit the characters involved, for example with this global/targeted stuff (introducing a new concept to LotR), or Grima shuts down all maneuver phase abilities, which I doubt is what Decipher intended.

Like I said, I think limiting this to the affected card's game text would solve the problem (or just errata Grima as Burke suggested), but that doesn't carry any weight.

I agree with this entire statement, in the past and this "characters cannot use skirmish special abilities" = "no skirmish special abilities in their skirmish phases" is how the card has been ruled to be. Thus, IMHO, the only thing you can do during a skirmish involving this phrase is play events & such from hand - you cannot use any SKIRMISH gametext on any card on the table. But, you can use "response" cards

As far as Sauron's Gaze - the idea is the same, but it specifically targets the character's PRINTED abilities, not his weapons/conditions/etc.
A character does not gain abilities from his weapons/artifacts/conditions/etc, they are their own separate card. They are not the bearer of Sauron's Glaze, the character is. Now - if sauron's glaze played on a condition/weapon/artifact/ect - this would be different.

-Mike

MR. Lurtzy · « **Reply #29 on:** March 15, 2009, 09:29:25 PM »

I agree with Thranduil, as usual he is completely right.

Lord_Burke81 · « **Reply #30 on:** March 17, 2009, 02:02:27 PM »

Quote from: Thranduil on February 08, 2009, 05:05:23 PM

Quote from: HawkeyeSPF on February 08, 2009, 01:53:56 PM
He may use skirmish events during his skirmish, as they are not special abilities, but not his own text (during his or other skirmishes) or skirmish special abilities on conditions, artifacts, etc until the start of the regroup phase.
Hang on, the card says explicitly "Those characters may not use skirmish special abilities..." This applies only to special abilities that are written in the game text of those companions, no?

Thranduil

Thranduil,

I'm quite sorry, as you are totally correct with your ruling! I totally forgot about the part mentioning "your opponent" on Faramir. So basically - Crashing Cavalry, still allows you to use skirmish special abilities on other cards. My mistake - I wasn't reading into both cards enough!

-Mike

Thranduil · « **Reply #31 on:** March 17, 2009, 05:02:31 PM »

Quote from: Lord_Burke81 on March 17, 2009, 02:02:27 PM

Quote from: Thranduil on February 08, 2009, 05:05:23 PM
Quote from: HawkeyeSPF on February 08, 2009, 01:53:56 PM
He may use skirmish events during his skirmish, as they are not special abilities, but not his own text (during his or other skirmishes) or skirmish special abilities on conditions, artifacts, etc until the start of the regroup phase.
Hang on, the card says explicitly "Those characters may not use skirmish special abilities..." This applies only to special abilities that are written in the game text of those companions, no?

Thranduil

Thranduil,

I'm quite sorry, as you are totally correct with your ruling! I totally forgot about the part mentioning "your opponent" on Faramir. So basically - Crashing Cavalry, still allows you to use skirmish special abilities on other cards. My mistake - I wasn't reading into both cards enough!

-Mike

No need to apologise, you made some great points! I love a good argument, have a

Thranduil

Lord_Burke81 · « **Reply #32 on:** March 17, 2009, 05:59:29 PM »

Now the question is, how does Sauron's Glaze effect a character, that has a hand weapon, artifact & condition attached - all with special abilities?

I still think they are not considered 'that characters abilities', they are they're own, but I would like to hear from more people on that one.

Elessar's Socks · « **Reply #33 on:** March 17, 2009, 07:16:33 PM »

"Sauron's Glaze"--it totally fits the ability.

If the effect is limited to a character's game text, attached cards could still be used.

Kralik · « **Reply #34 on:** April 16, 2009, 11:48:56 AM »

So the final word on Crashing Calvary is that it nullifies only those characters' own special abilities until regroup?

Thranduil · « **Reply #35 on:** April 16, 2009, 12:17:32 PM »

Quote from: Kralik on April 16, 2009, 11:48:56 AM

So the final word on Crashing Calvary is that it nullifies only those characters' own special abilities until regroup?

Yes, indeed! Good to see you around, it's been a while!

Thranduil