lem0nhead
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« on: June 03, 2008, 07:51:39 AM » |
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This topic has been moved here after a little debate broke out in one of Thran's DC threads. I thought it merited some potential gameplay discussion, so here it is! 
- Dáin------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And you can spot Saruman with Servant of Sauron, so I'm not entirely sure what you mean. I mean exactly that mate, you cant spot Saruman using servant of sauron version, hes not a minion only a follower so if a card says spot saruman to play you cant use SoS it has be a minion version.
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« Last Edit: June 03, 2008, 08:29:37 AM by DáinIronfoot »
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Thranduil
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« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2008, 07:54:01 AM » |
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No, that's really not true. Saruman, Servant of Sauron, is Saruman in every sense of the word. Note that his title 'Saruman' is identical to all other minion versions of him. He also applies to the rule of 4, and so in all senses they have identical titles and therefore can be spotted instead of each other. You absolutely can play Saruman, Servant of Sauron then use Uruk Ravager to play him for reduced cost. Thranduil |
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« Last Edit: June 03, 2008, 07:57:55 AM by Thranduil »
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lem0nhead
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« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2008, 07:57:51 AM » |
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yeah i know he applies to the rule of 4 and he is called saruman for unique purposes but hes not "saruman" as in a minion. You cant play him out then always play cards that require saruman. Im sure ive read this somewhere, i wish i knew where it was....
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Thranduil
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« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2008, 08:00:18 AM » |
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No, his title is all that counts for that. You obviously can't exert him, for example, but he's Saruman. If I had a minion with the keyword 'Saruman', then he could also be spotted instead of cards that spot Saruman. Like if I had a card with the title 'Man' he could be spotted like a Man even if he was an Orc.
Thranduil
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« Last Edit: June 03, 2008, 08:02:32 AM by Thranduil »
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lem0nhead
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« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2008, 08:03:43 AM » |
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Im working on finding my evidence!
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lem0nhead
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« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2008, 08:13:08 AM » |
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From The Hunters rulebook: Follower is a new card type. A follower represents help for your fellowship that joins for a short time and then departs. Followers are not members of your fellowship. They are not allies or companions. They are not characters, although they are often named and depicted with images of people from the story. Even though a follower may seem as if it were an Elf or Hobbit or Wizard, it can't be spotted as such because a follower doesn't have a race on its card type line. Followers can't bear other cards, including possessions or conditions.
Im sure im coming from the fact that seeing as its not a character you cant spot saruman to play something if you only have the follower. He counts towards not being able to play another saruman and the rule of 4 but you cant "spot saruman to play...".
Wheres Bib when you need him...
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Thranduil
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« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2008, 08:15:19 AM » |
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No, that means Saruman cannot be spotted as a Wizard, so a minion bearing Servant of Sauron would not get the bonus from the Throne of Isengard (unless it was one of the deceived wizards). Saruman is still in play, however, and so can be spotted, so if you played SoS with the Throne in play, you could make a minion fierce as normal. Thranduil |
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lem0nhead
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« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2008, 08:16:58 AM » |
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Im still standing ground until someone else says otherwise, im SURE someone has discussed this before. How can you spot him as saruman hes not even a character!
Do you always manually type out "Thranduil" after every post? Doesnt that do your head in?
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DáinIronfoot
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« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2008, 08:19:25 AM » |
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yeah i know he applies to the rule of 4 and he is called saruman for unique purposes but hes not "saruman" as in a minion. You cant play him out then always play cards that require saruman. Im sure ive read this somewhere, i wish i knew where it was.... Hate to say it, my friend, but I'm 99.9% sure Thran is correct. Cards that spot "Saruman" simply spot the card title...it doesn't care WHAT type of card that "Saruman" actually is, as long as it's simply "Saruman" and not something like " Servants to Saruman". So a card spotting him can spot a minion, follower, or even conditions or artifacts or something if one existed with the title "Saruman". Now only a card with vitality (AKA a character...specifically a minion, in this case) can be exerted, yes, so cards like A Fell Voice On The Air can ONLY work with a minion Saruman, since it requires exerting. Cards like Their Arrows Enrage, however, can work with minion Sarumans OR follower Sarumans OR any other card titled "Saruman" since it requires simply spotting. |
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« Last Edit: June 03, 2008, 08:30:13 AM by DáinIronfoot »
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« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2008, 11:15:24 AM » |
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dangit someone get bibs email...or merrick hale either one would be nice now...
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Felipe Musco: (after all, it's a CHARITY organization, I still have SOME principles, even having gone through Law School...  ), Elf Lvr: Bit of a scrawny Iowan kid with an unhealthy artifact obsession. Oh, and a God of Spam. In a good way. Ahhh!!! SoP, you're a genius!!! ~Menace64 SoP's Trade ListLike Muscle Cars? Check out themusclecarplace.com |
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DáinIronfoot
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« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2008, 11:17:38 AM » |
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Have 'em both, and have e-mailed them both about this place...at least three times, I think. But I'll be trying them (and others) again very soon....
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TheJord
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« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2008, 05:02:34 PM » |
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I think that you can spot Saruman the follower for any card which says "spot Saruman". Obviously you cannot exert him, or play any cards (except WitD). |
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CarpeGuitarrem
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« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2008, 10:51:58 AM » |
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From The Hunters rulebook: Follower is a new card type. A follower represents help for your fellowship that joins for a short time and then departs. Followers are not members of your fellowship. They are not allies or companions. They are not characters, although they are often named and depicted with images of people from the story. Even though a follower may seem as if it were an Elf or Hobbit or Wizard, it can't be spotted as such because a follower doesn't have a race on its card type line. Followers can't bear other cards, including possessions or conditions.
Im sure im coming from the fact that seeing as its not a character you cant spot saruman to play something if you only have the follower. He counts towards not being able to play another saruman and the rule of 4 but you cant "spot saruman to play...".
Wheres Bib when you need him...
Actually, your quote supports Thranduil. The stated reason that Saruman can't be spotted as a Wizard, according to the rulebook is not because he's not a minion. It's because he doesn't have the Race keyword. The barrier is his lack of that keyword, not his non-minion-ness. His title has no similar barrier. Ergo, you can spot his title. |
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Shieldmaiden
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« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2008, 01:51:04 PM » |
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LOL, I asked a question here, but I have now figured out the answer, and now it seems a rather silly question.  Sorry about that. |
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« Last Edit: June 07, 2008, 01:55:04 PM by Shieldmaiden »
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Anvar
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« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2008, 01:40:15 PM » |
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Agree with Thran. Note that the Saruman follower cannot be given Saruman's Staff, despite the fact that it says bearer must be Saruman. This is because of the rule that Followers cannot bear cards. Anvar |
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MR. Lurtzy
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« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2008, 03:52:14 PM » |
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Ah, then what about whisper in the dark? Followers do seem to be able to bear cards. |
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Elessar's Socks
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« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2008, 04:12:56 PM » |
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Whisper in the Dark overrides that rule since it specifically allows a follower to bear it. Bit off-topic, but this reminds me of the debate over whether O Elbereth! Gilthoniel! allowed the Ring-bearer to cancel his skirmish (after the no-cancel rule was newly minted). IIRC the official stance was that LotR has no "Golden Rule" about cards overriding the rules. (So basically since O E! G! was printed before, obviously it wasn't supposed to work--but if it was printed after, it'd obviously be meant to?) The rulebook maintains "As skirmishes involving the Ring-bearer cannot be canceled..." as its reasoning, but eh... generally cards > rules.
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Thranduil
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« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2008, 08:33:58 AM » |
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I have a feeling that Whisper in the Dark was a card they made without any thought whatsoever - mainly because of its total lack of cultural reinforcement, ridiculous combo with Servant of Sauron, and direct contradiction of the rules... Thranduil |
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DáinIronfoot
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« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2008, 08:38:37 AM » |
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Wait, you mean Decipher got LAZY near the end and made cards that blatantly showed that? Heresy!  |
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Elessar's Socks
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« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2008, 03:05:36 PM » |
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Pft. Wish they'd done the same with White Hand Sieger. I thought taking control of a site was a requirement to play it. I was in the midst of getting the cards for an awesome Land Had Changed deck, when a post on CC finally set me right.  |
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« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2008, 08:31:26 PM » |
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I thought taking control of a site was a requirement to play it. I was in the midst of getting the cards for an awesome Land Had Changed deck, when a post on CC finally set me right. That's what it seems to say... what does it mean, then? |
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Elessar's Socks
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« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2008, 09:14:20 PM » |
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As in, you must have a site controlled before you can play it; I was thinking when you play it, you must take control of a site.
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MR. Lurtzy
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« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2008, 09:27:09 PM » |
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that would be highly broken.
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