Order...

[Kralik]

Order is one of those things that is always tricky for me.

If Gollum wins a skirmish, can you use Incited to take Nasty, Foul Hobbitses into hand and play it? At what point can you no longer use the Response:?

[Elessar's Socks]

Sure, you can respond as many times as you want to a certain trigger, as long as the given situation doesn't change.

If Gollum wins a skirmish, you can play Nasty, Foul Hobbitses, use Incited to pull it back, and play NFH again. All of these are responding to Gollum winning a skirmish.

You can even go off on tangents by responding to responses. For example if your opponent responds to You're a Liar and a Thief with Intimidate, after that resolves you "collapse" back to the state of Gollum winning a skirmish, so you can play another YaLaaT.

But as mentioned some responses alter the situation so you can't play more of the same trigger. This is often the case with responses using "about." For example if you play Intimidate ("If a companion is about to take a wound, spot Gandalf to prevent that wound"), you can't respond afterward to the same wound with a second Intimidate because the wound has already been prevented. There is no longer an "about to take a wound" state.

And of course, if all players successively decline to play responses, then the game state moves on. At that point it's too late to respond to the previous game state.

[Kralik]

Very detailed and better than I expected... lots of potential then with Stinker, Incited, Nasty, Foul Hobbitses, and Hidden Even from Her...

[SomeRandomDude]

Although why you would prefer it over YaLaaT....

[Kralik]

I still like a burdening Gollum better than a wounding Ninja Gollum.

[DáinIronfoot]

That's why Gollum is so awesome. He can pile on threats, burdens, wounds, twilight.... Whenever your Shadow needs a good engine for one thing in particular, Gollum is usually a good place to look.

I prefer a threat-manipulating Gollum myself. Captured By The Ring, Fat One Wants It, So Polite, Plotting, Countless Cords, Menace, Vile Creature and/or Threatening Guide...delicious fun.

[SomeRandomDude]

Just plain obliteration for me.

Not This Time/They Stole It, Promise Keeping and YaLaaT please.

[Pepin The Breve]

I still have some doubt about this cause Incited don´t have the magic boldword saying "Response:". So i´m wondering if you still can use it´s game text cause first you win the skirmish (the companions lose in the case) so the text of Incited kicks in and you get the event from discard... After that you can´t use nasty foul hobbits cause the sittuation it respondes no longer exist (the skirmish have already ended...

This is what i think altought i´m not sure...

If you are right then the combo with burdens or wounds it´s just killer!

[Elessar's Socks]

Incited doesn't change the "loses/wins a skirmish" state when the action is resolved. Response actions are only a part of what can respond to a trigger, and it's not necessary to resolve them first or chain them in an unbroken line. Basically the situation only changes when both players decline to take optional actions (which like Incited aren't necessarily a Response action), or the trigger is replaced with something else ("about... instead").

[Elf_Lvr]

Well, over at CC I remember a ruling that Incited HAD to trigger before YaLaaT, coming from the conclusion that "Each time" triggers before "Response." No, I don't remember the reasoning BEHIND "each time" triggering before "response," but one OUGHT to come definitely before the other, don't you think?

I *think* the logic would go something like this:

An "each time" action triggers every time you win a skirmish, and gives you a choice whether or not to perform said action "each time something happens, you may do something to do something else." It triggers every time, but gives you a choice, so I'd suppose that it'd be the first thing to happen once a skirmish is resolved, and "won," because it happens without the player telling it to, then you make your choice, eh?

Then I'd assume that response actions, which do not automatically trigger but are responses (obviously) performed by the player, would activate after "each time" actions. Seem plausible?

All I know is it's straight not right to play YaLaaT and take it back AND THEN have the opportunity to play it again.

Also, I think (I could be as woefully incorrect as the above statement probably is) that you cannot use Promise Keeping when you wound a companion with YaLaaT, under the assumption that once you've "won" the skirmish, it's already over and outside of the skirmish phase.

Although I do think it triggers with threat wounds (and obviously with companions taking wounds) because a skirmish is not technically over until wounds have been taken, companions placed in the dead pile, etc.

No I'm not making this up. I swear I read it over at CC at one point or another...

[Elessar's Socks]

I guess it's a little weird because "Each time" sounds mandatory, but "Each time... you may..." is not a mandatory action with a choice of whether to proceed. The "may" turns it into an optional action with no priority over other optional actions such as playing a response event.

So I think of it as, Gollum wins a skirmish. You have the opportunity to perform an optional action responding to this trigger. Incited ("Each time a companion loses a skirmish") and YaLaaT ("Response: If Gollum wins a skirmish") are both available as optional actions. You get to choose which one to perform first.

...If I'm totally mistaken about this now would be a good time to let me know!

Promise Keeping works with YaLaaT because it's still during a skirmish (phase); a skirmish phase doesn't end until all actions triggered by winning/losing that skirmish have resolved.

[Elf_Lvr]

Okay, I can see the logic on that one.

I wish there was something in the CRD about this, instead of D leaving it up to the players to argue over the best logical explanation.

It DOES seem a bit wrong to be able to play YaLaaT, take it back, and play it again, though. That seems really broken to me. Regardless of which action you may/may not perform first it seems odd to mix-and-match them to pull off something like that.

[Elessar's Socks]

Well the timing should check out. Those would be three optional actions responding to the same trigger.

Agreed it's powerful, though. With Promise Keeping in play you could kill a 3-vitality companion that wasn't even assigned to a skirmish. Although you could do the same with 2 copies of YaLaaT in hand, but Incited just makes it easier to pull off.

[Elf_Lvr]

Victor of skirmish decided.
Mandatory actions (incl taking a wound).
Optional actions.

Mandatory actions - "Each time" actions

Optional actions - "Response", and "Skirmish" abilities with winning a skirmish as a cost (in some rare cases losing may be the cost)

THIS is what I was trying to say.

Each Time comes before Response because it is a mandatory action. The "may" has nothing to do with it.

When Gollum wins a skirmish, Incited triggers each time. Its ability then gives you a choice - to exert Gollum, or to not - but the triggering was mandatory, nonetheless. Since the CHOICE was a mandatory action, it comes before optional actions, like taking a response.

Thusly, Incited triggers first.

[Elessar's Socks]

From the entry under "action":

"Every action is either optional or required. An optional action is defined as: an action that uses the word "may," an event, or a special ability. All other actions are required actions."

I guess I'm just not seeing it in the rulebook, but where does it say "Each time" is defined as a required action?