Followers Returning to the Support Area

[Alazzar]

I used to play Worlds Apart's LotR Online game quite a bit, and I recently cracked it back open to play a few games.  I'd quit before Followers came out, so I don't have any online, but found myself playing against them.

Now, in the rulebook, it says that a Follower returns to the support area (after being transferred to a character) when the Free Peoples player reconciles.  I can't find anything in the CRD or Comprehensive rulebook that says otherwise.

But in the online game, Followers transfer back at the start of the Regroup phase (or maybe it was when the player chooses to double-move, or something... not sure).  I asked the guy I was playing with if it was a bug, and he said that they'd changed the ruling so that Followers went back every move, or something.  Does anyone know if that's true?  I have a feeling it's actually just a bug in the online game, as there's no one around at Worlds Apart that cares to fix those anymore.

So... what's the verdict?  Did Decipher really make some ruling that changes when Followers are transferred, or should they be sent back when the FP player reconciles?

[Thranduil]

This is not true. Followers go back to the support area when the fellowship stops moving.

Thranduil

[Alazzar]

Good to know, thanks.  Just another bug of the online game, I guess.  =P

[Not a Zombie]

but it says that it is when you reconcile, so would a card like lembas trigger it?

[Thranduil]

No. It's when you reconcile because you've stopped moving.

Thranduil

[Alazzar]

Yeah, the Hunters rulebook specifically states:

"During the regroup phase, when the Free Peoples player reconciles and minions are discarded, each follower is transferred back to the support area (at no cost)."

So, unfortunately, Lembas won't work, as the rules specify that it happens when the FP player reconciles AND minions are discarded.

[jdizzy001]

holy cow, I thought they were transfered back at the end of each regroup phase!

[Not a Zombie]

Now to really mess with you: out of the high airs + lembas j/k

[legolas3333]

technically ancient blade could trigger it right

[Thranduil]

technically ancient blade could trigger it right

No it can't! Just because it happens to reconcile your hand and discard a minion does not make it the time in the regroup phase when the Free Peoples player reconciles and minions are discarded. This happens when the FP player decides not to move again.

Thranduil

[TheJord]

This is an example where I could say "all elephants are gray, so all gray things are elephants"

This is obviously not the case

[NappyKorn]

This is an example where I could say "all elephants are gray, so all gray things are elephants"

This is obviously not the case

On the contrary not all elephants are gray.



this one is white, LOL.

[TheJord]

You spent an hour looking for this didnt you

[NappyKorn]

Nah just a quick google image search for albino elephant. Was on 3rd page I believe.

[Gate Troll]

It looks pink to me. J/K

[jdizzy001]

me too.  Pink elephants, didn't the simpsons have some joke about that

[Ranhothep]

Hey guys, I have another question regarding the followers. Is it possible to pay the aid cost and transfer a follower from a companion to another? The aid text doesnt specify, where the follower has to be in order to be transferred to another companion... thanx in advance

[Thranduil]

No - it has to come from your support area. Sometimes those helper texts don't contain all the information (such as for toil which does not specify on the cards that you can only exert your own characters).

Thranduil

[Gil-Estel]

Hey guys, I have another question regarding the followers. Is it possible to pay the aid cost and transfer a follower from a companion to another? The aid text doesnt specify, where the follower has to be in order to be transferred to another companion... thanx in advance

The followers are played to your support area, and are given the text: at the start. That implies a single action only.

[TheJord]

The rulebook is not clear on this, although it seems to agree with Thranduil's assessment.

[MuadDib85]

No - it has to come from your support area. Sometimes those helper texts don't contain all the information (such as for toil which does not specify on the cards that you can only exert your own characters).

Thranduil

Disagree.

If the free peoples player double moves you CAN transfer a follower from one character to another at the start of the next manuever phase.

Eg. First manuever phase transfer woodhall elf to legolas, draw 3 cards, then choose to double move and at the next site you can transfer woodhall elf from legolas to galadriel at the start of the next manuever phase and draw another 3 cards.

No where does it say that followers have to be transfered from your support area.. Only that it has to be the start of manuever phase.

[legolas3333]

I think maudi is correct but you can only transfer once at the start of maneuver so you could transfer woodhall elf from legolas to galadriel but not back to legolas

[Elessar's Socks]

As I understand it, followers can't be transferred from one character to another via aid keyword. I see "you may pay the aid cost to transfer that follower to your companion" as an explanation of how to get it out of your support area. Otherwise I'm thinking "between" would've been added as well (the kind of wording used in the transfer entry).

[Thranduil]

I completely agree with ES. I am 99.9% certain that the aid cost transfers followers only from your support area - this is how I've been playing it and how everyone I know has always played it.

Thranduil

[MuadDib85]

I believe you guys are wrong on this one.

It does not say anywhere that aid has anything to do with your support area..
Nor does it say that followers must be transferred from your support area..

All that it states is that you must pay the aid cost at the start of the manuever phase (Which there is only one of unless you double move.

Please show me some text saying otherwise.. Because I don't think there is anything written that backs up your claims..

[MuadDib85]

Then again.. There is nothing that says you can transfer from companion to companion if you double move either.. So once again decipher have let us down.

It does say that followers can NOT bear other cards including possessions and conditions.. So where does that leave whispers in the dark? Another useless card like frenzy of arrows?

My side of the transfering from companion to companion debate comes from Smallman who prides himself on being one of the only people to know all of the rules properly, and I have seen him do it with woodhall elf to draw the extra 3 cards when double moving.. I did question him at the time and he assured me that it was allowed..

The Jord's post above is the closest thing we have to a definative ruling: the rulebook is not clear.

[RedGoldStag]

The most relevant information I could find is this quote from the "Aid" entry on page 38 of the Hunters starter rulebook:

"The follower is borne by the companion for the rest of the turn, no matter how often your fellowship moves."

Certainly not indisputable (especially given contradictions like the whole "followers can't bear other cards" vs. Whisper in the Dark issue), but I think this supports the "no transferring from companion to companion" argument.

[Alazzar]

The most relevant information I could find is this quote from the "Aid" entry on page 38 of the Hunters starter rulebook:

"The follower is borne by the companion for the rest of the turn, no matter how often your fellowship moves."

Certainly not indisputable (especially given contradictions like the whole "followers can't bear other cards" vs. Whisper in the Dark issue), but I think this supports the "no transferring from companion to companion" argument.

I just looked at that too, but I'm not sure it's conclusive enough to solidify an argument (as you said).  The problem is, this excerpt you referenced falls under the, "If the rules and the cards argue, go with the cards" rule.  I mean, if we didn't go by that rule, then the excerpt you referenced would make it so Sam, Bearer of Great Need couldn't use his ability.  Sam is an example of the cards trumping the rules.

Similarly, since all followers say "Do X to transfer this to a companion," they've got text built-in that tells you to ignore the "... borne by the companion for the rest of the turn" line.  The rule is saying that a Follower stays until the end of the turn, but both Sam's text and the text on every Follower are saying, "Actually, we have an exception to that."

Basically, it's been established that this is something Decipher should have covered in a CRD, but didn't.  Since there's no official ruling on it, we can only go by what we know, no matter how wrong it may seem:

1.  The cards say you can transfer them at the start of the maneuver phase.

2.  The cards never say that they can't be transferred from one companion to another.

3.  The cards never specify that the transfer even comes from the support area in the first place.

4.  The rulebook never indicates that followers must be transferred from the support area.

Honestly, I think that followers weren't intended to transfer from one companion to the next.  But going purely by what information we have, it would seem that it's technically legal, as there's not any actual evidence telling us that we can't -- only a "hunch" that many of us have.

[Elessar's Socks]

Checked the CC forums, and it was ruled there that transferring in the next maneuver phase was allowed (threads here and here). I guess technically legal is the way to go here.

[Thranduil]

I can't find a comprehensive rules entry on followers, but I think the Hunters starter rulebook is actually very clear on this issue:

Aid
This keyword has the form of "Aid – X," where "X" is the cost to use the aid keyword. You use the aid keyword as a maneuver action. At the start of the maneuver phase, you may pay the aid cost to transfer that follower to your companion. Place it beneath the card, just like a possession or condition borne by that companion. The follower is borne by the companion for the rest of the turn, no matter how often your fellowship moves. You don't have to pay the aid cost again for a follower borne by a companion in a subsequent maneuver phase.

This seems very obviously to suggest that you can't transfer followers between companions.

Thranduil

[Alazzar]

Thranduil, that's what RedGoldStag and I were talking about a few posts above.  However, if we go by that rule, then Sam, Bearer of Great Need couldn't use his ability, right?

However, we KNOW he can use his ability, because a specific ruling on a card always trumps a ruling in the rulebook (with the exception of errata and clarifications, of course).  This would leave the Follower cards themselves in the same boat -- they specifically say on the card that they can be transferred at the start of the maneuver phase.  That means that if you choose to take their action again on the second maneuver phase, their game text should theoretically trump the rule in the book.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Followers were INTENDED to work that way, but it seems that's how they are.

[Thranduil]

But I don't think that BoGN is a contradiction of what the rulebook says, and is certainly no grounds for letting other cards override the rules when it doesn't specify. I and RGS and you quoted a section about aid costs from the Starter Rulebook (and sorry I didn't look close enough to see the earlier post) and so this defines the aid rules. If the helper text isn't completely clear, then that doesn't change how the rules work - just like in the case of toil. If you look at toil cards with helper text, it does not specify that you can only exert your own characters, but in the rulebook it does. This is not the cards contradicting the rules (because helper text isn't game text) it is just incomplete helper text. In my view, this is exactly the same thing that is happening in the case of followers - the rules appear to be very clear about aid costs, and a helper text can't override these rules.

Thranduil

[Alazzar]

Before I continue, for the record, I just wanna repeat that I think followers probably weren't INTENDED to go from one companion to another.

But that doesn't mean I won't keep arguing that point, 'cause, hey... I like arguing.  =P

I think it's possible that the line from the rulebook ("The follower is borne by the companion for the rest of the turn, no matter how often your fellowship moves") could just be telling the player that there's no built-in mechanic that sends the Follower back to the support area.  So, in other words, it could just as easily say, "Unless either player does something about it, the Follower will continue being borne by the companion for the rest of the turn, no matter how often your fellowship moves."

And we know there are things that a player CAN do to prevent that from happening -- they could use Sam, BoGN to transfer a Follower back to the support area, or the Shadow player could discard the Follower with Ill News is an Ill Guest, or whatever.  And, similarly, they could just pay the aid cost and transfer again, because there's nothing in the rulebook saying you can't transfer from one companion to another, or that you can't transfer an already-transferred Follower.

Once again, just playing devil's advocate here, but I think it's entirely possible that the line in question could be interpreted to mean, "This is what happens to Followers on a double-move if the players leave them alone.  But, obviously, there are things that can be done to them."

[jdizzy001]

I'm with thranduil on this one. The follower is borne by the companion for the rest of the turn, no matter how often your fellowship moves.