condition discarding

[Kralik]

I'm fairly positive that Frodo CH does not affect DDotR. They have to complete one or the other (sort of like the Boromir BoC and Armor dilemma).

[ket_the_jet]

Kralik is right about Frodo, Courteous Halfling. The Free Peoples player chooses to discard or add a burden.
-wtk

[Elessar's Socks]

Right, though DDotR does not apply to the line I mentioned ("...that make you discard..."), because the discard there is offered as a choice. Just looking here at the wording for what Frodo CH does work against, which I think further supports that the source of the effect (the Shadow card) is what's important here.

[Ranhothep]

Going back to the question though, I believe as well that Deceit can't be used. That's Two is targetting the shadow player, not a condition, it isn't discarding anything it is forcing the shadow player to take an action.

[Thranduil]

Going back to the question though, I believe as well that Deceit can't be used. That's Two is targetting the shadow player, not a condition, it isn't discarding anything it is forcing the shadow player to take an action.

That's Two isn't targetting anything. The fact is the condition getting discarded is due to That's Two. Therefore it is a "Free Peoples player's card". Therefore it can be saved by Deceit. This I am 100% certain is the case.

Thranduil

[Alazzar]

My word likely doesn't mean much, but I'll jump in and put my opinion on the side of "Deceit CAN be used."

I mean, That's Two is the source of the discard -- the rulebook specifically says that the source of an effect is the card on which that effect is printed.  So, in this case, a Free Peoples card is discarding a Gollum condition. 

I don't get what the problem is.  =P

[argyles]

deceit shouldnt trigger from that's two (neither brc ) . That's two makes the shadow player discard a card . If the shadow player choses that card to be a gollum condition then the fp card is not responsible for the condition discarding but the choice of the shadow player is.

[Thranduil]

deceit shouldnt trigger from that's two (neither brc ) . That's two makes the shadow player discard a card . If the shadow player choses that card to be a gollum condition then the fp card is not responsible for the condition discarding but the choice of the shadow player is.

Well it really does - Alazzar is right.

This is a direct quote from the comprehensive rulebook:

The source of an effect is the card on which that effect is printed. Even though a card like an event may require a minion to exert to pay its cost, the source of that effect is the event card and not the minion.

[jdizzy001]

Then why does the text of noakes negate if the fp is given a choice?  I don't understand the difference between noakes and that's two

[Elessar's Socks]

Might help to compare Old Noakes with Melilot Brandybuck and Sam, Samwise the Brave.

DDotR hits. If you choose to discard, you don't get to use Old Noakes because the discard was offered as a choice. The source is still a Shadow card, but it did not "make" you discard.

However, you do get to use Melilot (if you go with the burden) because all Melilot cares about is the source. A burden is about to be added by a Shadow card (whether it's DDotR giving you this choice or IWtBF making you do it), and that's good enough for her.

Deceit, like Melilot, also only considers the souce.

[Thranduil]

The keywords here are "makes you" ie. if you did not have a choice to do otherwise. You'll notice that there are no other similar effects with those precise words (I'm pretty sure) which is why Melilot Brandybuck and Samwise the Brave work fine.

I think it's actually a bit of a stupid ruling, but nevertheless it is only those two words that makes the cases different.

Thranduil

[jdizzy001]

Sorry guys, but I still am not buying it.  That's two! says Spot Gimli and exert a fellowship companion to have each Shadow player discard one of his or her Shadow cards from play.  It doesn't insinuate a condition and from my pov negates deceit which reads If a Free Peoples player's card is about to discard your other [GOLLUM] condition, remove (1) to prevent that. I'm not trying to be a pest, I just really don't understand.

[TheJord]

The effect is discarding a condition...right?

Quote

The source of an effect is the card on which that effect is printed. Even though a card like an event may require a minion to exert to pay its cost, the source of that effect is the event card and not the minion.

[sharkey]

I think everyone pretty much agrees with TheJord... Deceit can be used. That's Two! is doing the discarding, even though it is giving the Shadow Player a choice about what to discard. It is not going to be discarded otherwise. I only see this type of situation as questionable when it goes something like this: That's Two! is played, and the cost payed. The Shadow player chooses to discard a card that causes a condition to also be discarded when the orignal card leaves play. Is Deceit usable? I'd say no, but it's on the same vague level, just leaning the other way (that deceit can't be used).

[TheJord]

The only time you could circumvent Deceit is to use Heights of Isengard, as its the site doing the discarding, which isnt a Free Peoples card.