Merits of a PC

[Kenddrick]

I guess people can just migrate to the PC website that has been up-and-running since that whole talk started three years ago.
-wtk

Anyways, overreaction? Maybe you could use that "loads of money per hour" to create, moderate, and frequent the Players' Committee Website.

Why are you always targeting the PC? People are trying hard to get it up and running and you are always mocking it.

[ket_the_jet]

Why are you always targeting the PC? People are trying hard to get it up and running and you are always mocking it.

I'll let jerba handle it for me:

...a dead game...

Frankly, I think it is a dumb idea. But that's nothing new, is it?
-wtk

[Kenddrick]

Frankly, I think it is a dumb idea. But that's nothing new, is it?
-wtk

One man's opinion.

[Jerba]

Disclaimer: Jerba does not endorse the use of his words in any campaign against the creation of a PC.

[SomeRandomDude]

Why are you always targeting the PC? People are trying hard to get it up and running and you are always mocking it.

I'll let jerba handle it for me:

...a dead game...

Frankly, I think it is a dumb idea. But that's nothing new, is it?
-wtk

Or you could quit harassing people who want to try to go somewhere with the game. I've kinda moved onto other stuff, so I kinda don't care...I don't get why anyone would oppose it though. Seems like you'd either support it or not care.

[MR. Lurtzy]

Some of us don't want the game to be ruined (although I support a limited PC).

[ket_the_jet]

Seems like you'd either support it or not care.

If I thought that it would do any more good than harm, I'd be indifferent. But I honestly think that it is doing harm to the community by blurring the way to actually increase the gamer count. If you want new players, go out and introduce yourself and teach them the game.

It's a lot easier than it sounds with simple coercion. "Hey, coworker, want to come to my place after work for a beer?" Bam. That's one potential player.

"Hey, local card store owner, if you stocked these products, would you give out a promo card every time someone bought a pack (or three). Here is a collection of my spare promos and rares (or commons and uncommons to those with a smaller collection). Have them sign a list and let's host a tournament!"

Be #$&*@! grassroots. Love you, Kenddrick, but a PC isn't bringing me any closer to anyone in Singapore. Hop on GCCG, and I'll play you there though.

So in short, people who could be actively helping their community's gamers are wasting resources on pipe dreams.
-wtk

[chompers]

Ket - see here we are on the other side of the fence thinking that the opposition is doing more harm than good. Perhaps both sides of the fence need to look at each others arguments and then we work together to achieve a common goal.

In the end, the lack of cohesion amongst members on this forum is doing more harm than good. Both parties are at fault because we can't work out how to work together.

You see when I first started using these boards I loved LOTR. But my experiences using these boards have not always been positive. As a result, I am starting to move away from LOTR. From my perspective, this lack of cohesion is doing more harm than good. I can't speak for anyone else however.

I believe so strongly in a PC because I stopped playing Star Trek CCG when Decipher lost its licence. I played Star Trek right from its infancy in 1994, ran tournaments, everything really. Two years later, I found out that Star Trek was still alive and kicking and supported by a strong PC which was releasing new v-cards, errata for broken combos, rules support, tournament support, and so on. I thought to myself "wow - i can keep playing Star Trek and the game will continue to evolve." I am a sucker for new playing experiences (I am not saying LOTR doesn't do this, in fact with so many formats it is probably one of its strengths. The format issue also provides one of the biggest barriers to moving forward.

To summarise, I now spend most of my time playing Star Trek and that is only because there is an active Star Trek community in my area. That community is active because Star Trek has an active PC. But I still care enough about LOTR to keep coming back here, hoping that something may have changed, and the lack of cohesion may have come to an end.

After 6 months or more on arguing and being inflexible towards other peoples points of view perhaps it is time we all put our heads together in a positive way, put differences aside, and work out how to stop this division. If we all work together, the future of LOTR is better than if we all oppose each other.

[MR. Lurtzy]

There is no problem in promoting the game, and tourneys. I think it could be possible to have a PC for that, but it would not be absolutely necessary. And there should be no rules changes, bannings, or new cards. As long as any of those bolded items are in the goals of the PC, I will vehemently oppose it.

[ket_the_jet]

Star Trek: took a PC to get you into it.

LotR: No PC necessary.

Flawed argument, as this site seemed to do the trick itself.
-wtk

[Kralik]

rules changes, bannings, or new cards.

This is what people commonly think of when they want a PC. Everyone can promote the game, a "committee" makes the rules.

[MR. Lurtzy]

Exactly, which is why I oppose it.

[MuadDib85]

And there should be no rules changes, bannings, or new cards.

Agreed.

This is the only reason I would not want a PC.

[ket_the_jet]

People who support the PC should want everything. People who want a so-called "limited PC" have it right here. A place for members of the LotR community to meet worldwide and trade, play (via GCCG), and interact. You can promote your tournaments and whatnot here. I don't see what this doesn't accomplish that a "limited PC" would.
-wtk

[ket_the_jet]

Oh, and for those who suggest that large, world-wide tournaments are a possibility, look at the limited success that Smeagollum is having trying to get something going in May (>8 participants)* and Hawkeye got zero interest at GenCon (nerd central...you would think a few people would want to show).

Either way, if you host your "Worlds" in the Washington DC Metropolitan area, I'll show (Movie Block only), but otherwise, find me on GCCG because I'm not going to travel to Zaire to play cards.
-wtk

Edit: * Smeagollum: That's not to say I want your event to fail. I actually want a lot of people to show up and then they can come to the site and play on GCCG and I have competition there!
-wtk

[chompers]

Thanks for reinforcing my point - division between the members of this site and inflexibility towards others opinions will continue to hinder the growth of the game. It amazes me that a forum having nothing to do with the PC often end up discussing the PC. Why is that?

It is easy to find a flaw in someone's argument if that is your agenda but you need to support it with a better argument. Star Trek did not take a PC to get me into the game, but i did return to it because it exists. I got back into LOTR also because this site exists, but have since moved on.

The PC for Star Trek has enabled it to have a far bigger future than what LOTR currently has - current up-to-date rulings, v-cards, new playing formats, tournaments, world championships ... the list goes on. Players can still elect to play without v-cards, errata cards, the old formats still exists if you choose to use them. LOTR does not have to have all of this but some of it might benefit even those of you that currently oppose a PC. This site does not provide any of these elements.

[chompers]

Oh, and for those who suggest that large, world-wide tournaments are a possibility, look at the limited success that Smeagollum is having trying to get something going in May (>8 participants)* and Hawkeye got zero interest at GenCon (nerd central...you would think a few people would want to show).

Either way, if you host your "Worlds" in the Washington DC Metropolitan area, I'll show (Movie Block only), but otherwise, find me on GCCG because I'm not going to travel to Zaire to play cards.
-wtk

Edit: * Smeagollum: That's not to say I want your event to fail. I actually want a lot of people to show up and then they can come to the site and play on GCCG and I have competition there!
-wtk

Large scale tournaments are a possibility. Star Trek World's are on this year in Germany. I know many players that will be travelling there. I also know many players that will not.

LOTR does not have a World's. Why? No PC. The game is finished and not evolving, and this does not attract players.

The variables here are two-fold. One - different game. Two - no PC. So the question is, does LOTR not have Worlds because it does not have a PC or because it is a different game? I am sure you could argue both sides of that fence and if you look deep enough find other variables.

[ket_the_jet]

...current up-to-date rulings, v-cards, new playing formats...

But this is exactly what people don't want. You have people like MuadDib and Mr. Lurtzy and Gil-Estel who only think a PC should be about promoting the game, which I suggest this site does just fine (presuming that the users take a little initiative).

Then you have people like myself who say, well, if people want a PC just to promote the game, why even make a PC? I can go out to my own local area and bring people in myself.

I would suggest that the number of people who do not want to see errata and v-cards well outweighs those who do. And even if a PC is created "just to promote the game," what's to stop the group from advancing their own agendas?

People seem to be relying on this PC thing to do what they should be out doing themselves. Playing people, giving away cards, teaching the game, and having fun. A website isn't going to do that. What makes you so much more motivated to teach people the game with a website?

I like this place and I like GCCG. That is all.

...and...check.
-wtk

[ket_the_jet]

I mean, and I don't want to hit below the belt, but don't people have better things to do than to orchestrate the creation and maintain a Players' Committee?

I appreciate this little haven to waste time and enjoy a hobby, but that's all this really is...a game. There are a few people I've met here that I quite like, some that I'd consider internet acquaintances, and I dislike no one more than the other (I suppose...) but when it comes down to it, I'm going to treat this like a hobby and that's all.

...and...checkmate.
-wtk

[Smeagollum]

KTJ is partiately right it seems very difficult to get people warm for a bigger tournament. Reason for this is time, money and distance. People are not willing to invest in that for a dead game. That said it's awkward that people are paying a lot of money for some cards on ebay. Seeing the reactions on this forum I sometimes get the impression that we do not know these persons who bought these cards. So there still seems to be a market. That said I was disapointed at Gil-Estel's tournament. I think there were about 15 players (which was good), but I had the impression that some of the returned players only returned to sell their cards or to trade them for magic or wow......

An active pc however could bring back the game to life again. A good example is startrek. But if I look at Middle earth it seems there's a lot of inactivity. Not sure about starwars but last time I visited their forum there was a lot of inactivity as well.
 
If I look on these forums then I see there is a lot of talk about a pc, but when someone is putting efford in it then it get a lot of cheer in the beginning, but when it comes to develop an organization then there's not so much response. I know at least someone who lost his inspiration for creating a pc.
Also there's a big difference in opinion about which way the game should evolve; think about restricting or banning cards, organizing tournaments and or v-cards.

Also we lose a lot of people because they getting older; they start a family or they have lesser time due to work. It's easier for people if they just study and have not that much responsabilities. (Btw.. does anyone know where The Jord is?)

So if you want to get this game alive then you should put some efford into it, but somehow I don't see that to happen, which is unfortunate.

[Gil-Estel]

I agree with Ket, which is not a surprise to some I guess. When LotR was still active, still alive, I wasn't a tournament player. I am really satisfied with what I have right now. I do not need a worldwide rivival of the game, since I didn't participate when I could. This site serves my interest the best. Connecting with others who like to play. If I have to travel for it, sure, I have fun. I will go to Paris somewhere this year to meet Enola and play him. Just because I can, and I like the person. If Germany is going to organize an event, I will probably go again. But not only for the love of the game, since GCCG offers me more games and less difficulty, since I don't have to travel. I like to meet other people, I like the interaction.
So I kinda use this site to mobalize people to look eachother up, not to teach others. I have a close friend, fond of games, but never taught him lotr. This will be done in the future, but it shows my priority

Oh and I love all of you the same

[Smeagollum]

@ Gil-Estel... Komt Enola naar Amsterdam eigenlijk?

[MR. Lurtzy]

Oh and I love all of you the same

Now I can sleep tonight.

[Witchkingx5]

@ Gil-Estel... Komt Enola naar Amsterdam eigenlijk?

Muahaha, German is so similar, it means: "Kommt Enola eigentlich nach Ansterdam?" in German...

[Smeagollum]

@ Gil-Estel... Komt Enola naar Amsterdam eigenlijk?

Muahaha, German is so similar, it means: "Kommt Enola eigentlich nach Ansterdam?" in German...

Sehr gut, mein freund! Oftewel: Zeer goed, beste vriend

[Witchkingx5]

@ Gil-Estel... Komt Enola naar Amsterdam eigenlijk?

Muahaha, German is so similar, it means: "Kommt Enola eigentlich nach Ansterdam?" in German...

Sehr gut, mein freund! Oftewel: Zeer goed, beste vriend

Si ifme mom agreesto the location or we find something else, communication won't be a problem, then!

[TelTura]

funny how a topic that starts out complaining about psuedo-english pranks ends like the above.

[Smeagollum]

funny how a topic that starts out complaining about psuedo-english pranks ends like the above.

Hahahahahaha

[Jerba]

Some of us don't want the game to be ruined (although I support a limited PC).

Then you should have quit before Shadows.

[Kralik]

I doubt that a PC would "ruin" the game at all... if you didn't like their decisions, you and your friends would still be more than welcome to play by other rules.

[ket_the_jet]

See! See what you did there? That's not how you debate. You don't cover your ears and say "nah nah nah." You build something, like "how the PC would do things better than this site or offer something completely new."

I'm sticking with my aforementioned "checkmate" until someone makes a good point.
-wtk

[Smeagollum]

See! See what you did there? That's not how you debate. You don't cover your ears and say "nah nah nah." You build something, like "how the PC would do things better than this site or offer something completely new."

I'm sticking with my aforementioned "checkmate" until someone makes a good point.
-wtk

It wouldn't hurt to have a pc... Uncheck, got your queens and chessmate There's also no reason to have no pc. Would it be better to have a pc: probably yes. But we don't know if we have not tried it. Then again I've serious doubts that it will happen, because I think there's a lack of enthusiasm to contribute (help) the pc. Even a constructional debate is difficult to organize. So you need to go blunt and push things through and repair mistakes later or stay in this endless debate of yes/no.

[putridbreath]

At least in my experience, an organization/committee etc. needs a thoroughly thought out charter that clearly explains every function. You need to reveal the mission statement (goal of organization), an explanation of the roles of members, rules as to how things are done. ie will there be votes on certain measures and if so, how do you go about this. The bottom line is before people can vote yes or no, they need to know exactly what they are voting for. As for myself, I am unfamiliar with the role of a PC. If there was a professional charter stating how it would work, I would consider it.

[Gate Troll]

See! See what you did there? That's not how you debate. You don't cover your ears and say "nah nah nah." You build something, like "how the PC would do things better than this site or offer something completely new."

I'm sticking with my aforementioned "checkmate" until someone makes a good point.
-wtk

It wouldn't hurt to have a pc...

Regardless, is it necessary? People seem perfectly capable of playing without one.

Uncheck, got your queens and chessmate

That sentence fails on so many levels. As far as chess terminology goes, there is no such thing as 'uncheck, you either move your piece away from the attacking piece, capture the attacking piece or move another piece between the king and attacking piece. Also there is no such thing as 'chessmate'. I would assume you mean 'checkmate', in which case I doubt a few positive generalizations about a PC constitute an sort of effective counter to what ket is saying.

There's also no reason to have no pc.

That seems like the inverse of your first statement. The problem with a PC is, there's a lot of people interested, but they all have different goals. It's more trouble than its worth. A PC's only practical purpose would either be to make rulings, which a lot of people would disagree with (for example, this thread: Proposed Errata and Discussion) or the actual printing of cards, which will never happen. Nice idea, but not happening. As has been stressed by multiple people numerous times, this site is everything we need! So yes, this is a reason to have no PC.

Would it be better to have a pc: probably yes. But we don't know if we have not tried it. Then again I've serious doubts that it will happen, because I think there's a lack of enthusiasm to contribute (help) the pc. Even a constructional debate is difficult to organize. So you need to go blunt and push things through and repair mistakes later or stay in this endless debate of yes/no.

Once again a generalization. We don't need to try it to know what it will do. I don't understand what you mean about a 'lack' of enthusiasm, plenty of people seem enthusiastic enough. As for your last sentence, it seems that there is no debate. There are several 'factions'. You seem to want to try to get everyone to agree on one course of action, or just push something through that no one agrees on, which will please nobody. This PC idea seems more divisive than anything else.

There. That's my two cents, and that being said, this topic needs to be split and this part moved to the PC forum.

[MR. Lurtzy]

As has been stressed by multiple people numerous times, this site is everything we need! So yes, this is a reason to have no PC.

This.

[ket_the_jet]

Gate Troll: Quite simply, this is the most educated argument you have presented on this site. Not just because it was in concordance with my beliefs, but it was perfectly pretentious and well-enough scripted.

Our little boy is growing up!
-wtk

[legolas3333]

I think everyone here would support a PC but we just don't see it happening and don't see the need for it.

[Smeagollum]

@ Door Orc

You're just not knowing what your talking about. I experienced myself the lack of enthusiasm to help to create a pc. I tried to get people enthusiatic, but when I asked for support there were maybe 2 people who really seemed interested to debate it. So I quited the job. If you don't know something then just don't say anything.
Secondly I favour a pc, but just will not see it happen, because everybody keeps talking, but at the moment people ask things to do then there is lesser interest.
People have other goals. Well it might, but if there's no decision, then nothing will happen at all.
This site is all we need? Not really, I think. People want to have gccc and people want to have contact with eachother. At this moment there are still playergroups who do not use this site, so a pc could bring people together.

Well for your 2 cents, back here we don't have any cents; They are round up or down.. guess what happens to your two cents. I think it's really weak to take on someone's language who's not a natural speaker as you might be.

Do or do not, maybe that's the question.

[ket_the_jet]

I would rather take an almost-compliment from me over an insult from Smeagollum any day. I think the biggest question that I have is "How could a PC bring current playgroups into this game in a  way that this site cannot?"
-wkt

[Smeagollum]

Uncheck, got your queens and chessmate

That sentence fails on so many levels. As far as chess terminology goes, there is no such thing as 'uncheck, you either move your piece away from the attacking piece, capture the attacking piece or move another piece between the king and attacking piece. Also there is no such thing as 'chessmate'. I would assume you mean 'checkmate', in which case I doubt a few positive generalizations about a PC constitute an sort of effective counter to what ket is saying.

And this ain't an insult?!! On just a funny remark!! Well that's what i think is sad!

[ket_the_jet]

Also, and this is worth putting in another post as opposed to an edit, don't attack someone's credibility as a way to argue your point. Gate Troll made a solid argument, came with evidence backing his position, and offered personal recommendations. So shooting down his thoughts by saying, "No that's not the way it works. Nah Nah Nah! I can't hear you!" is exactly why people like myself think the PC is a stupid endeavor.
-wtk

[ket_the_jet]

And this ain't an insult?!! On just a funny remark!! Well that's what i think is sad!

Hey, I did call him pretentious as well.
-wtk

[Smeagollum]

KTJ, what do you mean by calling him pretentious?

In my opinion he started with an insult which also attacked my credibillity. And again if you'd followed my attempts for creating a pc then you would have known that I asked for a lot of input. And I just didn't get almost nothing. So my opinion is: I favour a pc. Don't see it happen. But if you want to happen you just start one (which is in my opinion blunt) and maybe there are mistakes in the beginning, but you can repair them on the way and if the pc doesn't work then it will die a natural death. If people don't like what the pc does then they will neglect it and they will stay just on this forum. And if it works then it will atract also people like you. So the pc should  listen to it's members, otherwise it has no reason to it's existence. There is no reason for not creating a pc. Why the belief that it would harm the game. A pc didn't harm Star Trek or Star Wars.

[chompers]

Actually a PC breathed life into Star Trek and made it bigger than it was when Decipher produced the game.

Why?

* It is endorsed by the community and by Decipher
* It has good leadership
* It has organised play including world championships (this year in Germany - for the first time - and guess what some people actually intend to fly there and attend - not bad for a defunct card game)
* The game can be free to play when using v-cards and errata cards meaning money is no longer a barrier to playing this CCG
* It provides up-to-date rulings on issues as they arise
* It keeps the game fresh with an expanding card base
* It provides a place for players that love STCCG to go and be part of a community
* I am sure there are other reasons

Even Middle Earth CCG by ICE has a PC.

TLHH provides some of this, a well-run PC provides more.

LOTR can have this - and those of you that are unsure will benefit from some aspects of the PC but may not choose to use all of it.

The benefits of a PC have been spelled out many times, and the problems with creating have been spelled out many times. Some of the perceived problems that a PC can create have also been discussed. But when it comes down to it - those problems only exist if you choose to use the PC (don't use the rules support, don't use the website, don't attend the tournaments, continue to play the game as you have for the last X years unchanged).

Part of the reason a PC does not exist is because of the divided opinion amongst the community.

[Gil-Estel]

Just out of curiosity:
- how tight was the community of Star Trek when starting a PC?
- how big was the community of Star Trek when starting a PC?
- how many people participated in the PC?
- how many 'new' people are drawn to Star Trek due to the PC?
- how many old people are getting back in the game due to the PC?
- how much work is involved in the Star Trek PC?

Here at TLHH we are devided. Somewhat lazy perhaps, and randomly satisfied with the way things are as they are now. But even then, we are a small community, and more over, a shattered one. We have a few English members, a few German, some from Australia, some from Brasil, Chile, US, but when speaking of active membership, participating in debates, knowing the rules, it is like 2-4 per country.
And if some of those members are not likely to put any effort in a PC because they think it is neither necceasary or viable, well, you have got to admit, chances are pretty slim, don't you think?

[Smeagollum]

Here at TLHH we are devided. Somewhat lazy perhaps, and randomly satisfied with the way things are as they are now. But even then, we are a small community, and more over, a shattered one. We have a few English members, a few German, some from Australia, some from Brasil, Chile, US, but when speaking of active membership, participating in debates, knowing the rules, it is like 2-4 per country.
And if some of those members are not likely to put any effort in a PC because they think it is neither necceasary or viable, well, you have got to admit, chances are pretty slim, don't you think?

Exactly what I mean. Would love a pc (chompers is absolutely right), but just won't see it happen, because we're not desicive.

[chompers]

Just out of curiosity:
- how tight was the community of Star Trek when starting a PC?
- how big was the community of Star Trek when starting a PC?
- how many people participated in the PC?
- how many 'new' people are drawn to Star Trek due to the PC?
- how many old people are getting back in the game due to the PC?
- how much work is involved in the Star Trek PC?

It is not easy for me to answer all these questions accurately as I left Trek because Decipher lost the contract and I had some major life changes at the same time. I returned to the game 2 years later unaware that the PC has even been established. I will do my best with my responses and try and keep them unbiased.

1) How tight? I've said it before but I think the Star Trek community is more rabid and has more passion for all things Trek than LOTR fans. Hey - Trekkies have a reputation above LOTR fans. So I would say they were VERY tight and this is part of the problem to establishing a PC.
2) Star Trek community was definately bigger than LOTR when the PC was started.
3) The PC has 6-12 active members that run it at the top level, but this stems down into volunteers that organise play in each of the countries and then areas within the countries. There are more active memebrs involved in the PC than what LOTR currently has.
4) Star Trek has gained so many players as a result of the PC. There are around 20-30 active Trek players in my area. They come and go. Of this number no more than 10 played Star Trek before Decipher lost its contract. To be fair Trek is doing so well in my area because the tournament director is extremely likeable and has an amazing ability to draw new players into the game. One-in-a-million.
5) Old players have returned to the game. As I said around 10 of the current on-and-off play group are still playing and have either continued to play the game or have returned to the game.
6) Running the PC is a huge effort. Charlie Plaine, chairman of the PC, has said on these forums (he took an interest in what we were trying to achieve for a while and appeared to consider epxanding the Star Trek PC) that he spends on average 20 hours a week organising the operations of the PC. He then has many others that assist him, so yes there is a huge time commitment involved. If I didn't have a young family, and had more time, I would be willing to put this time in, but my life just doesn't allow for it at the moment. Plus I am kinda having fun getting back into Trek (perhaps because I don't have to put the hard work in).

I really do think that a well-run PC has the ability to attract new players to the game with all the advantages that come with it (as listed in my previous post). But, the key issue here is 'well-run' PC. Without the right people on board the discussion will just continue.

The way I see it, there is no harm debating the PC, preferably in a nice way. The members on this site change around a bit, and perhaps one day the right players will come on board.

The other thing to consider as you have pointed out GE is that comparing LOTR to ST is not necessarily valid. They are different games after all, the only common theme is that they are made by Decipher.

I realise there are issues and i am trying to point out both positives and negatives but the thing that makes me feel so strongly towards a PC is that Star Trek has gained players as a result of having a PC. If we band together once the right peeople come along and get it started I feel we will attract new players and all benefit in the long run.

I am not saying I am right, it is just my opinion based on experience.

Sorry if my post is all over the place - i have had a few wines.

[Smeagollum]

@Chompers

Very well put. Makes me think that if people want to start a pc then it might me smart to just copy the organization of ST PC. The only thing you then need to achieve is:

Commitment
Filling in positions
Goal and how to achieve this goal
A decipher era part with current rulings + gamemechanics and a non decipher era part with new rules, virtual cards and gamemechanics (so that people can choose willingly what they want to play)
Decipher's approval

and eh Chompers.. Cheers mate

[chompers]

A decipher era part with current rulings + gamemechanics and a non decipher era part with new rules, virtual cards and gamemechanics (so that people can choose willingly what they want to play)

I really like this - different ways to play - and not messing with the existing ways of playing that currently work.

[Smeagollum]

A decipher era part with current rulings + gamemechanics and a non decipher era part with new rules, virtual cards and gamemechanics (so that people can choose willingly what they want to play)

I really like this - different ways to play - and not messing with the existing ways of playing that currently work.

This is what we actually allready do with using Austrian format. But then you make it more clear and you can extend the game for those who are interested in that part. It's something like what Star Wars does with the films-part and their expanded universe. It just makes sense.

[ket_the_jet]

Easy test to see if a PC brings in players this site does not:

Smeagollum-
Date registered: 03 September 2008
Active member: Yes, 1.1+ posts/day
PC in place: No

Chompers-
Date registered: 16 January 2009
Active member: Yes, .75+ posts/day
PC in place: No

Hmm...what are the implications of this shocking information?!
-wtk

[Smeagollum]

Easy test to see if a PC brings in players this site does not:

Smeagollum-
Date registered: 03 September 2008
Active member: Yes, 1.1+ posts/day
PC in place: No

Chompers-
Date registered: 16 January 2009
Active member: Yes, .75+ posts/day
PC in place: No

Hmm...what are the implications of this shocking information?!
-wtk

??

Strange argument..... You don't have anything better to do???

[ket_the_jet]

I am at work. So no.

Edit: Here would be a more accurate test. How many members of this site have found this community through a Players' Committee?

How many members of this site found this community through old fashioned research or a recommendation and have since posted deck recommendations, trade lists, learned about GCCG, and posted dream cards?

* ket_the_jet raises hand.

-wtk

[Gate Troll]

@ Door Orc

You're just not knowing what your talking about. I experienced myself the lack of enthusiasm to help to create a pc. I tried to get people enthusiatic, but when I asked for support there were maybe 2 people who really seemed interested to debate it. So I quited the job. If you don't know something then just don't say anything.

I was kind of thinking about this thread when I responded: http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,3813.0.html. Also, there was whole slew of articles on page 5 of Bag End that got moved to the new PC forum. I counted a fair few interested in a PC. So please don't tell me I'm ignorant and need to shut up.

Secondly I favour a pc, but just will not see it happen, because everybody keeps talking, but at the moment people ask things to do then there is lesser interest.
People have other goals. Well it might, but if there's no decision, then nothing will happen at all.

I have no idea what this means. I know English isn't your first language so that's perfectly understandable, however a little clarification would be appreciated.

This site is all we need? Not really, I think. People want to have gccc and people want to have contact with eachother. At this moment there are still playergroups who do not use this site, so a pc could bring people together.

Most people who use gccg to play LotR tcg got it from this site. I also do not see how a PC could bring people to LotR, it seems far more likely that most players will learn about the PC from this site.

Well for your 2 cents, back here we don't have any cents; They are round up or down.. guess what happens to your two cents. I think it's really weak to take on someone's language who's not a natural speaker as you might be.

'That's just my two cents' is an American figure of speech which basically means 'that's just my opinion'. Also, I don't think it's 'weak', of me to use a figure of speech. I'm sorry that you are offended, but if I can't speak English, what am I supposed to speak?

Do or do not, maybe that's the question.

Do or do not what? Smeagollum, I have no desire to argue. I simply believe that, at the size we are now, a PC would do more damage than good.


@ket_the_jet:
I feel slightly patronized. I suppose I deserve it, I have put my foot in my mouth a few times.

I am at work. So no.

Edit: Here would be a more accurate test. How many members of this site have found this community through a Players' Committee?

* Gate Troll keeps hand down.

How many members of this site found this community through old fashioned research or a recommendation and have since posted deck recommendations, trade lists, learned about GCCG, and posted dream cards?

* ket_the_jet raises hand.

-wtk

* Gate Troll raises hand.

[MR. Lurtzy]

How many members of this site found this community through old fashioned research or a recommendation and have since posted deck recommendations, trade lists, learned about GCCG, and posted dream cards?

* ket_the_jet raises hand.

-wtk

* MR. Lurtzy raises his hand.

[ket_the_jet]

Followers.
-wtk

[MR. Lurtzy]

Don't be so full of yourself.

[chompers]

Edit: Here would be a more accurate test. How many members of this site have found this community through a Players' Committee?

There is no PC, so if anyone found this site looking for a PC is one is a clever bunny.

Here's a more accurate test, how many players that actually play a game supported by an active PC have found that game and now play it.

[ket_the_jet]

Are you kidding me? I am so vain that Carly Simon wrote a song about me. It is called, "The Stuff That Dreams Are Made Of."
-wtk

[MR. Lurtzy]

Here's a more accurate test, how many players that actually play a game supported by an active PC have found that game and now play it.

The other thing to consider as you have pointed out GE is that comparing LOTR to ST is not necessarily valid. They are different games after all, the only common theme is that they are made by Decipher.

[TelTura]

A decipher era part with current rulings + gamemechanics and a non decipher era part with new rules, virtual cards and gamemechanics (so that people can choose willingly what they want to play)

I really like this - different ways to play - and not messing with the existing ways of playing that currently work.

doesn't this seem to be the only option at this point?  even if every active member of this forum were willing to sacrifice all of their spare time every week for a year on this PC, we still only have a net base of, what?  twenty?  thirty?  that's enough to maybe give everyone a position, and then that's it.  A PC that leads...itself?  No player base?  That's like having a thirty-population nation.  You don't need a "nation" at that level.  A town will do.

Just set up "house rules", for lack of a better term.  That's what me and my bro's do at home, and it could be adapted to this (slightly) larger population.

[Smeagollum]

I really don't see anypoint for not having a pc. It really are non-arguments. If you've got a pc then it would be obvious to me that you make two format's (in this case I mean different format's then usually is meant here, but don't know how to call it otherwise):

1 Traditional as it is now with current rulings and by decipher sanctioned formats and no Austrian format and no altered x-list, r-list and errata. For people who like it as it is.

2 an expanded post decipher format (section?) with new gameplay, extended ruling and stuff. also v-sets. For people who would like to see the game develop and evolve.

Both can be played and everybody can enjoy the game he likes the most. I agree on Ket that we might not need more then this site. we can do this at tlhh, sure.. no problem. But what i think a pc is great for us is that it's easier to get more organized gameplay cq tournaments. I think tournaments would add to bring in new players. Also you need to keep people interrested. With no new cards it would be harder, not impossible, but more difficult. Also it would be nice to have a ratinglist again. You can all do this at tlhh. actually we allready do those things, but we don't do it organized. A pc should control this so people like ket and his minions/followers are protected that their needs are guaranteed. But it would also give the option to the others to do the things they would like, by example make officious virtual sets. There's no harm in that.

Actually everything Ket says is more reason to have a PC. A pc is there for organization and ballance and supporting it's players in it's needs. Nothing more.

What Ket is doing now is to say it's not nescesarry to have a pc and it will damage the game, but then you forfill only the needs of just one part of our player community and that is selfish. With a pc we can do both! And service both groups needs. actually ket should be in the council!

Only thing I say is that I favour a pc, but that I have big doubts of seeing it happen, because there is a lack of input imo and the endless discussion between the Jay and the nay's. So if people want a pc I think you should just start one, temporarely ignore they nays (Does still mean that the pc still needs to concider both needs) and start things up. If it is interresting people will come and will start to trust a pc. If it doesn't then the pc will die automaticly and no harm is done, because we can allways fallback to what we have. Did it harm Star Wars ccg: no. Did it harm Star Trek ccg: no.

Wizards is losing their license for SW miniatures and people are allready organizing themselves for post-wizards. So why don't we. A pc doesn't mean that you have to play it in the pc format. You can always play how it is now. But you give the option to the others, like Thranduill, me, chompers and others to do what they would like and because you do this organized you/we can control this.

Also a pc can repair thing organized. Ket is against a pc, but still asks for example:

Why is Sting banned but Glamdring (1R75) is not?
-wtk

That's exactly the reason why a pc is needed: to get general agreement on some matters.
The more the nays say nay, actually is the more reason why a pc is needed.

[Smeagollum]

* ket_the_jet raises hand.

-wtk

I think this is a bit scary, don't you think? It remembers me about 1931- 1945. And I don't think you want me to think that, because I think you are a smart boy, but you don't need to be demagogic. Although you're good at it; seeing your minions. And I really think you don't mean to be like such. Or do you? So what are you trying to do: Manipulate me and others to do it your way? Why should I? I'm no lesser being then you and vice versa. I just want to have fun like I think you want to do as well. We should be not so sarcastic and aggresive.. including myself. But such remark and seeing how you trying to get some of us I, can't all it nothing more then manipulated, into a discussion we can't win, because you negelect our feelings. I don't think that's what you want, but it's the feeling I get by some of your remarks. Please note I don't want to offend you. I only want to express my feelings and concerns.

[ket_the_jet]

Do you know who said "nay" on Sting? Decipher. That's good enough for me.

I appreciate the length of your post and your concern for my interests. I will post later (tomorrow, probably) with a few thoughts.
-wtk

[Smeagollum]

Do you know who said "nay" on Sting? Decipher. That's good enough for me.

I appreciate the length of your post and your concern for my interests. I will post later (tomorrow, probably) with a few thoughts.
-wtk

As long as it is constructive But please note if we want to keep the game alive then we need both the nay's and the jay's! That means that I need you and I like to think vice versa. And hey if you followed my remarks closely you know I'm a traditional player who like the game how it is (cards are meant to be played), but I would like to have more tournaments and also virtual sets. I also would like a kind of meeting say about 3 days where we can all meet eachother (would be interresting to meet both you and chompers) and then talk with you about other things and also have some fun games. And yes I like to have discussions as well,  though it would be nicer in Dutch (so people learn Dutch.., The Americans did miscalculate the votes during their independence, actually dutch won with one vote more then english, but then there was a fraude by assuming a forefather of Gearge W. Bush and english got the 1 vote majority )

[Gate Troll]

* ket_the_jet raises hand.

-wtk

I think this is a bit scary, don't you think? It remembers me about 1931- 1945. And I don't think you want me to think that, because I think you are a smart boy, but you don't need to be demagogic. Although you're good at it; seeing your minions. And I really think you don't mean to be like such. Or do you? So what are you trying to do: Manipulate me and others to do it your way? Why should I? I'm no lesser being then you and vice versa. I just want to have fun like I think you want to do as well. We should be not so sarcastic and aggresive.. including myself. But such remark and seeing how you trying to get some of us I, can't all it nothing more then manipulated, into a discussion we can't win, because you negelect our feelings. I don't think that's what you want, but it's the feeling I get by some of your remarks. Please note I don't want to offend you. I only want to express my feelings and concerns.

I wasn't saying 'Heil ket_the_jet' and I'm not his minion, I simply think he's 100% correct. And on a minor historical note, Adolf Hitler didn't take power until 1933. 

[Smeagollum]

Oh, but he started before Well it seems you feel spoken to.. thus you understand what I mean. That's good, but now be decent don't make jokes about I raise my hand.. and followers it's not done. And good that you have an opinion for your own so debate; you know what I think speaks for a pc and give real argument's for no pc, because thus far i've seen none other then we don't need. Don't need it is no argument for not creating a pc.. You might say a pc is something extra to the game. You might not want this extra (by no reason so far), but others do and there's enough room for both needs.

Btw your avatar is from Wow? Can't see it clearly...

[Gate Troll]

My avatar is an ork from Warhammer 40k. Hence the Waaaaaaaaagh!!!! underneath it.

Orks iz da biggezt an' da best, see, me an' da boyz ar' better than any stoopid humies an we' iz gonna stomp 'em all real good! Waaaaaaaaaaagh!!!!

[Smeagollum]

My avatar is an ork from Warhammer 40k. Hence the Waaaaaaaaagh!!!! underneath it.

Orks iz da biggezt an' da best, see, me an' da boyz ar' better than any stoopid humies an we' iz gonna stomp 'em all real good! Waaaaaaaaaaagh!!!!

Nice

[ket_the_jet]

First of all, I have been compared to much worse than Hilter, Goebbels, or Mussolini. I actually don't view these things as insults. That is not to say that those three were not atrocious, it is just to say that I appreciate the comparison to some of the most well-known polarizing political figures.

I'm no lesser being then you and vice versa.

I see myself as well above any other human.

...because you negelect our feelings...

Exactly.

Secondly, before I begin, Gate Troll, your cover is blown. You were outed as a spy and faction warrior of my North American Zionist Institution for the Purity of Lord of the Rings Trading Card Games, or NAZI, as I like to call it for short. Please report back to base for a bullet lodged in your temple--uh, I mean a medal of commendation for your brave works on the front lines. Mr. "Captain Piett" Lurtzy, make ready to land our troops beyond their energy shield and deploy the fleet so that nothing gets off the system. You are in command now, Admiral Piett...

Now that I have gotten that out of the way...let's get to the heart of the matter.

I agree on Ket that we might not need more then this site. we can do this at tlhh, sure.. no problem. But what i think a pc is great for us is that it's easier to get more organized gameplay cq tournaments.

Here's what I want you to do. Go outside. Grab three to five decks of varying skill level. Go to a park or a local card store or something, and just find someone and say, "Let's play." Then rinse and repeat, let's say 800 times. Once everyone on this site does that, maybe a Players' Committee would be helpful. But in the meantime, while our community is less than 400 active members, just go out and meet people and introduce them to the game.

Your flawed assumption is that people are actively looking for a Lord of the Rings trading card game website and having a Players' Committee website solves all of our problems. Guess what? It doesn't. Taking a little initiative and meeting people and going to card shows and introducing people to the game is what brings in new players, not a flashy (if not poorly designed) website.

A pc should control this so people like ket and his minions/followers are protected that their needs are guaranteed.

You haven't earned the right to talk down at me like that. And I don't have minions. It just so happens that I am the only one dumb enough to actually go into any detail about the shortcomings of this plan, and so it is easy for people who agree to echo.

A pc is there for organization and ballance and supporting it's players in it's needs. Nothing more.

I'm calling #$&*@! on that. CobraCards, and now The Last Homely Home and GCCG are a nice play to organize and to play and to support these members. You Players' Committee guys can't even get your stories straight. Some of you say dream cards are happening. Others say "never." Some people say Worldwide tournaments. Others say, "well, realistically maybe some sort of regional tournament." Some of you say "support and balance players." Others say, "Rebuild the Lord of the Rings community so this game can 'live forever.'"

...that is selfish.

How is me pursuing my goals any more selfish than you pursuing yours? Of course what I am doing is selfish because I want what is best for me, but I also want what is best for the game at this point, which is not a group of people coming up with grand projects until they realize the obstacles in their way and abandoning those projects (e.g., the ever-successful Lord of the Rings magazine and it's shelf-life of...wait, it didn't even have one issue?!).

actually ket should be in the council!

Fat chance. You guys couldn't be so lucky.

...others, like Thranduill, me, chompers and others to do what they would like...

This is just not very well thought-out. What would be a point of a Players' Committee if it did not become the  internationally "successful" standard modus operandi for Lord of the Rings players? Like I told Kenddrick...if you guys want a Players' Committee so badly, grow a pair and put the website up and just say, "#$&*@! everyone else...if you don't like the PC then #$&*@! off. But we are starting this and we are defacto leaders until this thing is off the ground."

Only thing I say is that I favour a pc, but that I have big doubts of seeing it happen, because there is a lack of input imo and the endless discussion between the Jay and the nay's

Have a little goddamned confidence in your plan. But that's the problem. The first one of you who says, "#$&*@! it, let's do this and #$&*@! the naysayers (i.e., me)!" and makes the project his (or hers in a much less likely scenario) apparently does not have the confidence to believe this thing would succeed. Because I guarantee you, if I was at all convinced that the Players' Committee was even a marginally good idea, then I would have spearheaded this operation, been the group's nuts, and things would be off the ground.

This comes to a huge issue to me. The few people in support of the Players' Committee that I genuinely believe would be good leaders are not interested in leading. No offense to you, or Kenddrick, or chompers, but I am not convinced that the three of you are who I would trust this game's future to. Hawkeye doesn't want to do it and Thranduil has backed away from a large leadership role. And I understand that it isn't just "one person's" responsibility, but having someone up there who can kick #$&*@! and take names and make things happen is hugely important. You guys don't have that. At all. Star Wars had a strong leader at the beginning. Star Trek has a strong leader at the beginning. They also created a PC in the early years of Decipher's abandonment, when the playing group was still strong.

I would much rather continue going here, where Kralik has created this wonderful little slice of cyberspace for us to come #$&*@! around about a near-dead trading card game. And yes, I'm sure "near-dead trading card game" will be quoted and you will make some grand hurrah about how you want to "bring it back to life" but #$&*@! that, it's not happening.

That's exactly the reason why a pc is needed: to get general agreement on some matters.

What makes you think that you will get more agreement just by having another website? Because I won't be there? Or because people who don't care enough to follow this "dream" won't be there?

Have you played on GCCG? Get on board. Play a game. I am 99% sure Lord of the Rings will become a game to you again instead of some grand plan to marginalize a lot of the long-standing members of the international community (I'm not talking about myself here...rather, people like Kralik and Heije and Admiral Pi--er, Lurtzy and those other CobraCards people who have been around for a while and are not in support) and creating something that is not even necessary.

Finally, I feel like I am having deja vu describing my qualms with a Players' Committee. I posted a lot of thoughts here some months ago. That's funny...the PC still isn't up.
-wtk

[ket_the_jet]

Also, enjoy this.
-wtk

[Smeagollum]

@KTJ

Actually you're saying the same thing I do. Just start the pc and see what happens. That's all I wanted to know.

2nd.. never said that another website was or is nescesarry. In my plan there would come a website, but one which would have buildin tlhh and gcc So actually build around tlhh. And I still think in the end Kendricks site and TLHH should merge.

Oh I don't have to prove myself about bringing new or old players in the game. Allready did that. Thing is and that's your flaw, I think you've to attract people to the game and serve them. i don't think people are searching actively for it. You need to attract them.

About selfishness.. well according to me I proposed something for both players. I don't deny your way, but I felt that you deny the way of a pc. But now you've stressed that out, by saying don't care what I say just do it and see what happens. In that case I hope you won't hinder the pc, by shofering them for example. Though I still like you to be critical, but not that it looks like there are two playergroups within one. I ask your support for that. Let that then be your support to the pc

Thank you for not seeing me as a leader... I hate to be one. When I was trying to bring it up I remember that I asked somebodyelse to lead the pc. I asked Discostu. Because I know what I can and can't. But for your remarks and confidence just overthink this: There is a swimmingclub called DE Meeuwen (The gulls) and they had financial problems, a lack of volunteers, Qualified instructors and there was no waterpolo anymore. It was my old club. On some point about 5 years ago I started up a waterpolo manteam. That brought in new people. Some of them came into the board and on them I used my influence to reorganize teaching kids how to learn to swim. I advised them to bring in one person (my old teacher btw) to do this for them. after a year there came a new trainer for the men and I started a waterpolodepartment for kids. And now here is my flaw. I can only start things up.. I can't finnish them. It's to much stress for me. But because i started up the waterpolodepartment there came more members and so more money. Now de Meeuwen is financially solid. Oh there are still problems, because the active members are to you to carry the club by themself.. whole generations are mssing in this club. so It will take about another 6 years for those problems are solved. But there are enough volunteers and more important there are some very high-qualified trainers in the club.. and those trainers are on international level (and that for a very small club which even don't perform on a high level... yet). I think I know what I can and what I can't. But would you have thought that behind me? Don't think so. So you don't know me and you don't know chompers or Kendrick, what gives you the right to judge them? And yeah I would have liked to have Hawkeyespf in the pc as well. Did ask him and some others, because I know I can start up, but i can't finnish.

I wished I could play gcc (would like to whipe your ash with my decks ), but there is something I don;t quite understand and that are the commando's and my english is not good enough to get it started up. So if you could advise me then please?!

Then back to my other remark. Well I said that because I was and to be honest am concerned. I don't like that kind of jokes. That might sound awkward maybe because you think it's just a joke, but I think you underestimate your influence. You like to provoke people and your a populist (that's what I think) so people are easily influenced by you. Here we have someone like that in the politics who also ain't a nazi, but who likes to polorize... It ruins our country by the way, because of two opposites (and therefore I loved the link you posted). His name is Geert Wilders and he also like to make jokes. Jokes are often misinterpretedAnd to be honest I see you do some things here that he does in politics.

[Hobbiton Lad]

I'm no expert on community game development, but I think you have to start at the local level. Generating interest in the game again should be the number one priority. The PC should exist to provide support and a uniform structure to the player base, but there has to be a relatively substantial player base intact.

Anyone that has built a successful organization will tell you that starting small is key. A good goal would be to demo at every store in your area. Then see if you can manage to get 8 people out to a sealed deck tournament. These are great places to start.

[Gil-Estel]

Hmmm, if I am correct there are 2 opinions...

1. people who are in favor of the PC
2. people who do not need the PC

Let those who feel connected with 1 proceed as planned, without interverance of those who do not connect with 1, and let the #2s play lotr the way they always liked it. Play with your friends, if don't have them, buy some, if you can't afford them, lend them, if you cannot borrow friends, go to the bums on the street and teach them....if that is too much effort, download GCCG.

[ket_the_jet]

Hobbiton Lad, you earned yourself a .

Smeagollum, when things are a little slower at work, I will delve back into our discussion.
-wtk

[Gil-Estel]

Hobbiton Lad, you earned yourself a .

-wtk

You are generous to those who support your ideas....have a 

[Hobbiton Lad]

I totally am in favor of having a PC. I just think you have to create the need for a PC before you form the committee itself.

It would be like foming a government when there are no citizens to govern. It's simple supply and demand. Create the demand for a PC before you supply it.

[Kralik]

Are you sure everyone wants to create the need for a PC? I think first, before anything else, we need to think about fostering the desire to discuss the lack of a want of the need to create the PC.

[ket_the_jet]

You are generous to those who support your ideas....have a  

I would like to think that I am generous to anyone who makes a good point. Have a for calling me out for my perceived bias in my generosity.

Edit: Last time I looked, I only had 49 gold. So my "controversial methods" must be worth about 24 gold. Regardless, Smeagollum, I hope you are sitting in anticipation of my in-depth response.
-wtk

[Smeagollum]

Hobbiton Lad, you earned yourself a .

Smeagollum, when things are a little slower at work, I will delve back into our discussion.
-wtk

Is good my friend   here's one for you. Actually Gil is using less words then I tried to explain. thx Heije. Here's  two for you    

[Smeagollum]

... and because you also can speak dutch another one 

[Smeagollum]

Are you sure everyone wants to create the need for a PC? I think first, before anything else, we need to think about fostering the desire to discuss the lack of a want of the need to create the PC.

Maybe we should see what project PC brings us.Everyone who wants a pc can help if he or she (do we have a she here actually?) wants. The rest can wait and see how the project develops for say about a year and then we can discuss how it worked and if it worked and if there will be a continuation or not, but I still would like the opinion of the not in need, because i think if the pc won't do that there will grow a to big a distance and that's imo not the pc's ambition. i don't think we should stay into discussion. just let the in favour start their project.

@Lad. you're partiately right, but i think you should organize first and then create the need. That's how companies, like especialy decipher who created a big need of lotr-cards on us, sell a product.

[ket_the_jet]

Don't cheat and give GE the three gold you promised him.
-wtk

[Kralik]

Maybe we should see what project PC brings us.

But not before we... ...

[Gil-Estel]

Come on Ket, he is dutch...we like it cheap. It is, how do your insurance companies call it, a pre existing failure.....

[Smeagollum]

Come on Ket, he is dutch...we like it cheap. It is, how do your insurance companies call it, a pre existing failure.....

Besides I'm from Amsterdam.. there we like it even more cheaper In fact we have a nose for it...

Amsterdams joods kookboek: "Men lenen ene ei"

Sorry guys just a Dutch joke.. Heije can explain it far better then I can...

[Hobbiton Lad]

You get enough people interested in playing this game again, they will be breaking down the doors wanting a PC to come up with a uniform structure for competitive play.

Until then, focus on your local areas. How was Decipher successful? They had product champions out doing demos on a regular basis. They established relationships with retailers and gave them incentive to carry their product. These are the things that have to happen for LotR to truly become a thriving game again.

If you get people in a card shop on a regular basis, retailers (at least the ones in my area) will help you promote the game. They want the bodies in their store. They want to sell product.

A PC alone will not revive this game. Is it an important part? Yes. But there has to be tremendous amounts of grass roots support from LotR enthusiasts on the local level.

[Smeagollum]

yup, so we should do the same as decipher and actually better, because to be honest they did a lousy job.

[Hobbiton Lad]

 

yup, so we should do the same as decipher and actually better, because to be honest they did a lousy job.

Decipher was great at organizing volunteers to promote their games. They were terrible at managing their finances.

[Smeagollum]

yup, so we should do the same as decipher and actually better, because to be honest they did a lousy job.

Decipher was great at organizing volunteers to promote their games. They were terrible at managing their finances.

Well partially.. they can't help a frauds. But what they did lousy was what they did with the gameafter mount doom. I just remember a certain Brad de Fruiter say no we will not put Dunlend men, Isengard men and raider into one culture. I forgot the reason, but it was around rotk or sog. few months later Dan Bojawolski: Yeah we gonna make it somehow different.

But what was also a mistake is the foils, because of costreduction they wanted to limited the foils. I know a few friends who lost interrest, because of that. Because they were afraid to invest they lost a lot of players. So we should do better.

[Hobbiton Lad]

Game design is a completely different beast. Can't start thinking about game mechanics or collecting information until you actually get the game up and going again.

Get people playing. Get people playing. Get people playing.

It's really that simple.

[Smeagollum]

oh i agree, but you can do that organized

[TelTura]

Secondly, before I begin, Gate Troll, your cover is blown. You were outed as a spy and faction warrior of my North American Zionist Institution for the Purity of Lord of the Rings Trading Card Games, or NAZI, as I like to call it for short. Please report back to base for a bullet lodged in your temple--uh, I mean a medal of commendation for your brave works on the front lines. Mr. "Captain Piett" Lurtzy, make ready to land our troops beyond their energy shield and deploy the fleet so that nothing gets off the system. You are in command now, Admiral Piett...

ket, if I felt that meant anything, I would give you a mountain of it, for quite possibly the most elegant and hilarious counter of an infraction of Godwin's Law that I have ever, ever, seen on the internet. 

that said, I propose the first action of a PC should be the enforcement of the Law referred to above, and the second, to recess until there's as many active, motivated, dedicated members as there are sets in the game.

[ket_the_jet]

ket, if I felt that meant anything, I would give you a mountain of it, for quite possibly the most elegant and hilarious counter of an infraction of Godwin's Law that I have ever, ever, seen on the internet.

Well, I will give you a for knowing what Godwin's Law is.

Actually you're saying the same thing I do. Just start the pc and see what happens. That's all I wanted to know.

There must be a nomenclature misunderstanding if my side of "A PC is not necessary" and your side of "Let's start a PC" are the same thing.

Oh I don't have to prove myself about bringing new or old players in the game. Allready did that. Thing is and that's your flaw, I think you've to attract people to the game and serve them. i don't think people are searching actively for it. You need to attract them.

I've been giving away rares, refractors, foils, and promos for card games since well before you opened your first pack of cards. I have worked hard to build player bases for a few different games in several areas (I have had the opportunity to live throughout the United States); some of these player groups are still active. I haven't built any players' committees and I haven't sent anyone in a players' committee's direction.

...but I felt that you deny the way of a pc.

I sincerely hope this is not a new realization.

Thank you for not seeing me as a leader... I hate to be one. When I was trying to bring it up I remember that I asked somebodyelse to lead the pc.

Well, I can't see a leader as someone who promises things, like gold pieces for example, and then doesn't deliver. That makes you an ordinary politician. It sounds like your Water Polo club worked out at a local level. Have you had any thoughts of making a local players' group before trying out a World-Wide, tournament-supporting, virtual card-creating group? Think about how the Austrian format began. Some people in a small player group just decided they wanted to do it. Now it is a fringe format that is played by some people in other areas of the world. That idea didn't begin with, "Let's make a sweet website that has awesome graphics and that funny outtake where Boromir has a bone-on and Galadriel is looking right at it and then we'll create a new format and everyone will love us."

But would you have thought that behind me? Don't think so. So you don't know me and you don't know chompers or Kendrick, what gives you the right to judge them? And yeah I would have liked to have Hawkeyespf in the pc as well. Did ask him and some others, because I know I can start up, but i can't finnish.

Luckily enough, I was born being me. That in itself gives me the right to judge whomever, and whatever, I'd like. But the actual point is that I have had the advantage of watching everyone's interactions and processes over this PC as I have not gotten heavily involved in the dissent, with a few minor exceptions, until quite recently.

I wished I could play gcc (would like to whipe your ash with my decks ), but there is something I don;t quite understand and that are the commando's and my english is not good enough to get it started up. So if you could advise me then please?!

If you are being stopped by a language barrier, I would suggest checking out the Green Dragon Inn for advice. You can also check out a International Keyboard Interpretation for commands.

Maybe we should see what project PC brings us.Everyone who wants a pc can help if he or she wants. The rest can wait and see how the project develops for say about a year and then we can discuss how it worked and if it worked and if there will be a continuation or not, but I still would like the opinion of the not in need, because i think if the pc won't do that there will grow a to big a distance and that's imo not the pc's ambition.

Here's the problem with your theory. If you half-#$&*@! a Players' Committee (i.e., start without a strong leader, a solid support group, and a foundation with a full commitment to what you are doing from the playing community at large), and you fail (which, inevitably you will), then you have closed the door to a Players' Committee ever being built again. You wouldn't be able to sleep at night with that guilt, would you?

(do we have a she here actually?)

Shieldmaiden and LoveMeAndDespair are the only two I know of. Maybe you should spend a little less time worrying about a Players' Committee and a little more time worrying about meeting girls.

but I think you underestimate your influence.

I don't think I underestimate anything. I know #$&*@! well everything I say and the implications of what I say. Considering I majored in International Politics, I am quite well-versed in the politicians and political systems.

Anyways, for the second day in a row, I have spent about an hour cutting and pasting quotes here and responding. Who knows, maybe you will evoke something for tomorrow?

Glad to hear you found your cat. Losing a pet is particularly tough.
-wtk

[Smeagollum]

  WTF = just a smiley or not?   Maybe I miss the meaning here? To me it's only a compliment. Is it something else?

Thx for the support about my cat.

[ket_the_jet]

  WTF = just a smiley or not?  Maybe I miss the meaning here? To me it's only a compliment. Is it something else?

Under everyone's name is the "Give Gold" option. is a gold piece. So when you post , you are implying that you are giving someone a gold with the "give gold option." I was just messing with you when I called you a politician. That was a joke.
-wtk

[Smeagollum]

oops, sorry. Didn't know that. Well to who do I owe some  ? Will make corrections immidiatly.

[ket_the_jet]

It doesn't actually matter. I think that you can only give a certain amount per hour (4 or 6, maybe?) as you have to wait between giving one person an oatmeal cookie (I swear look like crappy oatmeal cookies).

Either way, like I said, I was just poking fun. But now it is time for me to actually be doing work. I await the likely replies with great anticipation.
-wtk

[Smeagollum]

I became 4th of the netherlands (netherlands is a round middle level in the world say equal to the US) with my waterpolo pupils. I had kids in the ninetees, who are now the biggest talent of our country. Some of them allready played in the national team. But when you've got to start from the bottom then it takes about 15 to twenty years before you can think of becomming chapion of our highest class.

oh you are saying the same thing. Just start one and ee what happens. In my case I'm positive towards a pc. In your case you're not. That's the only difference IMO.

Though you're right that a pc will need a strong leader. So In the end a pc should find one. You're also right about a sollid supportgroup. But it can all be done allong the way. Just start up is my motto and we will see. And indeed a pc should not be just only a website. Sure we need to be carefull, but that's in our own hands. Right? Still it's difficult for me to explain in english what I want (my english was quite good untill my depression.. It's very hard for me nowdays) with a pc. But a pc to me is getting organized. support memebers and start up local events again. Also repair some stupid decipher mistakes like the requirement for a non existent orc culture archer by an event.If we're ready with that we can go on to expand lotr.

Well don't know when you started to give away boosters and rares away. I started organizing tournaments around 2001 and we didn't need someone else to do the building up for player area's: Eric Minkes. But when he stopped doing that I am the main person in my area to get the game going. But is this important?

I was just curious about the woman. In the netherlands we had 3 who did play tournaments. You're right about finding a girlfriend, but first I've to loose about 40 kilo of weight and get my sportsbody back. But that's my problem...  In the mean time I can worry

But really I don't think we think much different, but you're not favouring a pc and I am. Still I'm very cautious about it, because first I like to see it happen.

In the mean time I gave you another  because of the remark about pets. To me animals are very first proirity.. to be honest even more then human. Maybe that's strange, but humanity is the strongest kind on this planet and we need to take care for the weaker kinds and our planet. But that's just my thinking and thats why my vote for goes to a polical party who stands for the animal rights (Partij voor de dieren/party for the animals). Thoud I'm social/liberal before (which is a bit more left then the democratic party in the US I think. But Heije is as historyteacher better informed in that then I am, allthough I also studied history (which I didn't finnish.. Just no finnisher).

[Thranduil]

I've missed this because my computer died the other day, but this whole thread is pretty much the most ridiculous thing I've seen on these boards. Why is everything so personal and so antagonistic? We're all sensible people here, and we all apparently believe very strongly in our opinions, and I know I'm about 7 pages too late, but it's time to just COOL IT!

I really have nothing else to add - it was a pointless argument from the onset, and I'm going to lock this thread. And I think people here know that I don't intervene on threads very often (ie. hardly at all).