Author Topic: Weird theoretical question (Read 11055 times)

MR. Lurtzy · « **on:** July 13, 2010, 04:14:39 PM »

Ithilien blade discards a minion during the manuever phase. My question is, if there is a card that prevents a minion from being spotted during the manuever phase, can Ithilien blade still discard that minion (provided that minion is roaming)?

Elrohir · « **Reply #1 on:** July 13, 2010, 04:26:44 PM »

What a strange situation

Ithilien Blade does not say, that you have to spot a minion. I would say yes, you can discard. But how would you be able, to prevent a minion from being spotted?

MuadDib85 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 13, 2010, 04:35:59 PM »

Can you please tell us the card that prevents spotting during the manuever phase?

(Not that I have clue to the answer of your question, but I'd like to know which card you're referring too).

EDIT: If 'theoretical' means there is no card that prevents spotting... What is the point of your question?

MR. Lurtzy · « **Reply #3 on:** July 13, 2010, 07:05:35 PM »

No, I don't think the card exists, this question has more to do with dream cards.

Kev-La · « **Reply #4 on:** July 13, 2010, 11:43:21 PM »

I would say that a roaming minion has to be in play in order to be considered roaming. If it is in play, it can be spotted, unless another active (dream?) card overrules this by stating something like "Minions may not be spotted". However, since Ithilien Blade's ability does not require the spotting of a minion, it would be unaffected by such a card.

MR. Lurtzy · « **Reply #5 on:** July 14, 2010, 12:02:25 AM »

Doesn't picking a minion to be discarded, in and of itself, mean the minion must be "there" in the first place? When it can't be spotted, it's as if it isn't there.

Kev-La · « **Reply #6 on:** July 14, 2010, 12:47:20 AM »

Quote from: MR. Lurtzy on July 14, 2010, 12:02:25 AM

Doesn't picking a minion to be discarded, in and of itself, mean the minion must be "there" in the first place? When it can't be spotted, it's as if it isn't there.

Yes, it does need to be active ("there") in order to be discarded. However, if you were to have a dream card that stated "Minions may not be spotted in the manoeuvre phase" active already, it would mean that although the minion is still active, the spotting of it by any player (and only the spotting of it) would be impossible within the manoeuvre phase.

MR. Lurtzy · « **Reply #7 on:** August 11, 2010, 02:44:22 PM »

So, a new question then. Is there an inherent spotting of a minion if another card uses an ability on that minion?

mardukra · « **Reply #8 on:** August 11, 2010, 03:02:38 PM »

Quote from: MR. Lurtzy on August 11, 2010, 02:44:22 PM

So, a new question then. Is there an inherent spotting of a minion if another card uses an ability on that minion?

Nope, spotting only takes place when a card says so.

MR. Lurtzy · « **Reply #9 on:** August 11, 2010, 04:24:51 PM »

Perhaps you are right, but it is still very weird that you can have a minion that can't be spotted, but still can be targetted.

Kev-La · « **Reply #10 on:** August 12, 2010, 04:50:43 PM »

Quote from: MR. Lurtzy on August 11, 2010, 04:24:51 PM

Perhaps you are right, but it is still very weird that you can have a minion that can't be spotted, but still can be targetted.

I think what might be causing confusion here is that you are thinking of the card text as if it carried the same meaning as it would in normal English language. In the case of "spot", it most definitely does not.

MR. Lurtzy · « **Reply #11 on:** August 12, 2010, 08:37:33 PM »

Okay, well the same effect should be able to be achieved if the card is prevented from being targetted, right?

Kev-La · « **Reply #12 on:** August 14, 2010, 05:15:12 AM »

Quote from: MR. Lurtzy on August 12, 2010, 08:37:33 PM

Okay, well the same effect should be able to be achieved if the card is prevented from being targetted, right?

Lets suppose there's already a card in play that states "Orcs may not be spotted in the manoeuvre phase". If a player then wishes to play a card with "Manoeuvre: Spot an Isengard Orc to discard a condition.", he cannot because the first card prevents him meeting its cost. However, he can play a card that states "Manoeuvre: Discard an Isengard Ord to discard a condition" because he does not need to spot the Orc to be able to discard it from play.

ket_the_jet · « **Reply #13 on:** August 14, 2010, 07:43:31 AM »

Why don't you make your dream card closer to the Phial of Galadriel, Star-Glass and just make it a transferrable condition that makes a minion lose gametext?
-wtk

Elessar's Socks · « **Reply #14 on:** August 14, 2010, 08:07:20 AM »

The term might be used for targeting (e.g. with Battle to the Last), but saying a card can't be spotted doesn't really affect anything beyond that. Take a Goblin Scimitar in the discard pile. It can't be spotted (not in play), but it can still be "targeted" by Relics of Moria.

MR. Lurtzy · « **Reply #15 on:** August 14, 2010, 02:45:57 PM »

Quote from: ket_the_jet on August 14, 2010, 07:43:31 AM

Why don't you make your dream card closer to the Phial of Galadriel, Star-Glass and just make it a transferrable condition that makes a minion lose gametext?
-wtk

Well, my goal is more along the lines of the card being "hidden" so to speak for a phase from all players. I guess preventing the card from being spotted, or the target of any abilities would be better?

Kev-La · « **Reply #16 on:** August 16, 2010, 02:17:53 AM »

Quote from: MR. Lurtzy on August 14, 2010, 02:45:57 PM

Well, my goal is more along the lines of the card being "hidden" so to speak for a phase from all players. I guess preventing the card from being spotted, or the target of any abilities would be better?

To meet that goal in its most literal sense, I would suggest "Phase:[/b]b]Phase:[/b [Cost] to make this card inactive until the end of this phase."

ket_the_jet · « **Reply #17 on:** August 16, 2010, 03:19:05 AM »

The problem is that "inactivity" has not been defined in this card game. In a game that requires the most detail in its cards as possible, this would just create another Galadriel, Lady of Light situation. What is "playing for free?"

I think the best way to do it is to have a card unable to use abilities or be targeted by events or abilities. Does that not accomplish what you wish, Lurtzy?
-wtk

MR. Lurtzy · « **Reply #18 on:** August 16, 2010, 07:13:54 PM »

Well... I don't want to create a new keyword, but that may be necessary with the complexity of this situation. Thanks guys.

Kev-La · « **Reply #19 on:** August 28, 2010, 06:13:31 PM »

Quote from: MR. Lurtzy on August 16, 2010, 07:13:54 PM

... I don't want to create a new keyword...

Hmm, how about using "not active" in some way, then. Surely, if "active" is described in the rules, "not active" would be OK...?

MR. Lurtzy · « **Reply #20 on:** August 28, 2010, 09:59:24 PM »

It's kind of a moot point, as I've already made a new keyward for it, to lessen clutter and confusion.

Perhaps you will hear more about that later.

Kev-La · « **Reply #21 on:** September 03, 2010, 12:09:33 AM »

Quote from: MR. Lurtzy on August 28, 2010, 09:59:24 PM

...I've already made a new keyward for it, to lessen clutter and confusion...

1R199
I'm imagining a furious sweeping and tidying down the halls of fallen Khazad-dum...

MR. Lurtzy · « **Reply #22 on:** September 03, 2010, 05:24:22 PM »

Quote from: Kev-La on September 03, 2010, 12:09:33 AM

1R199

Bit of a side note, but that's got to be one of the worst lores I've ever read. What makes it even worse is that it's in the first set.

Kev-La · « **Reply #23 on:** September 04, 2010, 12:45:26 AM »

Quote from: MR. Lurtzy on September 03, 2010, 05:24:22 PM

Bit of a side note, but that's got to be one of the worst lores I've ever read. What makes it even worse is that it's in the first set.

Yeah, crappy Decipher-made lore has always been a pet hate of mine, and this is a prime example.