Radagast the Brown

[Gil-Estel]

I came accross this topic on a German forum (yeah I know, I speak my languages) and I was wondering whether it was correct. If the replier also comes here, it isn't my lack of trust, it is just I want to see it confirmed by others as well
If you play radagast, and he's in your fellowship the move limit is +1. If he dies, or somehow gets discarded, does this still apply? And if it does and you are still capable of moving trice and in the regroup you replay him with Sent Back does this just add to the movelimit?
Think of the possibilities if it is.......Well I will think of them...running down the path any1?

[Kralik]

Radagast's gametext only applies when he is in play. So, no, the move limit does not continue to be +1 if he dies or is discarded. His gametext is not a boost that adds to the limit when played, unlike events such as Durin's Secret or News From the Mark. Therefore, playing him in the Fellowship phase, discarding him, and replaying him with Sent Back would not give another +1.

[NappyKorn]

what if you played him then after the triple move tossed him with sent back then used another copy to replay him? Doubt it though seeing as radagast doesn't say each time he is played the move limit is +1 but worth a shot right.

[Gil-Estel]

I had my doubts about it but the guy was so convinced....

[Kralik]

Well, here's a breakdown:

Fellowship: Play Radagast. Move limit increases from 2-->3.

First Move, Skirmishes, etc.
Second Move, Skirmishes, etc.
Third Move, Skirmishes, Radagast is toast. Move limit decreases from 3-->2.

Regoup: Sent Back, Radagast comes back from the dead! Move limit increases from 2-->3.

[NappyKorn]

as I thought but worth seeing if he can be another abusable card.

[Kralik]

If you want abusable play with Faramir, Captain of Ithilien (AFD)

[NappyKorn]

Yeah LOL to bad that card isn't real and if it was it would be on the x-list ASAP. Even banned from open too.

[Gil-Estel]

Yeah LOL to bad that card isn't real and if it was it would be on the x-list ASAP. Even banned from open too.

you think

[Elessar's Socks]

"If the move limit is modified for a turn, then that modification is in effect for the whole turn, even if the conditions for the modification change."

So if Radagast dies or is somehow discarded, the move limit +1 stays. If you replay him with Sent Back, that bumps up the move limit even more.

And yup, been trying to get that combo to work. I think one of the biggest limitations is how multiple copies of Radagast count for the Rule of 9. So that gets in the way of, say, starting 8 companions as meatshields--you'd need some way of removing companions from the dead pile.

Something I've experimented with is using Smeagol with Secret Paths as support. Radagast x4, Sent Back x4, Secret Paths x4, Momentous Gathering x4, Out of the High Airs x4... Hey, if you can get something to work, post it! I'd definitely want to take a look.

[Gil-Estel]

WOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOW....the consequenses! Think of There's another way and One Good Turn Deserves Another...Play Caras Galadhon over and over..who cares about all the twilight, just make sure that you assign the crappy minions to the skirmish.....LOVE IT!!

[Pepin The Breve]

WOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOW....the consequenses! Think of There's another way and One Good Turn Deserves Another...Play Caras Galadhon over and over..who cares about all the twilight, just make sure that you assign the crappy minions to the skirmish.....LOVE IT!!

   Bad thing is if some of that "crappy minions" is a 22 dmg+2 fierce minion   

[Kralik]

"If the move limit is modified for a turn, then that modification is in effect for the whole turn, even if the conditions for the modification change."

My first thought here was, ouch, I was wrong! but then on my second look I still disagree.
Notice the wording: "for the turn." You'll see that such wording is used when events are played that modify the move limit: Safe Paths, Last Throw... on the other hand, think of conditions like Riding Like the Wind. No such wording. If Riding Like the Wind is discarded, do you still keep the move limit bonus? Don't think so. Same for Radagast.

[DáinIronfoot]

I agree with Kralik. If you have, say, A Promise in play, does its strength bonus remain in effect if it is discarded? Of course not.

Better example: if Gandalf, Leader of the Company is in play in Region 1, each other companion is strength +2. Surely you wouldn't suggest that that strength boost would remain in effect if he were killed, would you? Or further suggest that his strength boost would double if he were somehow replayed for a total of +4 for each other companion? That's just silly talk.

Radagast works the same way. While he's in play, the move limit is +1. While he's NOT in play, the move limit is unaffected by his text, even if it WAS initially affected at the beginning of that turn. If you've already tripled you surely don't have to move back a site or anything, but unless you somehow increase the move limit again, it's back to 2 from then on out. If you get Radagast BACK in play, it goes to 3 again, but not 4.

It makes perfect sense to me. I can't understand why there's even a debate raging on this.

[TheJord]

From the Comprehensive Rule Book 4.0

"Move Limit"
If the move limit is modified for a turn, then that modification is in effect for the whole turn, even if the conditions for the modification change.

So since Radagast was alive at the beginning of the turn, the move limit was modified +1 and thus stays 3 unless modified down regardless of whether Radagast dies before the end of the turn.

This is a quote from M_H on CC regarding this same question. ES has it right.

[DáinIronfoot]

That's...crazy.

And then I guess it's increased each time you play Radagast, too?

I'm off to design a badly broken Frodo/Radagast only deck with lots of Sent Back and just move as much as possible, add as little other twilight as possible, and run to the end of the game in like two or three turns.

Seriously, that's messed up. Bad form, Decipher.

[HawkeyeSPF]

That's just how it is man. Look through decks from all the World's tournaments after Reflections came out (if you can find them that is - try decktech.net) - almost every one of them packed Radagast for this reason. Drop Rad at 6, let him die at 7 so you don't  add more twilight than you need to when you move to 8 and 9.

[Kralik]

So maybe I'm just being picky, but the "for a turn" wording isn't significant?

[TheJord]

It is, but remember that "turn" encompasses all the moves you make, be it 1, 2, 3 or more moves.

[Elessar's Socks]

Doesn't seem so, Kralik--wish I could give you a better answer why the wording is inconsistent. But it's the way I've consistently seen it ruled; besides the ruling from Merrick that TheJord brought up, here's one from Bib on the same issue.

Once you modify the move limit, it counts as modifying the move limit for a turn (whether the card uses "for this turn" or not). Maybe Decipher thought "The move limit is +1 for this turn" on Radagast might cause confusion about whether it's a one-turn only deal, because as a companion he'll stick around (or apparently not in Worlds), and he also lacks a trigger. I dunno, sort of pulled that explanation out of my rear just now.

I'm off to design a badly broken Frodo/Radagast only deck with lots of Sent Back and just move as much as possible, add as little other twilight as possible, and run to the end of the game in like two or three turns.

If you build it, I will want to see it.

[NappyKorn]

Cool that makes my Wizard Choke Deck even better

[AgentDrake]

IIRC, the purpose of that whole "if the move limit is modified for a turn...." clarification in the first place was specifically because of the confusion over Radagast, and was to say that the move limit change sticks around, and can add up. Poorly worded, and, IMO, should've been ruled the other way, but oh well.

[Kralik]

Once you modify the move limit, it counts as modifying the move limit for a turn (whether the card uses "for this turn" or not). Maybe Decipher thought "The move limit is +1 for this turn" on Radagast might cause confusion about whether it's a one-turn only deal, because as a companion he'll stick around (or apparently not in Worlds), and he also lacks a trigger. I dunno, sort of pulled that explanation out of my rear just now.

It just seems wrong! Ah, well. Let's see those decks!

[Shieldmaiden]

Very interesting debate, I'm watching this with great interest.  I can see the arguments for both sides.  And now I'm going to add fuel to the fire.    

So, you play Radagast, and the move limit is increased by 1.  You move twice, then Radagast is killed!  Do you get to move again?  When I've played, the answer has been no, but now that I'm reading this thread, I'm not sure about that anymore.   

[TheJord]

If you play Radagast and move, then he dies, you can still move the amount that Radagast had modified the move limit to.

Radagast is played - move limit +1
Radagast dies        - move limit still +1 for that turn, the next fellowship phase it will return to normal

This rule applies universally. Another situation would be Theoden, The Renowned with Theodred out. The move limit is +1 when Theoden can spot Theodred. If either die, the move limit is still +1 for that turn. Again, Riding Like The Wind is out, gets discarded, its move limit bonus applies until the end of the turn.

Silly I know, but since when did Decipher make sense?

[Elessar's Socks]

I would say I agree with TheJord, except we're in danger of forming a loop. *LOL* (But I believe that's the correct interpretation of the rule.)

The reason might have to do with Bree Gate and Rivendell Waterfall from all the way back in the FotR set. If the modification doesn't stick, you'll lose the bonus once you move from those sites.

Agreed the rule is hardly intuitive, though.

[Kralik]

The reason might have to do with Bree Gate and Rivendell Waterfall from all the way back in the FotR set. If the modification doesn't stick, you'll lose the bonus once you move from those sites.

Maybe... though they still say explicitly, "for this turn." That's why I was wondering if it still works the same way when that exact wording is not used.

[DáinIronfoot]

The reason might have to do with Bree Gate and Rivendell Waterfall from all the way back in the FotR set. If the modification doesn't stick, you'll lose the bonus once you move from those sites.

Maybe... though they still say explicitly, "for this turn." That's why I was wondering if it still works the same way when that exact wording is not used.

Ditto. They seem to be two different things.

Of course, "take control of a site" and "control a site" seem like two different things but apparently are interchangeable since the release of Treachery & Deceit, so....

Oh, and I wasn't ACTUALLY going to design a deck around Frodo and Radagast, but I suppose I could....

[Malachi]

Looks like this new (old) CRD's resolves the issue.

If you play a second copy of Radagast in the same
turn, the move limit is an additional +1.

[DáinIronfoot]

This is why we need a player committee...to get rid of ridiculous rulings like this one.

[NappyKorn]

It's doesn't get ridiclous until you control the path and move to battlegrounds and use that event that lets you get your Sent Backs from the discard pile then use Gandalf's Hat to remove the twilight before the extended move limit . Of Course you will need a beefy Gandalf with Foe-Hammer and possible another burden peeling engine to get rid of the burdens added for Gandalf's Hat and such. Now that could be ridiculous. 

[HawkeyeSPF]

This is why we need a player committee...to get rid of ridiculous rulings like this one.

I was actually going to PM you about this - look for it soon.

[Elessar's Socks]

I don't think it's actually broken until... well, I see something very broken. The Radagast / Sent Back combo has been out since Reflections.

Personally I think it's pretty cool. And if someone can design a broken deck abusing the combo, and that can still set up quickly enough for a win in 2-3 moves, well... it's something I've been attempting so I'd definitely be interested in taking a look.

[TheJord]

Keeping the twilight down, even with Gandalf's Hat, would be a challenge. And the burdens....

There is surely someone who has made this combo, it is, as ES pointed out, about 4 years old.

[Elf_Lvr]

It's not really broken - not in the same way that "Infinite Gandalf" or "Fruit Loops" is broken. If you have to build an entire deck around a combo, it's probably not broken unless it's auto-win. This may give you a massive move limit - but it wouldn't stop the shadow player from killing you. Nor could you win in one turn, probably not even two. And a 1-3, 3-6, 6-9 move is possible with just Raddy.

If anyone makes an 'unbeatable' deck around this combo, we can talk about changing rulings and stuff.

I think they ruled it the way it did to avoid any confusion about making the move limit -1 if Radagast died and was discarded... and the possibility of having to make a different ruling if a move limit of -1 was reached (which would be possible if the move limit was made -1 when Raddy died). It may be a bit weird, but nothing game-breaking, surely.

EDIT: NK, the battleground text of Gandy's Hat makes that combo waaaaaaay too out there. Unless you can manage 3+ burdens each move...

[Elessar's Socks]

Ah, good point about a 3-turn win just by drawing Radagast early. So I guess it really becomes impressive when you get down to 2 turns. Even then, in a deck for example I think it's just easier to run Radagast and pack extra copies of Last Throw.

[ephen]

So this would work with Enraged Southron too , combo with forced march to make them move much more than they wanted too?

[Elessar's Socks]

Don't see why not.

[ephen]

And that would work even if enraged southron died, and it would add it up you were able to replay it somehow?

[Elessar's Socks]

Yes, modifications to the move limit last for the entire turn.

[Kralik]

Sounds interesting. Wasn't there a card that forces the Freeps to move as well?

[TheJord]

No Retreat

[Kralik]

This has potential...

[Not a Zombie]

I have a dunland deck centered around the Saruman/No Retreat combo and site control, its pretty fun.

[ephen]

Okay jsut to make sure I understand this, how does Riding Like the Wind work, if its gets discarded the move limit increase remains? what is I cant spot 2 mounts? Could you play 4 copies then play sleep, caradhras to avoid the exertion and get a +4 to the move limit?

[Elessar's Socks]

Riding Like the Wind works the same way. I guess the use of "while" could be misleading, since it might be expected to turn off, but it's a convenient way to govern when the bonus actually triggers. As soon as you can spot 2 mounts, the move limit is +1. Discarding it with Sleep, Caradhras won't affect the modification.

[ephen]

Doesn't seem to make sense but I guess the +1 on move limit is different than the +1 on a card like a promise for some reason thanks to Decipher.

[Elessar's Socks]

Think of it as an exception. This is from the "move limit" entry in the Comprehensive Rulebook:

If the move limit is modified for a turn, then that modification is in effect for the whole turn, even if the conditions for the modification change.

So normally it works like you think. If A Promise is discarded the strength bonus is lost. Move limits just happen to be a special case.

[Gil-Estel]

this indeed looks promising