Treebeard exert

[Thunderbird]

can treebeard keeper of the watchwood exert just to play my condition or just discard a shadow condition? or do you have to play a condition and dump a condition?

[MarcinS]

can treebeard keeper of the watchwood exert just to play my condition or just discard a shadow condition? or do you have to play a condition and dump a condition?

"If you meet all the requirements and pay all the costs for playing a card, you may play that card even if the card will have no effect."
and
"If the effect of a card or special ability requires you to perform an action and you cannot, you must perform as much as you can and ignore the rest."

So in other words, once you play the Treebeard action and exert him (cost, because it's before "to"), you have to do as much as possible - so if you have a gandalf condition in your discard pile that is playable at the time, you have to play it AND you have to choose a shadow player to discard his or her shadow condition from play.

[Thunderbird]

thanks. to clarify i can exert treebeard to play condition but if theres no condition to discard then i dont have to right?

[Yrael]

thanks. to clarify i can exert treebeard to play condition but if theres no condition to discard then i dont have to right?

Correct, but if there is a condition to discard, then you have to discard it. Likewise, if you exert Treebeard to get rid of a condition, you have to play one out if you can, which can rarely be a disadvantage. (For example, if you are forced to play numenor's pride, but do not want to add the threats)

[Thunderbird]

thanks! that helps

[hsiale]

Likewise, if you exert Treebeard to get rid of a condition, you have to play one out if you can

You have to be able to play a condition to use Treebeard. This is the only exception to "do as much as you can" rule.

"If you perform an action that has playing a card from your hand or discard pile as part of its effect, you must play that card. This exception applies to all kinds of actions and all the different ways you can play a card (except playing a card directly from your draw deck)."

So you can't use Treebeard, KotW only to get rid of opponent's condition, you can't use They Are Coming to get rid of cards in your hand you don't need, but you can play Simbelmyne for no effect (if you have no characters and possessions in your draw deck).

[Thunderbird]

two answers contradict? who's correct ?

[hsiale]

I would say I'm correct but of course I can be biased

But, as Marcin has just started another thread on similar issue, I guess at first he overlooked the rules part that I quoted.

[Thunderbird]

you said "If you perform an action that has playing a card from your hand or discard pile as part of its effect, you must play that card."
does that mean i have to play the card only if i have the card?

[Tbiesty]

Likewise, if you exert Treebeard to get rid of a condition, you have to play one out if you can

So you can't use Treebeard, KotW only to get rid of opponent's condition, you can't use They Are Coming to get rid of cards in your hand you don't need, but you can play Simbelmyne for no effect (if you have no characters and possessions in your draw deck).

You can still use Treebeard, KotW.  As long as you perform the cost (exerting Treebeard), you are just required to perform as much of the effect (making opponent discard a condition, and you playing one of yours from your discard pile). The rule here is just reiterating that if you use Treebeard, KotW and there is a condition in your discard pile that can be played, you must play it.  It isn't saying that you must be able to play a condition in order to use Treebeard's ability.

The same is true for They Are Coming. You may use the ability and discard 3 cards from hand as much as you want, it just means that each time you do, if there is a orc in your discard pile that you can play, you must play it.

[Thunderbird]

thanks Tbiesty! i think you clarified it well.

[hsiale]

The problem is that the way he clarified it is not what the rules say. The exception in rules is not reiterating anything, it is changing the general rule of performing as much as you can - if the effect is playing a card (from hand, discard pile, adventure deck, other card - anywhere except draw deck), you must be able to perform it and you must perform it.

So, with examples:

You can't exert Treebeard, KotW only to destroy your opponent's condition (but you can exert him only to play your condition).
You can't discard cards from hand using They Are Coming when your discard pile contains no Orc you can play.
Similarly, you can't discard cards from hand using Gorgoroth Sapper if you have no Orc stacked on a site you control that you can play.
And you can't exert a Hobbit using Hobbiton Woods if your site 2 already is on the adventure path.
But you can use The Prancing Pony* to add as many burdens as you want (because it allows you to play a card from draw deck, and this is exception to exception, mentioned in rulebook), no matter if you have Aragorn in your draw deck, on the table, somewhere else or not at all - of course if during adding the first burden you have at least one Aragorn in draw deck, no Aragorn in play and nothing else stops you from playing companions (for example you don't have 9 of them in play).

[TheJord]

Unfortunately hsiale all of what you are saying is incorrect.

The cost-effect rule states you pay a cost, then perform as much of the effect as possible.

They Are Coming - cost = discard 3, effect = play a minion from your discard pile.
Just because there is no minion in your pile, does not mean you are unable to pay the cost.

These are the rules, and this question has been asked, and answered, many times.

[MarcinS]

They Are Coming - cost = discard 3, effect = play a minion from your discard pile.
Just because there is no minion in your pile, does not mean you are unable to pay the cost.

These are the rules, and this question has been asked, and answered, many times.

Umm, that directly contradicts what Elessar's Socks said in "Playing a card as a card effect" thread a moment ago:

Question:
So if I have a Galadriel from FotR in play.
1. Can I exert her to use her ability, even if I have no Elf in hand?
His answer:
No - "If an action plays a card from your hand (or discard pile) as part of its effect, then that card must be in your hand (or discard pile) before you can begin to perform that action." ("effect")

[Thunderbird]

the great debate is on! whos correct???

[hsiale]

The cost-effect rule states you pay a cost, then perform as much of the effect as possible.

Yes, but the cost-effect rule has one single exception, which is also mentioned in the rules (in the "effect" section). And this exception is when the effect (or one of the effects) is playing a card in any way except directly from draw deck. Galadriel plays elf from hand, They Are Coming plays orc from discard pile, so both fall under this exception and can't be used according to cost-effect rule.

[TheJord]

I think ES is confused. This rule is to prevent you using They Are Coming in the manner it explains in the rulebook; you cannot use They Are Coming to discard a minion, then play that minion using the effect of They Are Coming.

Galadriel, Lady of Light cannot exert to play an Elf for free, if, by exerting, you will now have an Elf in your hand. Due to the requirement laid out in the rules, effects playing cards from hand or discard pile require you to play that card if you can.

This is the cost-effect rule.

One misinterpreted section of the rulebook does not change this. You have misread this section

If an action plays a card from your hand (or discard pile) as part of its effect, then that card
must be in your hand (or discard pile) before you can begin to perform that action

to mean that the card must be in your hand in order to pay the cost. This is incorrect.

It means, the card would have to be in your hand before the costs are paid in order to be played.

The cost-effect rule is not changed by this one line. You have misread it.

[Elessar's Socks]

This is from the 9/3/2002 CRD, which goes into some more detail:

If you meet all the requirements and pay all the costs for playing a card, you may play that card, even if the card will have no effect.

Exception: If you perform an action that has playing a card from your hand or discard pile as part of its effect, you must play that card.

This exception applies to all kinds of actions (playing event cards, using special abilities, "when you play" game text, and so on) and all the different ways you can play a card (except playing a card from your draw deck).

Examples: You must verify that you have a Moria Orc in your discard pile and enough twilight tokens to pay for that Orc before you discard cards for the action on They Are Coming (remember, you can always look through your own discard pile). You may not use the action on Beneath the Mountains if you don't have a Dwarven weapon in your discard pile. You may not play Morgul Gates if you don't have a Nazgûl in your hand.

So regarding "Can I exert [Galadriel LoL] to use her ability, even if I have no Elf in hand?" I think the answer is still no, but the reason should've been "If you perform an action that has playing a card from your hand or discard pile as part of its effect, you must play that card." I think TheJord is correct in my misuse of the other rule, as that seems to be emphasizing a particular card (i.e. "If you want to play this specific Elf, then that Elf must already be...").

[Tbiesty]

Examples: You must verify that you have a Moria Orc in your discard pile and enough twilight tokens to pay for that Orc before you discard cards for the action on They Are Coming (remember, you can always look through your own discard pile). You may not use the action on Beneath the Mountains if you don't have a Dwarven weapon in your discard pile. You may not play Morgul Gates if you don't have a Nazgûl in your hand.

Interesting.  I wasn't aware of those specific examples.

If that is indeed how it works, then the exception itself was not worded very well to explain that.

It should have been worded more like this:

"Exception: In order to perform an action that has playing a card (except from your draw deck) as part of its effect, you must verify that the card can actually be played before you can perform the action."

[TheJord]

I would still disagree on the Galadriel, Lady of Light example; ie she could exert for no effect, but frankly anyone who did this would deserve to have all their cards burned.

[Elessar's Socks]

If that is indeed how it works, then the exception itself was not worded very well to explain that.

I agree it could have been worded better. Personally the connection made in the CRD seems a bit of a stretch to me, but as I remember something in there stops us from using TAC when nothing can be fetched from the discard pile. I also seem to recall Decipher not liking cycling being too easy, which might be one reason why Don't Look at Them and They Stole It were clarified to having to spot Smeagol/Gollum (as wounding doesn't fall under the exception).

[azogsbane]

The Jord is the high king of rules, so I guess that settles it.

[Not a Zombie]

I would still disagree on the Galadriel, Lady of Light example; ie she could exert for no effect, but frankly anyone who did this would deserve to have all their cards burned.

There is a good reason for doing it, cycling. You have another LoL in your hand. I would say you can't exert and not play an elf, for the same reasons as ES. But I don't care a whole lot either way.

[TheJord]

I would still disagree on the Galadriel, Lady of Light example; ie she could exert for no effect, but frankly anyone who did this would deserve to have all their cards burned.

There is a good reason for doing it, cycling. You have another LoL in your hand. I would say you can't exert and not play an elf, for the same reasons as ES. But I don't care a whole lot either way.

Cycling? How does exerting Galadriel, LoL for no effect cycle?

[Air Power]

It only works if you have another copy in your hand:

exert LoL for no effect (can't play additional copy due to uniqueness)

discard from hand to heal the copy in play

[azogsbane]

It only works if you have another copy in your hand:

exert LoL for no effect (can't play additional copy due to uniqueness)

discard from hand to heal the copy in play

Can you do that with allies? I've always thought that rule only applied to unique companions. But I'd love to be corrected here.

[MarcinS]

Can you do that with allies? I've always thought that rule only applied to unique companions. But I'd love to be corrected here.

Here you go, from "Comprehensive Rules":
""Discard to heal." Spot a unique companion or unique ally with at least one wound and discard a card from your hand with the same card title (it may have a different subtitle) to heal that character."