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Author Topic: Why do people still play mono-Dwarfs in Expanded?  (Read 4214 times)

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August 24, 2016, 06:42:26 AM
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sgtdraino

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Why do people still play mono-Dwarfs in Expanded?
« on: August 24, 2016, 06:42:26 AM »
Just curious.

I'm continually astonished at how often I encounter players playing monoculture Dwarfs in Expanded Format, because to me it seems like an extremely flawed strategy. That is mainly due to Ulaire Nertea, Dark Horseman of course, and it seems like a lot of mono-Dwarf players get mad when they see that guy show up to fight Gimli over and over and over until he corrupts.

They know the card is out there, they know it's popular, and they know a mono-Dwarf deck is totally vulnerable to Dark Horseman, which is easy to sprinkle into pretty much any deck. They also know Dark Horseman is really not that tough to counter, by simply playing one or two other cultures. Heck, just chuck in Grimbeorn! And yet the mono-Dwarf deck persists in its popularity. I don't get it! Am I missing something?

Somebody please enlighten me.
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August 24, 2016, 07:25:38 AM
Reply #1

Dictionary

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Re: Why do people still play mono-Dwarfs in Expanded?
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2016, 07:25:38 AM »
Interesting question. I guess it's natural for newer players to fall for this, but I think part of deck-building is adapting your deck to get around problems like this. So after losing to Dark Horseman a couple of times, you would tweak your deck to account for him.

I do sometimes see dwarves with Smeagol or (As you mentioned) Grimbeorn, but not very frequently. Mono-dwarf does see a fair bit of play though, especially for discard decks. But it's not just Dwarves that do this, I've seen a fair few mono-elf decks and (less frequently) mono-man decks in the past few months. Mono-elves have more ways to deal with Dark Horseman, but in my opinion it's a bad idea to have only a single race in any expanded deck. Even if it's just the Ring-bearer that's a different race (which can still be bad) this at least prevents Dark Horseman from merrily going off to join another minion's skirmish.

To expand on this question a bit though, I've never really followed why people like to put 3 cards on the same unbound companion (Without including Grima counters) or to use 4 or 5 cultures, as it simply opens them up to taking a lot of damage from Grima or other such cards. Maybe I'm just overly cautious when it comes to this sort of thing. :-S That said, I did have a [Gondor] / [Rohan] / [Gandalf] deck once that still managed to only include companions with the race of Man, and didn't notice till Nertea showed up.
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August 24, 2016, 07:53:09 AM
Reply #2

sgtdraino

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Re: Why do people still play mono-Dwarfs in Expanded?
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2016, 07:53:09 AM »
Interesting question. I guess it's natural for newer players to fall for this, but I think part of deck-building is adapting your deck to get around problems like this. So after losing to Dark Horseman a couple of times, you would tweak your deck to account for him.

You'd think that, but I feel like I encounter the same players over long periods of time who still like to use mono-Dwarfs.

I do sometimes see dwarves with Smeagol or (As you mentioned) Grimbeorn, but not very frequently.

I also see Dwarfs with Gandalf. I just played against one of those a little while ago. I still won, but simply by adding Gandalf, I did not succeed in getting ANY burdens on Gimli before the game ended.

Mono-dwarf does see a fair bit of play though, especially for discard decks. But it's not just Dwarves that do this, I've seen a fair few mono-elf decks

Yeah, but Galadriel doesn't penalize you when she fights, and with all the tricks Elves have, she's still pretty hard to overwhelm.

and (less frequently) mono-man decks in the past few months.

I applaud the efforts, but I think it's REALLY tough for mono-Man to be effective.

in my opinion it's a bad idea to have only a single race in any expanded deck. Even if it's just the Ring-bearer that's a different race (which can still be bad) this at least prevents Dark Horseman from merrily going off to join another minion's skirmish.

Agreed.

To expand on this question a bit though, I've never really followed why people like to put 3 cards on the same unbound companion (Without including Grima counters)

Mostly I only see this happen with (again) Dwarfs. But they are so possession and artifact-dependent, I think it's hard for those players to resist that.

or to use 4 or 5 cultures, as it simply opens them up to taking a lot of damage from Grima or other such cards.

Well, the key (of course) is just what you said: Have a Grima counter. I think the muti-culture decks that don't, are probably banking on the idea of setting up and running so quickly, that it won't matter. Or they're just hoping the opponent won't be playing with anti-rainbow cards. And I do feel like I encounter anti-rainbow cards a lot less often than I encounter Grima, Wormtongue.

Of course Horn decks are big multiculture decks, but they mostly set up for a Shadow kill, or (lately) they're actually cautious enough to stop at 3 cultures.

Maybe I'm just overly cautious when it comes to this sort of thing. :-S That said, I did have a [Gondor] / [Rohan] / [Gandalf] deck once that still managed to only include companions with the race of Man, and didn't notice till Nertea showed up.

Hilarous!
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August 24, 2016, 12:17:00 PM
Reply #3

Shelobplayer

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Re: Why do people still play mono-Dwarfs in Expanded?
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2016, 12:17:00 PM »
In expanded a deck should be prepared to deal with Southron Leader, Dark Horseman, Wormtongue and shotgun Enquea same as older formats should abide the rule of 5, or have a way around it.

Every format has those kind of cards, like Grond or LR or corsair ships in movie.

People play expanded ignorant of this most generic knowledge then get mad at you for winning with it, and go around saying that expanded is broken, and that you are one trick pony etc. etc. (because building mono dwarves for example deserves a medal for sure). Part the reason why I play less and less.

Meh... /rage
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 12:18:57 PM by Shelobplayer »

August 24, 2016, 08:46:07 PM
Reply #4

ramolnar

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Re: Why do people still play mono-Dwarfs in Expanded?
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2016, 08:46:07 PM »
Because not every player is about winning all the time. People want to play thematic fellowships like dwarves. I gain a different type of enjoyment from playing thematic fellowships than Madril, GLR, or Nertea.

Cards that are close to auto-victories against other decks cause NPEs, Negative Play Experiences. Ulaire Nertea, Dark Horseman is an NPE card. Sam, Son of Hamfast is an NPE card. Madril is an NPE card. Galadriel Lady Redeemed is an NPE card. One Good Turn Deserves Another is an NPE card. All those cards say "I cannot try to win with one half of my deck" in a way that something like Savagery to Match their Numbers does not. Savagery is more consistently powerful than most of the cards I listed, but it doesn't shut down a side.

Although I greatly appreciate MarcinS and Gemp for making LotR play possible, how I'm still playing 15 years after first release, online play is not the same as in-person. In-person, mature players realized that you had some responsibility for creating a Positive Play Experience for your opponent. Ordinary events were not the place to run NPE decks. Premier events? Sure, all is fair. Otherwise, variety and theme were also praised. Half of all LotR games are lost. Not many store communities were large enough to drive people away - and crushing people with NPE decks drives people away. See, for instance, the pre-errata The Mirror of Galadriel. Or the introduction of the X-list. There was opposition to both changes; those opponents tended to be more play-to-win players.

I play mostly Tier 1 and Tier 2 decks, but I really have more fun with weaker decks that are more thematic or more puzzling - like Return to Its Master in Fellowship Block and Southron archery in Movie Block. One reason I don't like post-Movie Block formats is that the site path removed the sense of journey. The game became "Fights around Middle Earth."
I'll turn the question around, particularly for you who routinely play NPE cards - do you gain nothing from thematic builds?

August 24, 2016, 09:24:23 PM
Reply #5

Air Power

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Re: Why do people still play mono-Dwarfs in Expanded?
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2016, 09:24:23 PM »
Ramolnar, I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but not specifically about Dark Horseman.

The difference that I see is that GLR destroys entire strategies beyond redemption, but any deck can overcome Dark Horseman by splashing one companion.  Want a fellowship of dwarves?  Great, bring Gandalf along.  The reason a deck loses to Dark Horseman, like to the shotgun, is because it wasn't built for the known threats.

I don't enjoy an environment where the game turns into rock-paper-scissors based on what deck my opponent brings, but if my deck can still function with minor changes to overcome a threat and I'm the one refusing to make those changes, then I'm causing my own experience (negative or otherwise).
"If the world becomes pagan and perishes, the last man left alive would do well to quote the Iliad and die." -G.K. Chesterton, The Everlasting Man

August 25, 2016, 07:28:22 AM
Reply #6

ket_the_jet

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Re: Why do people still play mono-Dwarfs in Expanded?
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2016, 07:28:22 AM »
If :gp: was still active on this website, ramolnar would get one.
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