Hobbit Draft's Spider Culture

[Phallen Cassidy]

I'm not sure where else to post this - I'm more than a little concerned about the Spider culture. Just looking through the cards, I've created a deck to play spiders from wherever they may lie for between (at a forest) and 12 twilight (absolute worst case scenario) no matter how many spiders you can put out. You'll be very unlucky if you ever actually need 12 twilight, and even if you do there's no need to fret. You can still play 5+ spiders with whatever you've got! I hereby christen this deck Crazy Cob's Transform Swarm, though I am open to suggestions

It all starts when the Free Peoples moves to site 5. The Shadow player needs to have Spider Nest out, which shouldn't be too problematic (though I know it is limited to 2 copies). For the sake of argument we'll say the Shadow player has a copy of Great Goblin's Power on the board as well, and neither Crazy Cob nor Old Tomnoddy are in your hand (very easy to ensure). A realistic hand is 3+ spiders (at most one of which is Lazy Lob) and 2+ orcs (or some way to play them - Host of Thousands and Hatred Rekindled are easy to come by) capable of surviving any direct wounding before skirmishes. 5 minions in hand sounds reasonable, right? The exact cards you'll play depends on which spiders are in your hand, but the idea is as follows:

• Play the orcs in your hand. Let's suppose we have an Goblin Sneak and an Goblin Runner, playing at a net cost of . We'll say that the Free Peoples has no direct wounding before the assignment phase, and skip to that.
  
• Using Spider Nest, discard the Goblin Runner to play Crazy Cob. Crazy Cob is special - play him from draw deck if you can, otherwise from discard.
  
• Use Spider Nest again to discard the Goblin Sneak and play Old Tomnoddy from discard or draw deck. Use Crazy Cob's text to play one of your spiders from hand, and use Old Tomnoddy's text to replay the Goblin Runner from discard, spotting the Moria condition to add back to the twilight pool.
  
• Repeat the last step, playing a spider and Old Tomnoddy to replay the Goblin Runner. Always prioritize playing spiders from your discard pile to increase your chances of drawing them for the next phase, just in case Bilbo survives.
  
  To play 3 spiders from your hand along with 6 from your discard pile/draw deck will cost at most 12 twilight. This is the worst case scenario in which you are not at a forest, Bilbo has no doubts for Fat Spiders, and you only have Fat Spiders or Lazy Lob in your hand (since you'll only ever be spotting 1 orc). Additionally, 3 of these spiders are strength +2 from Crazy Cob. If Bilbo has a single doubt on him, you can put 9 fierce minions on the board for twilight anywhere.
  
  Now, if you have 3 Orcs you can play, you can also play Lazy Lob for free. Best case scenario: you play 3 Goblin Runners, you can spot a Moria card at a forest site, and Bilbo has at least one doubt (frankly, he should have many doubts about his life choices at this point. He should seriously doubt his chances, at least). To play 4 spiders from hand and 6 from draw deck/discard pile will cost for Crazy Cob, for each spider in hand and for each other spider from draw deck/discard pile. The Free Peoples now has to deal with 10 fierce spiders for , with ADDED from the Goblin Runners. Take that, choke decks!
  
  If that wasn't bad enough, you can do it all again at every site from 5-9, since all you need are some orcs and spiders (which is why you prioritize discarded spiders first). For via Watchful Orc, you can play all copies of Old Tomnoddy for instead of at any site. Since you can plan on having additional twilight, bigger orcs can be used instead to absorb any wounding the free peoples might throw out before replacing them with spiders. As long as you have a Goblin Runner in your discard pile, Old Tomnoddy's text just requires you to spot 2 twilight and Crazy Cob pulls a free spider from your hand every time you do.
  
  Because Spider Nest can play from both draw deck and discard pile, this loop can ALWAYS be used with just one accessible Goblin Runner and any other Moria card for it to spot, even with no spiders in hand or in discard. In fact, if a single Orc survives to the assignment phase, for twilight you can turn that little guy into 5 spiders (or at a forest or having used Watchful Orc) - 4 copies of Old Tomnoddy and another spider of your choice. Since you don't have an extra orc to play Crazy Cob from your draw deck, you don't get to play any spiders for free from hand but STILL manage to put 5 fierce minions on the board. Watchful Orc can be replayed from discard as needed via Host of Thousands or Hatred Rekindled to keep the cost low, and a player can easily ensure that they can play 9+ spiders every turn.
  
  Of course, Spider Nest will be a quick target for condition removal, but Crazy Cob can do his part in many ways, as discarding an orc is a common cost for Hobbit Draft. Pair him with Trolls, Gollum, or any of the unique Gundabad minions available in the Main Deck. I don't think I need to go on about how crazy Crazy Cob can get
  
  I have some ideas for how I'd balance this, but I thought it would be more fitting to present it to the people who've been working on (and actually playing) this game for a while. Have I got something wrong? Am I doing something illegal here? I certainly hope the Free Peoples aren't simply powerful enough to take this on for 5 sites straight. How did this work out in the playtests?

[-Enola-]

This is perfectly correct. We know this combo from the beginning of the game, but we never saw it because it's a draft game. There is a lot of cards involved (3x Goblin Runner, Spider Nest, 4x Old Tomnody, Crazy Cob), and Goblin Runner and Old Tomnody are taken quickly by most of the players.

Moreover, the FP player often waits site 5 to use his Ancestral Knowledge or/and Kili/Battle of Azanulbizar against Spiders (Spider swarm doesn't come before site 5).

If there is a powerful combo with many cards involved, the players will draft it and nobody will be able to use it.

At the moment don't put Spider Nest on gemp, but 4 Crazy Cob and 4 Lazy Lob (instead of 3 each).

[-Enola-]

I think these quantities might solve the problem of "constructed format vs draft format": -1 copy of each card according to the draft game quantities.


Format: "Hobbit: A Short Rest"

All card images are here: http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Boosters.html

Free Peoples

Followers
2x • Old Thrush  
2x • Beorn    
1x • Gwaihir  

Allies
2x • Thranduil, Elven King  
1x • Tauriel, Staunch Defender  
1x • Legolas, Prince of Mirkwood  
1x • Elf Army  
2x • Radagast  

Artifacts
2x • Emeralds of Girion
2x • Mithril Coat  
2x • The Arkenstone
2x • Wizard Staff    

Possessions
2x • Burglar's Contract  
2x An Acorn from Beorn's house  
1x Dwarven Axe  
1x • Great Barricade  
1x • Oakenshield  

Events
1x Barrels  
1x Skillful negociator  
1x An Invisible Ring    
2x The Evil Becomes Stronger  
2x Dwarven Song  
1x Eagles Are Coming  
1x His Wrath Was Redoubled  


Shadow

Minions
1x • The Great Goblin
3x Goblin Runner  
3x Goblin Sneak  
2x • Crazy Cob
2x • Lazy Lob
3x Old Tomnoddy
3x Fat Spider
3x Wicked Spider
2x • Bert
2x • Tom
2x • William
2x • Azog, The Defiler
1x • Bolg, Son of Azog
2x • Gollum, Small Slimy Creature
2x • Bolg, Servant of Sauron  

Artifacts
1x • The Arkenstone, King's Jewel  
  
Possessions
3x Goblin Scimitar
2x Troll Knife
2x Threatening Warg
2x War-Warg
3x Warg
2x Savage Warg    

Conditions
1x Goblin Swarms  
3x Great Goblin's Power  
1x Spider Nest
2x • Troll Campfire
2x • Riddles in the Dark
1x • Caught In A Sack  
1x • Ancestral Feuds  
1x • Enchanted River  

Events
3x Better Than Nothing
2x If He Loses
2x Goblin Song  


Sites

1x Site 1 Bilbo's Kitchen
1x Site 2 Trollshaw Forest
1x Site 3 Rhudaur
1x Site 4 Wooded Steep Cliff
1x Site 4 Underground Lake
1x Site 4 Beorn's House
1x Site 5 Old Forest Road
1x Site 5 Forest River
1x Site 6 Lake Town
1x Site 7 Dale
1x Site 9 Ravenhill
1x Site 9 Thror's Throne  


What do you think ? It will be similar for the second format "The Clouds Burst".

[Phallen Cassidy]

I'll make the changes Monday or so. My real issue with constructed vs draft is that right now, the constructed format is being balanced by giving the player less control over his deck. This was something of a feature of the draft game (that players were competing for cards), but is entirely unheard of for constructed. But as you say, once MarcinS approves the framework we'll see what works and what doesn't.

[-Enola-]

Sure, but less control is a way to balance a format: like a X-list or a R-list.

[Durin's Heir]

Swarm packs were made stronger, to be able to work without ideal conditions. Enola said time ago that the percentage of cards of a targeted shadow that players usually got from draft is around 70% the total. So they must hit hard, unlike Beatdown shadows which play less cards per site (so naturally need less cards to be effective).

I got another idea to counter that Swarm power. Instead of reducing cards, all companions might have 2 copies each. That way they'll be played sooner (crowd against swarm), and will get healing (useful with self-exerting Dwarves). Then Kili and Dwalin would be more present, would have better surviving chances and a bit more power. Those Dwarves are specialist against Swarms.

Besides, those extra copies can be used by Ori and Óin as fuel.

I believe it'll be better adding copies than reducing.

[-Enola-]

Swarm packs were made stronger, to be able to work without ideal conditions. Enola said time ago that the percentage of cards of a targeted shadow that players usually got from draft is around 70% the total. So they must hit hard, unlike Beatdown shadows which play less cards per site (so naturally need less cards to be effective).

Yes, you're right. The Swarm shadows need more cards than the Beatdown shadows, that's why they will be much more powerful if we get all cards from these shadows.

The Goblin shadow seems similar to swarm in FOTR, but it's far more powerful:
- No Power accroding to his Stature
- Not At Home brings back conditions
- Ways to discard allies and followers (Narzug and Yazneg)
- The Great Goblin discards an annoying event
- Crowd control at each turn (Orkish Marauder)
- Lot of cards in the supplementary Packs which help the swarm (Bolg Servant, Enchanted River, Dark Bats, The Great Enemy...)

I got another idea to counter that Swarm power. Instead of reducing cards, all companions might have 2 copies each. That way they'll be played sooner (crowd against swarm), and will get healing (useful with self-exerting Dwarves). Then Kili and Dwalin would be more present, would have better surviving chances and a bit more power. Those Dwarves are specialist against Swarms.

Besides, those extra copies can be used by Ori and Óin as fuel.

I believe it'll be better adding copies than reducing.

Since the game is made for a draft game, I prefer to mimic the end of a draft: less copies than more. We might change this after the first tests on gemp.

[Durin's Heir]

There's also no Aragorn's Bow, Horn of Boromir, Thrarin DS or choke mechanisms such as Aragorn HttWC, Glamdring & Sting (Set 1 versions), NSttS and Bill the Pony.


I don't think that reducing card availability is bad to correct the problem of the Spider swarm. It'll probably be enough. The problem I see is the cost that implies such balancing. Deckbuilders' hands are already tied to some degree, and this will tighten the string even more. So you can end up trading the "OP Spiders" problem with a new "tied hands" one...

Anyway, I don't have any problem with reducing all cards in Shadow Packs to max 3 copies. But those that have 2 copies shouldn't get almost erased by having merely 1... Think about the Ring of Thrór (The Clouds Burst will be included at some moment): 1 copy only will destroy any reliable impact. Even worse in big decks...

Is the same that happens with Forces of Mordor in FOTR block (R-listed): since you cannot build the deck around that card, and since it's too unlikely to have it in the right moment, players simply don't include it (really sad, it's a cool card IRL).

So this is what I'd do: keep all copies exactly as in the Draft format, except
- cards that have 4x copies in Shadow Packs are now reduced to 3x, and
- each companion has max 2x copies.

[-Enola-]

Anyway, I don't have any problem with reducing all cards in Shadow Packs to max 3 copies. But those that have 2 copies shouldn't get almost erased by having merely 1... Think about the Ring of Thrór (The Clouds Burst will be included at some moment): 1 copy only will destroy any reliable impact. Even worse in big decks...

It will not be a problem at all for Ring of Thror with 3 Danger Wrapped in Shadows... The cards are made to work with few copies.

Is the same that happens with Forces of Mordor in FOTR block (R-listed): since you cannot build the deck around that card, and since it's too unlikely to have it in the right moment, players simply don't include it (really sad, it's a cool card IRL).

So this is what I'd do: keep all copies exactly as in the Draft format, except
- cards that have 4x copies in Shadow Packs are now reduced to 3x, and
- each companion has max 2x copies.

I don't think 2 copies for each companion will solve any problem. Once you get 6 companions, you don't play another ones (Orkish Marauder). You easily have 6 companions at site 4.

[Phallen Cassidy]

Sure, but less control is a way to balance a format: like a X-list or a R-list.

LotR's X-/R-lists are one thing, but now there are no copies of 4x anything - every single card in your game is restricted in some way. Of course, this is done to mimic the balance of your draft game. I understand that. But as a constructed player, I know I'll feel "tied up," as Durin's Heir says. I suppose that the cards are limited in, say, a Sealed league, and I can try to consider The Hobbit to be like that.

On a related note, right now it'll be very hard for players to know when they've got an illegal number of a card, since gemp's constructed builder is set to show 1 copy of each site, 1 of each ring, and 4 copies of everything else in the deck builder - the (now outdated) list of legal quantities of cards Enola has posted will have to be checked often. I can try to put in an exception for Hobbit cards, but I don't know how long it'll take me or when MarcinS will approve the changes to the server. This is not urgent, but would certainly make it easier on players.

Anyway, I don't have any problem with reducing all cards in Shadow Packs to max 3 copies. But those that have 2 copies shouldn't get almost erased by having merely 1... Think about the Ring of Thrór (The Clouds Burst will be included at some moment): 1 copy only will destroy any reliable impact. Even worse in big decks...

Is the same that happens with Forces of Mordor in FOTR block (R-listed): since you cannot build the deck around that card, and since it's too unlikely to have it in the right moment, players simply don't include it (really sad, it's a cool card IRL).

So this is what I'd do: keep all copies exactly as in the Draft format, except
- cards that have 4x copies in Shadow Packs are now reduced to 3x, and
- each companion has max 2x copies.

As an aside, Forces of Mordor sounds plenty overpowered to me - free twilight is not something that should be gained so lightly, especially during the Shadow phase. I don't play Fellowship Block much, but it seems has two big needs: vitality and twilight. If the card had required you to exert X minions to add X twilight, I'd think it was well-made and situational. I don't think any card which is an auto-include in every deck is a well-made card But I am not speaking from much experience.

Currently, I'm working off of Enola's requirements and reducing the quantity of each card by one. You gents can continue to duke it out and let me know if anything needs to be changed again - it's really not much trouble.

[-Enola-]

Currently, I'm working off of Enola's requirements and reducing the quantity of each card by one. You gents can continue to duke it out and let me know if anything needs to be changed again - it's really not much trouble.

Ok. It seems to be the easier way to balance the constructed formats. I will update this topic:

http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,10735.0.html

In Format Rules, you can add this link?

I'm working on the way to make a Sealed League. There will be no more limitation on cards: each player will have the same main deck (with a random Gandalf and a random Bilbo) and I'm thinking on how the boosters have to be randomly made.

[Phallen Cassidy]

http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,10735.0.html

In Format Rules, you can add this link?

Sure, easy fix. I'll go ahead and remove the R-list for The Hobbit as well, to keep things neater.

[Phallen Cassidy]

On second thought, would you prefer I have the card limits for The Hobbit in the format tab as well as a link to that post? That way, there's something set in stone on gemp (which should, I'm hoping, include the card images as the LotR formats do), while still a reference to the forum in case the list gets outdated an needs updating. Thoughts?

[-Enola-]

Only the link now, I don't know if there will be many updates of this list after the first tests. We will try to minimize your work .

[Phallen Cassidy]

Don't worry so much about the work I'll have to do. I enjoy programming, and while Java may not be my cup of tea, I'm at least learning a lot! I just realized that the legal quantities will have to be updated on gemp and a pull request submitted in order to be changed, so I think the easiest thing to do is include both - a list of what's legal on gemp and a list of what quantities we want on gemp. Disobedient players will put as many cards as they can, so it doesn't matter our desired quantities as long as gemp allows something else, but the link to the forum will allow people who really want to test the balance a way to do so. Sound alright, or do you still much prefer only the forum link?

[-Enola-]

Don't worry so much about the work I'll have to do. I enjoy programming, and while Java may not be my cup of tea, I'm at least learning a lot! I just realized that the legal quantities will have to be updated on gemp and a pull request submitted in order to be changed, so I think the easiest thing to do is include both - a list of what's legal on gemp and a list of what quantities we want on gemp. Disobedient players will put as many cards as they can, so it doesn't matter our desired quantities as long as gemp allows something else, but the link to the forum will allow people who really want to test the balance a way to do so. Sound alright, or do you still much prefer only the forum link?

Then, the list also on gemp seems great .

[Durin's Heir]

It will not be a problem at all for Ring of Thror with 3 Danger Wrapped in Shadows... The cards are made to work with few copies.

My mistake! I kept in mind the old Danger Wrapped in Shadows, the one that takes only 1 card and only from discard.

But what about Hidden Attack? 1 single copy? It won't do much harm, and will rarely be there when circumstances are ideal. AND is useless at site 9, so you must have it in hand at site 8 at most or will be useless.
The same with the Shadow Arkenstone, 1 copy only that can't be fetched by other cards.

Gollum will be hurted severely by having only 2 copies. Big decks will get the worst damage from this situation (keep that in mind, being forced to build small decks hurts deckbuilding). So I'd try to not limit too much cards as the first option, leaving it instead as the last resource.

I don't think 2 copies for each companion will solve any problem. Once you get 6 companions, you don't play another ones (Orkish Marauder). You easily have 6 companions at site 4.

Hmmm, that's probably true. But I still prefer adding cards than removing. Perhaps adding 1 or 2 FP cards from The Clouds Burst (to the Additional Valid list), to counter that Spiders combo:

- The Ring of Thrór can help Dwalin (def+3) or Kili (3 direct wounds) to absorb a swarm. Also, can return Battle of Azanulbizar.
- Saruman, to make Gandy defender +1 (reliable, as that effect stays with him on the board).
- Bäin, to make Bard fight.
- Former Herald, to make Elrond or Radagast fight.

I like those 2 in bold. Being out of their natural contexts, their power will be under control. The Ring of Thrór won't give strength so easily, as lacks the self-discardable possessions of Thráin's pack (and Du Bekâr! for quick discard at the right moment).
Saruman provides a mild strength support, which can be helpful to balance constructed Beatdown too (Azog + Scimitar + Threatening Warg!). Besides, the main fighting tools of the White Council pack are others (Galadriel, Gathering and Nenya), Saruman works not to kill but to make Gandalf fight more minions and/or have better survival.


Then, my proposal removes a point and adds another:
- keep all copies exactly as in the Draft format, except
- cards that have 4x copies in Shadow Packs are now reduced to 3x, and
- each companion has max 2x copies.
- add 1 or 2 FP cards from another format, specialized in countering Swarms (Saruman and the Ring would be my choice).


For wider deckbuilding possibilities!

[-Enola-]

Hidden Attack is not a main card of this Shadow, it's a strong card, that's why it's only in 2 copies in the draft.

It will be easier with -1 copy for each card rather than discussing if we include some cards.

We will test first and discuss after .

[Durin's Heir]

We will test first and discuss after .

Ok, that's smart way to go. Agree, by now.

But I think that at some point people will want to loose all strings, and have 3x or 4x of all cards in the specific format, for a complete constructed experience, which is what will be missing here. This reduction looks like an emulation of a Draft experience, instead of a balanced form of a free constructed format (by means of X, R and Additional Valid lists).

Later, some people will even demand an "anything goes" Hobbit format, with 4x copies of all cards from all formats. They'll want to pair Radagast with the White Council, or Great Goblin's Power + Scimitar with Azog's Army. Or Demolition Troll + the new Trolls we are designing by now, with the 3 Stone Trolls. The game will be so good that many folks will simply crave for those combos!

[-Enola-]

Sure, but I don't like to play Open . I prefer balanced formats. The more important thing is to avoid any NPE: 4 Goblin Runner+4 Old Tomnoddy+2 Spider Nest could be a strong NPE, regardless of the number of available companions.

[Durin's Heir]

Sure, but I don't like to play Open . I prefer balanced formats.

There's other formats that are close to open in availability of combos, but much more balanced (by means of lists): Austrian and French.

The more important thing is to avoid any NPE: 4 Goblin Runner+4 Old Tomnoddy+2 Spider Nest could be a strong NPE, regardless of the number of available companions.

OK, adding more copies of companions was a bad idea.

But adding more defenders (Bäin for Bard) or defender bonuses (Saruman for Gandalf, or Ring of Thrór to aid Dwalin) should help to counter that fragile combo.

The combo relies on 1 Spider condition, and is helped by any card in play to spot (preferably a condition), so can be dismantled by any pre-skirmish form of wounding (Azanulbizar, Kili, Gandalf the Grey + His Wrath Was Redoubled / He Gives Me Courage), returning to hand (Tauriel), or condition discard (Ancestral Knowledge). It's powerful, but far from impossible to counter! (then allowing more copies of those events / allies can be better than allowing less copies of those Shadow cards; Tauriel with only 1 copy won't heal)

All those options are part of the current "A Short Rest" format, but other cards from other formats can help:
- Bäin (+ Bard)
- Percy + [Dale] weapons
- Black Arrow

- Saruman
- Former Herald (better with Gandalf the Grey!)
- Gathering of the 3 Rings (ditto with the Grey)
- Galadriel (to survive overwhelms)
- Nenya

- Roäc + a ally

- Du Bekâr! (to discard Crazy Cob)
- Ring of Thrór, borne by Kili or Dwalin
- Ring of Thrór, to play Ancestral Knowledge or Battle of Azanulbizar once again!

- whatever cool FP thing we create in this new Extension!

So a small list with Additional material can very well counter that combo, if playtests show that the cards naturally available in A Short Rest aren't enough...

[-Enola-]

Azog's swarm and Goblin swarm will be far too strong together.

Yes, we can make a X-list or a R-list for this new format. But it could be done only after the first tests in "Hobbit: A Short Rest" and "Hobbit: The Clouds Burst".