Hobbit Draft's Spider Culture

[-Enola-]

Don't worry so much about the work I'll have to do. I enjoy programming, and while Java may not be my cup of tea, I'm at least learning a lot! I just realized that the legal quantities will have to be updated on gemp and a pull request submitted in order to be changed, so I think the easiest thing to do is include both - a list of what's legal on gemp and a list of what quantities we want on gemp. Disobedient players will put as many cards as they can, so it doesn't matter our desired quantities as long as gemp allows something else, but the link to the forum will allow people who really want to test the balance a way to do so. Sound alright, or do you still much prefer only the forum link?

Then, the list also on gemp seems great .

[Durin's Heir]

It will not be a problem at all for Ring of Thror with 3 Danger Wrapped in Shadows... The cards are made to work with few copies.

My mistake! I kept in mind the old Danger Wrapped in Shadows, the one that takes only 1 card and only from discard.

But what about Hidden Attack? 1 single copy? It won't do much harm, and will rarely be there when circumstances are ideal. AND is useless at site 9, so you must have it in hand at site 8 at most or will be useless.
The same with the Shadow Arkenstone, 1 copy only that can't be fetched by other cards.

Gollum will be hurted severely by having only 2 copies. Big decks will get the worst damage from this situation (keep that in mind, being forced to build small decks hurts deckbuilding). So I'd try to not limit too much cards as the first option, leaving it instead as the last resource.

I don't think 2 copies for each companion will solve any problem. Once you get 6 companions, you don't play another ones (Orkish Marauder). You easily have 6 companions at site 4.

Hmmm, that's probably true. But I still prefer adding cards than removing. Perhaps adding 1 or 2 FP cards from The Clouds Burst (to the Additional Valid list), to counter that Spiders combo:

- The Ring of Thrór can help Dwalin (def+3) or Kili (3 direct wounds) to absorb a swarm. Also, can return Battle of Azanulbizar.
- Saruman, to make Gandy defender +1 (reliable, as that effect stays with him on the board).
- Bäin, to make Bard fight.
- Former Herald, to make Elrond or Radagast fight.

I like those 2 in bold. Being out of their natural contexts, their power will be under control. The Ring of Thrór won't give strength so easily, as lacks the self-discardable possessions of Thráin's pack (and Du Bekâr! for quick discard at the right moment).
Saruman provides a mild strength support, which can be helpful to balance constructed Beatdown too (Azog + Scimitar + Threatening Warg!). Besides, the main fighting tools of the White Council pack are others (Galadriel, Gathering and Nenya), Saruman works not to kill but to make Gandalf fight more minions and/or have better survival.


Then, my proposal removes a point and adds another:
- keep all copies exactly as in the Draft format, except
- cards that have 4x copies in Shadow Packs are now reduced to 3x, and
- each companion has max 2x copies.
- add 1 or 2 FP cards from another format, specialized in countering Swarms (Saruman and the Ring would be my choice).


For wider deckbuilding possibilities!

[-Enola-]

Hidden Attack is not a main card of this Shadow, it's a strong card, that's why it's only in 2 copies in the draft.

It will be easier with -1 copy for each card rather than discussing if we include some cards.

We will test first and discuss after .

[Durin's Heir]

We will test first and discuss after .

Ok, that's smart way to go. Agree, by now.

But I think that at some point people will want to loose all strings, and have 3x or 4x of all cards in the specific format, for a complete constructed experience, which is what will be missing here. This reduction looks like an emulation of a Draft experience, instead of a balanced form of a free constructed format (by means of X, R and Additional Valid lists).

Later, some people will even demand an "anything goes" Hobbit format, with 4x copies of all cards from all formats. They'll want to pair Radagast with the White Council, or Great Goblin's Power + Scimitar with Azog's Army. Or Demolition Troll + the new Trolls we are designing by now, with the 3 Stone Trolls. The game will be so good that many folks will simply crave for those combos!

[-Enola-]

Sure, but I don't like to play Open . I prefer balanced formats. The more important thing is to avoid any NPE: 4 Goblin Runner+4 Old Tomnoddy+2 Spider Nest could be a strong NPE, regardless of the number of available companions.

[Durin's Heir]

Sure, but I don't like to play Open . I prefer balanced formats.

There's other formats that are close to open in availability of combos, but much more balanced (by means of lists): Austrian and French.

The more important thing is to avoid any NPE: 4 Goblin Runner+4 Old Tomnoddy+2 Spider Nest could be a strong NPE, regardless of the number of available companions.

OK, adding more copies of companions was a bad idea.

But adding more defenders (Bäin for Bard) or defender bonuses (Saruman for Gandalf, or Ring of Thrór to aid Dwalin) should help to counter that fragile combo.

The combo relies on 1 Spider condition, and is helped by any card in play to spot (preferably a condition), so can be dismantled by any pre-skirmish form of wounding (Azanulbizar, Kili, Gandalf the Grey + His Wrath Was Redoubled / He Gives Me Courage), returning to hand (Tauriel), or condition discard (Ancestral Knowledge). It's powerful, but far from impossible to counter! (then allowing more copies of those events / allies can be better than allowing less copies of those Shadow cards; Tauriel with only 1 copy won't heal)

All those options are part of the current "A Short Rest" format, but other cards from other formats can help:
- Bäin (+ Bard)
- Percy + [Dale] weapons
- Black Arrow

- Saruman
- Former Herald (better with Gandalf the Grey!)
- Gathering of the 3 Rings (ditto with the Grey)
- Galadriel (to survive overwhelms)
- Nenya

- Roäc + a ally

- Du Bekâr! (to discard Crazy Cob)
- Ring of Thrór, borne by Kili or Dwalin
- Ring of Thrór, to play Ancestral Knowledge or Battle of Azanulbizar once again!

- whatever cool FP thing we create in this new Extension!

So a small list with Additional material can very well counter that combo, if playtests show that the cards naturally available in A Short Rest aren't enough...

[-Enola-]

Azog's swarm and Goblin swarm will be far too strong together.

Yes, we can make a X-list or a R-list for this new format. But it could be done only after the first tests in "Hobbit: A Short Rest" and "Hobbit: The Clouds Burst".