LotR TCG Wiki → Card Sets:  All 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 → Forums:  TLHH CC

Author Topic: Swept Away and being Killed  (Read 3538 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

August 26, 2017, 01:54:36 AM
Read 3538 times

Larry5000

  • ***
  • Information Offline
  • Troll
  • Posts: 178
Swept Away and being Killed
« on: August 26, 2017, 01:54:36 AM »
OK I have read the rules especially on topics like killed, exhausted and wound. I think I know the answer to this but if a Gondor Wraith is Exhausted, and based on Swept Away's game text: While you have initiative, exhausted [Gondor] Wraiths cannot take wounds, does that prevent him from being killed and out of the game?

Based on the rules text saying: if a card prevents wounds, wounds may still be
assigned to that character. And then giving the example of Faramir, Wizard's Pupil which says:
"Skirmish: Exert Gandalf to prevent all wounds to Faramir." This prevents wounds as they are assigned to Faramir, not the assignments themselves.

So if they lose a skirmish they would still be assigned a wound which would caused them to died even tho they do not actually take the wound due to Swept Away's game text. Is that correct?

I know in some ways the wraiths are sort of hard to beat when they are exhausted but because I have not played them except one time really, (and that was a long time ago and did not turn out well) I have not gotten to understand their true strengths if in fact they have better advantages over other normally strong companions.

I have started to read a few articles on people playing Gondor Wraiths but still have not gotten a clear cut answer to things yet.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 01:56:07 AM by Larry5000 »

August 26, 2017, 02:19:05 AM
Reply #1

Enabran

  • **
  • Information Offline
  • Scout
  • Posts: 77
Re: Swept Away and being Killed
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2017, 02:19:05 AM »
Swept away says nothing from a prevention, so do not interpret things on cards when they are not written on them.

Swept away says " cannot take wounds"

If your wraith loses his skirmish the cannot triggers and he simply gets no wound token (as long as you meet all conditions for Swept away like you have initiative)

If your opponent has archers you cannot assign the wounds to your exhausted Wraiths when you have initiative and Swept away in play.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 03:29:15 AM by Enabran »

August 26, 2017, 02:48:23 AM
Reply #2

Larry5000

  • ***
  • Information Offline
  • Troll
  • Posts: 178
Re: Swept Away and being Killed
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2017, 02:48:23 AM »
OK got wrapped up with the rules's example of Faramir so yea you are correct with the word prevention, and correct on "Cannot" The more I think about it the more I remember somebody saying once that even tho a card does not let you take wounds if you are still overwhelmed you can still die. So is that my true answer? If an Exhausted Gondor Wraith has a strength 10 and a minion wins a skirmish with a strength of 15 the Wraith does not take the wound and thus does not die. But if that minion is a strength of 20 and the wraith is only 10 he would in fact be overwhelmed and leave play regardless?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 02:57:04 AM by Larry5000 »

August 26, 2017, 02:59:12 AM
Reply #3

Enabran

  • **
  • Information Offline
  • Scout
  • Posts: 77
Re: Swept Away and being Killed
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2017, 02:59:12 AM »
correct :-)

But you can use Elessar's Edict to discard him instead of placing him in the deadpile. Presupposed you can pay the cost of exerting another Gondor Wraith.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 03:10:58 AM by Enabran »

August 26, 2017, 03:05:28 AM
Reply #4

Larry5000

  • ***
  • Information Offline
  • Troll
  • Posts: 178
Re: Swept Away and being Killed
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2017, 03:05:28 AM »
Cool, got something right for a change. :-)

August 26, 2017, 03:32:52 AM
Reply #5

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 863
  • Alex Jones was right
Re: Swept Away and being Killed
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2017, 03:32:52 AM »
Elessar's Edict works by either exhausting a [Gondor] Wraith, or spotting an exhausted [Gondor] Wraith (the text displayed in the image is wrong, see the Wiki page for the clarification), so as far as you have another Wraith in play it'll be always playable. That event is also a good backup to have in case your copies of Swept Away get discarded.
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”  - Malcolm X

August 26, 2017, 03:36:52 AM
Reply #6

Enabran

  • **
  • Information Offline
  • Scout
  • Posts: 77
Re: Swept Away and being Killed
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2017, 03:36:52 AM »
hmm

ok.

I could mak a new image for this card but who is able to upload it?

August 26, 2017, 04:19:58 AM
Reply #7

Dictionary

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Posts: 526
  • Duplicitous Deckbuilder
Re: Swept Away and being Killed
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2017, 04:19:58 AM »
There's no need, as I understand it the wiki's images should match the card's physical print, which Edict does. Clarifications are often more about explaining in extra detail (Or explaining Decipher's intent) rather than changing mechanics - You can exhaust a character who is already exhausted, so the clarification is just reminding people that if they already have an exhausted wraith, they needn't exhaust another one.

Cards which do not match their physical copy are Worn Battleaxe, Grieving the Fallen and I recently brought up Doors of Durin as a candidate as well. Those could be changed, I don't really get why they're wrong in the first place.
Visit LOTR TCG wiki for strategy articles and extra card details, contributed by various community members. All set 1 cards finished.

August 26, 2017, 04:51:33 AM
Reply #8

Larry5000

  • ***
  • Information Offline
  • Troll
  • Posts: 178
Re: Swept Away and being Killed
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2017, 04:51:33 AM »
OK thanks guys.

August 26, 2017, 05:11:19 AM
Reply #9

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 863
  • Alex Jones was right
Re: Swept Away and being Killed
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2017, 05:11:19 AM »
@Dictionary: Actually, the corrected card acts differently than the original. Its effect is "...exhaust another [Gondor] Wraith... to prevent that", while the original version says "...exhaust another [Gondor] Wraith instead", and as such different rules should create different results in some very specific scenarios.

For instance, at Stewards Tomb you can still "do something" instead of wounding (like The One Ring adding burdens) but cannot "prevent" a wound (ergo, a death by wounds), so only the corrected text of Elessar's Edict shouldn't save an exhausted [Gondor] Wraith from being killed by a wound. While the original would be able to discard the Wraith "instead" (in the hypothetical case that it still applied).

(Since when someone gets overwhelmed "that character does not take any more wounds — he simply dies", both versions would be able of discarding an overwhelmed Wraith at Stewards Tomb!)


Gemp shows only the original image (not red-taped). It says it's a clarification, but is actually both a clarification (of the exhaustion rule) and an erratum. Just that Decipher apparently never realized it.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 05:31:58 AM by Durin's Heir »
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”  - Malcolm X

August 26, 2017, 08:21:34 AM
Reply #10

Dictionary

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Posts: 526
  • Duplicitous Deckbuilder
Re: Swept Away and being Killed
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2017, 08:21:34 AM »
@Dictionary: Actually, the corrected card acts differently than the original. Its effect is "...exhaust another [Gondor] Wraith... to prevent that", while the original version says "...exhaust another [Gondor] Wraith instead", and as such different rules should create different results in some very specific scenarios.
That's true, hadn't noticed that change in wording.

Gemp shows only the original image (not red-taped). It says it's a clarification, but is actually both a clarification (of the exhaustion rule) and an erratum. Just that Decipher apparently never realized it.
Decipher blurred the lines a lot between clarifications and errata though. Desert Sneak, for instance, is apparently a clarification, despite the fundamental changing in the way his text works.
Visit LOTR TCG wiki for strategy articles and extra card details, contributed by various community members. All set 1 cards finished.

August 26, 2017, 09:57:46 AM
Reply #11

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 863
  • Alex Jones was right
Re: Swept Away and being Killed
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2017, 09:57:46 AM »
We discussed that change of wording a good time ago. Time flies! You're right, Desert Sneak's "clarification" is too a slight but sharp change in mechanics (which affects important timing).

But to unexperienced players, I believe the difference between the original and corrected versions is much harder to imagine in the case of Elessar's Edict than in Desert Sneak's, so I see a much heavier need of putting some red tape on the [Gondor] event ("hey, wait... you can exhaust a guy that's already exhausted? Really? That's odd... but cool!"). Or to both, I don't see any restriction to choose one or the other. The important matter is that their mechanics were changed, and that delta produces interpretation problems for less knowledgeable players.


The problem with Grieving the Fallen is that they forgot to mention "(except the Ring-bearer)" after "Bearer must be a companion". I don't know about the rest.
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”  - Malcolm X

August 26, 2017, 11:20:01 AM
Reply #12

Dictionary

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Posts: 526
  • Duplicitous Deckbuilder
Re: Swept Away and being Killed
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2017, 11:20:01 AM »
We discussed that change of wording a good time ago. Time flies! You're right, Desert Sneak's "clarification" is too a slight but sharp change in mechanics (which affects important timing).
Oh wow, it's eerie how I'm just repeating something I said nearly a year ago. Serves as a reminder that everything said on here sticks around, unlike the Gemp lobby :-S

But to unexperienced players, I believe the difference between the original and corrected versions is much harder to imagine in the case of Elessar's Edict than in Desert Sneak's, so I see a much heavier need of putting some red tape on the [Gondor] event ("hey, wait... you can exhaust a guy that's already exhausted? Really? That's odd... but cool!"). Or to both, I don't see any restriction to choose one or the other. The important matter is that their mechanics were changed, and that delta produces interpretation problems for less knowledgeable players.
Yeah, I know MarcinS primarily used red tape for cards with errata, but some cards like that one create an awful lot of confusion for newer players. Plus, Axe Strike is red taped, and that's a clarification.

The problem with Grieving the Fallen is that they forgot to mention "(except the Ring-bearer)" after "Bearer must be a companion". I don't know about the rest.
Worn Battleaxe doesn't specify bearer online, but I think all the physical copies do. I brought up Doors of Durin a week or so ago here:

http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,11235.0.html
Visit LOTR TCG wiki for strategy articles and extra card details, contributed by various community members. All set 1 cards finished.