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Author Topic: Northern Ithilien/Gollum/Fat One Wants It/Watcher in the Water Burden Combo  (Read 5521 times)

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November 04, 2017, 07:19:42 PM
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sgtdraino

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This gimmick has been getting some discussion on gemp lately, as to whether or not it is actually legal. For those who don't know, the idea is to play and discard Gollum over and over again at Northern Ithilien with Watcher in play, in order to corrupt the opponent in one turn. There is some question as to whether or not Northern Ithilien should add burdens if Gollum is being discarded as soon as he enters play, and/or if Fat One Wants It should add threats, for the same reason. Thoughts? Relevant text:

Northern Ithilien:
-Shadow: Remove 2 threats and play Gollum from your discard pile to add 2 burdens.

Fat One Wants It:
-Each time Gollum or Smeagol is played, add a threat.

Watcher in the Water:
-While you can spot Watcher in the Water, discard all other minions (except tentacles).

Relevant Rules:

Playing a Card (8/13/2007 CRD)
Quote
Following is a detailed procedure for playing a
non-site card. This was prompted by questions
about playing events that require initiative, but
the procedure applies to other cards as well. We
refer to the card you are playing as "The Card."

1. Reveal The Card from your hand, and it enters
the void (not in your hand, not in your discard
pile, not in play). You cannot count The Card for
initiative. You cannot discard The Card to pay
a cost. Effects that respond to The Card leaving
your hand, like cards that trigger when you lose
initiative, happen later (see below). Each player
may examine the card at this point.

2. Meet requirements to play The Card. If you
are the Free Peoples player and initiative is a
requirement for playing The Card, you must have
four cards in your hand not counting The Card.
Checking to see that all costs can be paid is a
requirement of playing a card. If you cannot meet
all requirements, The Card returns to your hand.
If the card returns to hand, then you do not lose
initiative and skip the remaining steps.

3. Pay costs to play The Card. This includes both
twilight costs and other costs included in game
text. If adding or removing Twilight tokens to the
pool is part of the cost, it is done first. If the card
references itself by name in its game text, it may
modify its own cost. If discarding cards from your
hand is a cost, then you cannot discard The Card.
It is possible for another card to interrupt the
paying of costs so that you cannot finish paying
them. If paying costs is interrupted in such a way
that you cannot finish paying them all, The Card
is placed in your discard pile and any costs already
paid remain paid. Do not pay any further costs
for that card.

4. If The Card is not an event, place it in the
appropriate place. If the card you are playing is
a Character, Possession, Artifact, or Condition,
place it on the playing surface. The Card is now
in play.

5. Respond to the playing of The Card (and
to losing initiative if necessary). Responses or
triggered actions that respond to the playing of
The Card happen now. If The Card has game
text on it that triggers "When you play..." The
Card, it happens now. Other cards may respond
to the card being played as well. These are
handled in the manner described under actions
and action procedure. If The Card was a Free
People's card and it leaving your hand causes you
to lose initiative, each player may respond to you
losing initiative now.

6. Perform effects of The Card. This includes
choosing cards to be affected, if necessary. If
initiative is a requirement for an effect, you
cannot count The Card. If an effect takes a card
into your hand from your discard pile, The Card
is not there yet.

7. The card is played. Events go to the discard
pile (or where they are instructed to go if the card
specifies) and other cards are in play.

Discard (Comprehensive Rules 3.0)
Quote
If a card is discarded when it comes into play,
ignore any effects triggered when it comes into
play. This includes effects from a minion's
own game text (such as "When you play this
minion...") and effects from other cards in play
(such as "Each time you play...").
If Watcher in the Water is in play ("While you
can spot Watcher in the Water, discard all other
minions...") and you play Goblin Runner ("When
you play this minion, you may add ¤."), ¤ is not
added.

Relevant Discussion:

Quote
[Nov 2 10:55:49] Merrick_H: Decipher specifically ruled at the time the combo was discovered that it was not legal since gollum was discarded before he could add the burdens. But when they added the "Playing A Card" rules clarification, they changed the order of things so that the combination now works.

Quote
[Nov 2 21:44:09] Merrick_H: Phallen is correct. The rule about Watcher, Gollum and Northern Ithilein was issued on February 3, 2004.
[Nov 2 21:44:43] Merrick_H: The Playing a Card procedure was added sometime between January and August, 2005
[Nov 2 21:50:41] Merrick_H: Since playing Gollum is a cost for adding the two burdens, since gollum comes into play and is immediately discarded, the site gets to add the burdens.
[Nov 2 21:51:14] Merrick_H: The source of the burdens is the site, not gollum, so per the "playing a card rules" the action completes.
[Nov 2 22:05:10] DurinsHeir: Then the only thing that's bugged is Fat One Wants It. If Gollum is discarded immediatly, FOWI shouldn't add the threat.
[Nov 2 22:09:39] DurinsHeir: Captured by the Ring is different to FOWI, worded like Northern Ithilien.

Quote
[Nov 3 10:45:19] bibfortuna: My conclusion is, Northern Ithilien will add burdens each time you play Gollum, but Fat One Wants It should NOT add any threats. The only way to get new threats in that kind of deck is to use Captured by the Ring

For my own part, I think it probably isn't legal. For Northern Ithilien to add burdens, a cost must be paid. Part of that cost is to "play Gollum." In the procedure for "Playing a Card," while the card is "in play" as of Step 4, the card is not actually considered to be "played" until Step 7 ("The card is played."). Since Watcher would trigger in Step 5 and discard Gollum, in my opinion Gollum never completely gets "played," and thus the cost of Northern Ithilien is not satisfied.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 02:37:21 PM by Zurcamos »
"I would have followed you, my brother... my captain... my king." - Boromir

November 05, 2017, 12:35:29 PM
Reply #1

Chrispy77

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I think what muddies all of this is the phrasing "discard any effects triggered when it comes into play"- do costs count as an effect triggered? Because if Northern Ithilien's ability is already progressing when Gollum is/isn't played, and it responds to the stage 5 step of "Respond to the playing of the card". Even though the card never hits step 7- responding to the playing of the card could be considered step 5.

Either way though, fat one wants it shouldn't work. Northern Ithilien is just trickier since it plays another card other than itself.

November 05, 2017, 09:03:56 PM
Reply #2

bibfortuna25

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Yeah, I think we're all in agreement that Fat One Wants It shouldn't add any threats. Northern Ithilien is a trickier situation, since this portion of the rules doesn't mention effects from phase actions, only those from triggered actions.

However, there is the ruling on Treebeard, Earthborn and Pippin, Just a Nuisance. If Treebeard stacks Pippin as a response to Pippin's action, he doesn't remove the Uruk-hai from the skirmish. Treebeard interrupts the cost of Pippin's action, so the cost wasn't paid.

Going by this, I think that Northern Ithilien shouldn't work either.
All cards do what they say, no more, no less.

November 05, 2017, 09:23:30 PM
Reply #3

Chrispy77

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I'm not sure this would make any difference, but the card that is using an ability and also leaving play is Pippen. Northern Ithilien never leaves play, the other card involved does.

November 06, 2017, 06:35:13 AM
Reply #4

bibfortuna25

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I don't think we covered this, but should Captured by the Ring add a threat if the Watcher is out? Same goes for So Polite adding twilight. The rules mention effects from cards in play, but not events.
All cards do what they say, no more, no less.

November 06, 2017, 08:25:04 AM
Reply #5

Deckhunter

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Captured should work since the threat added is a cost of the event and not an effect. Just like playing led astray when you can't replace one of your sites, it still adds the twilight.

November 07, 2017, 04:50:46 AM
Reply #6

sgtdraino

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I still say, per the procedure for "playing a card," Gollum never gets completely played, and thus the costs are never fulfilled. The rules clearly denote that there is a difference between a card being "in play" (step 4) and "played" (step 7). Gollum gets discarded by the Watcher in Step 5 before it is "played" in Step 7, ergo the cost of Northern Ithilien is not paid, ergo burdens shouldn't be added.

ETA - It sounds like Bib and I are on the same page.

In all the examples above, I don't think any of the cards should add anything, because they all involve "playing Gollum," and Gollum is being instantly discarded in Step 5 before he fully gets "played" in Step 7.

I think the key here is acknowledging that there is a difference between "in play" and "played." Obviously Gollum has to be "in play" to be affected by Watcher, since cards that are out of play are generally not affected by anything. But the card is not actually "played" until Step 7, so other cards that reference "played" shouldn't key off until that point.

ETA - That also explains how Shadowplay and Unheeded can get rid of Corsair Marauder before his text can get rid of a possession. He gets discarded in Step 5 before he is fully "played" in step 7, which would trigger his text.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 06:35:58 AM by sgtdraino »
"I would have followed you, my brother... my captain... my king." - Boromir