New Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves for the Hobbit Draft Game

[-Enola-]

The current version of Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves is unused on gemp and seems to be the weakest Gandalf among the 4 Gandalf.




I'll put here all the ideas for a new Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves.


New ability/drawing cards

Each time a Dwarf heals, you may draw a card. (2 lines, but 1 line without "you may")

Each time a Dwarf heals, you may wound a minion. (2 lines, but 1 line without "you may")

Each time you play a event, you may add a doubt to draw 2 cards. (2 lines)

Each time you play a event, you may add a doubt to take a skirmish event (or an artifact) from your discard pile into hand. (3 lines)

While Gandalf is in your discard pile, each Dwarf companion is strength +1. (2 lines)

Fellowship: Remove from the game 2 events in your discard pile to draw 3 cards. (2 lines)

Fellowship: Discard a event from hand to draw 2 cards (or 2 cards to play an artifact from your discard pile). (3 lines)

Maneuver: Discard 2 followers and play Gandalf from your discard pile to make each companion strength + 2 until the end of the turn. (4 lines)

Skirmish: Play a skirmish event to draw 2 cards. (2 lines)

Regroup: Discard a event from hand to heal a character and draw a card. (2 lines)

Response: If a companion is about to take a wound, exert Gandalf to prevent it. (2 lines)



Dwarf tutor

Each Dwarf companion is twilight cost -1. (1 line)

At the start of each of your turns, you may exert Gandalf to play a Dwarf from your draw deck. (3 lines)

Fellowship: Exert Gandalf to play a Dwarf from your draw deck (limit 1). (2 lines)

Fellowship: Kill a Dwarf companion to play a Dwarf companion and an artifact from your draw deck or discard pile. (3 lines)



Play Gandalf/Glamdring/Narya from discard pile

If there are 4 or more cards in your discard pile, Gandalf cannot be discarded.

Fellowship: Kill a Dwarf companion to play Gandalf from your discard pile. (2 lines)

Fellowship: Add 3 doubts to play Gandalf from your discard pile. (2 lines)

Fellowship: Play Gandalf from your discard pile. (2 lines)

Fellowship: Exert Gandalf and a Dwarf companion to play an artifact from your draw deck or discard pile. (3 lines)

Fellowship or Regroup: Discard 2 cards from hand to take a card from your discard pile into hand. (3 lines)

Fellowship: Add to play a artifact from your draw deck or discard pile. (2 lines)

Maneuver: Discard a follower and exert a companion to play Gandalf (or an artifact) from your discard pile. (3 lines)

Maneuver: Discard 2 cards from hand to play Gandalf from your discard pile (2 lines)

Maneuver: Play Gandalf from your discard pile to discard a minion (except Smaug). (2 lines)



Objectives

You can change the twilight cost of Gandalf. Then, build a Gandalf with max 5 lines who use :
- Lore of Imladris (not enough played) or
- Noble Intentions (not enough played) or
- events (to compete with Gandalf The Grey on the events during a draft).

[Durin's Heir]

Gandalf has 2 important things to consider when designing a new version:

1.- His main role is to assemble the Felowship. That means he must either play Dwarf companions from deck (usually costing ), or allow a large starting fellowship (usually costing or , and reducing cost to others) AND also cycle cards (since playing directly from deck won't be possible, must hasten the playing from random drawing). If you want a functional Gandalf, he must do one OR the other; otherwise will mean an immediate failure.

2.- Discarding Gandalf means losing any card he bears. Artifacts most of the times. Losing Glamdring is a great cost, that most players don't want to pay (so they play LotC or Friend of Thorin, which can prevent his discarding) or want to reverse as soon as possible (so they play The Grey to replay it). If he can't recover Glamdring (or prevent its discarding), any new version simply won't be appealing to players.

The original Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves is very good tutoring Dwarf companions, that's undeniable. But he cannot prevent his own discarding (by a built-in skill) nor recover Glamdring / Wizard Staff, so that's the part that makes him weaker and of little appeal. The Maneuver self-replaying skill is very good to clear all the wounds he'll be gathering due to his Dwarf tutoring (and facing minions), but the steep cost of discarding 2 followers makes it somewhat repulsive and weaker.


With that in mind, here's an enhanced version of the original one:

•Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves
Companion • Wizard
Strength 7  Vitality 4
Wise.
At the start of your turn, you may exert Gandalf to play a companion or artifact from your draw deck or discard pile.
Maneuver: Discard a Dwarf follower to play Gandalf from your discard pile.
"You do know my name... I am Gandalf."

The self-replaying Maneuver skill was reduced to discarding only 1 follower.

The fetching part was increased from companions to also artifacts, and also from discard (to recover Glamdring). Please note that it will hardly change anything from the original before site 5 or 6: in the early game playing companions is vital (since he starts with Bilbo only), but only at the late Region 2 and onwards (re)playing artifacts becomes more important (unless your Company is severely decimated).

By using site 5's discarding to his own favor, he incentivizes you to use those sites 5 which punish your opponent's Gandalf (The Grey and potentially Friend of Thorin), while keeping all wounds on the other versions (LotC and, again, potentially Friend of Thorin). So he gets some synergy with your own Shadow side!

He would also be the only Gandalf with a built-in counter to cards like Riddles in the Dark (when discarding The One Ring or Sting) and Goblin Song (when discarding Orcrist or the Ring of Thrór). Can even counter Smaug's artifact discarding, notably the Arkenstone to play the Shadow version in the next turn. But still will be only 1 artifact recovered per turn (and will be at the next turn), so those Shadow cards won't be rendered useless (the loss of FP resources will last the whole turn, reducing double moves; discarding more than 1 artifact will make part of its effect last much longer).


So he mantains his good parts (great Dwarf tutor, and returns refreshed at site 5+) while correcting the shortcomings (lack of Glamdring replay, and too steep self-replay cost). And gains some counters to both your opponent's FP (some Gandalfs) and Shadow sides (artifact discarding).

[-Enola-]

Thanks but the text is 6 lines long (no more lore text). Can you build something good with the 2 points you mentioned and events/cards?

Here's an example (5 lines)

•Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves
Companion • Wizard
Strength 7  Vitality 4
Wise.
Each Dwarf companion is twilight cost -1.
Fellowship: Add a doubt and remove 2 events in your discard pile from the game to to take a skirmish event (or an artifact) from your discard pile into hand.
"You do know my name... I am Gandalf."

[-Enola-]

Another version:

http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Cards_Good_def/Gandalf_alter8.png

[Tonio]

I am not sure it is a good idea to allow players to play back artifacts from discard... Isn't that too powerful?

As a shadow player, discarding Orcrist or Sting is not really easy...!

[Durin's Heir]

Thanks but the text is 6 lines long (no more lore text).

Hmmm, it can fit into 5 lines if the 1st skill is turned into a Fellowship special ability. I'd prefer that and only enhance the original LoD since the self-replay is really good, and differentiates him a lot: he turns a bad thing into healing for you (but not for your opponent!). It's not that part (but the steep cost and the lack of Glamdring replay) which makes him less appealing and strong.

"Fellowship: Exert Gandalf to play a Dwarf companion or an artifact from your draw deck or discard pile (limit 1)."    (3 lines)

Can you build something good with the 2 points you mentioned and events/cards?

I can try, but don't like the idea...

I mean, it's really hard if I try also to keep the self-replay (which uses 2 lines). If stays, the other 3 lines would need to be suficient for a "Glamdring replay skill" + either "a skill to fetch Dwarf companions" or 2 skills for "a cost reduction for Dwarves" + "good card drawing." So the easiest thing to do is to not change the 1st skill, while changing merely the cost of the Maneuver skill to instead burn cards:

"Maneuver: Discard 2 cards from hand to play Gandalf from your discard pile."

Still, cards in hand become useful again once Gandalf reappears, so that cost is counterproductive. And unfortunately the room is insuficient for "remove 2 cards in your discard pile from the game."

Another version:

http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Cards_Good_def/Gandalf_alter8.png

I feel that new text is complicated to understand, by reading once. The original LoD is simple and easy, while that version would have 4 different skills (2 individual, + 1 double).

Besides that, to "remove cards in discard from the game" those cards need to be in discard first, so its potential grows with the advance of the game; or said otherwise, it's really feeble if not impossible at Region 1. But the drawing skill needs to be good and easy at the early game, in order to counter the lack of Dwarf direct playing... so I'd change it to "discard cards from hand":

"Fellowship: Discard a card from hand to draw 2 cards (or 2 cards to play an artifact from your discard pile)."

The 1st alternative is easy to use from the very start (and is limited to twice per turn by the Rule of 4), while the 2nd is much harder to use (and that serves as natural limit).

But I believe Tonio is right: since discarding FP artifacts is hard, replaying them shouldn't be easy. In that sense, my version of LoD requires you to choose between an artifact and a much-needed Dwarf companion, only once per turn...

[Dictionary]

The current Leader of Dwarves would seem (appropriately) to have the most synergy and the least dependency - He's good at summoning dwarves but disinclined to fight afterwards, he gets the least out of equipment, and he loses the most from disappearing at site 5. He already synergises with Lore of Imladris, albeit indirectly because he works with Dwarves and their followers - followers need exertions to use.

I would argue that these features are what make him unique. cards and replaying artifacts are The Grey's specialties, not LoD's, while card draw is Friend to Thorin's focus. LoD's first ability is fine, and I think the second is good in principle, but not nearly powerful enough. Compare it with Radagast; why discard 2 followers when you can pay nothing and boost the move limit?

Lore of Imladris works well with LoD's theme, but it actually works against his maneuver ability, because players will want to aWiNL Elrond, which means they'll certainly have aWiNL and possibly Radagast too. With this in mind, his maneuver needs far more going for it, especially if he can't combine it with Glamdring.

I propose something like this:

•Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves
Companion • Wizard
Strength 7  Vitality 4
Wise.
At the start of your turn, you may exert Gandalf to play a Dwarf from your draw deck.
Maneuver: Play Gandalf from your discard pile to discard a minion (Except Smaug).
"You do know my name... I am Gandalf."

It further encourages less and more dependency, since you may not wish to replay him immediately, but wait for the opportune moment (Thus, no spotting Gandalf for several turns). This fits well with the story and Gandalf's character, and makes him stand out a bit more. It's powerful, but can only be used once, and it requires an appropriate site 5. It competes well with Radagast's ability, since the player will have to choose which to use for what situation.

Apologies if it seems like I'm clinging to the old idea, but it seems to me that there's a danger of some of the newer abilities becoming too similar to those of other Gandalfs, or ending up incredibly specialised rather than giving the players various options. Just giving my thoughts.

[-Enola-]

Thanks a lot for your advices. I'll discuss it with my group of players tomorrow.

[Phallen Cassidy]

I really like Dictionary's approach. Since there's only one opportunity to replay Gandalf in this format, discarding a minion at the already less threatening site 6 sounds pretty appropriate. I don't know how the other sets work, but if I remember Jails correctly this could make Gandalf very undesirable to jail, if next turn he can be played after the shadow phase and discard a companion. Again, I like Dictionary's card, and if it's balanced I think it should be kept. If you decide it's too strong, though, what about giving a Dwarf a strength boost when he's replayed? Or give every dwarf +1 strength? Keeps with the "supporting the Dwarves" theme, but doesn't make as big of a direct impact as discarding a mounted Azog, for example.

[Durin's Heir]

The problem of losing Glamdring is that Glamdring means 2 very important things: 1) tanks Gandalf to the towering base attributes of str 9 vit 4, making him your 2nd best fighter; and 2) that tank removes doubts with relative ease, turning weak minions into doubt remotion (uncomplete Swarms, fierce mid-strength minions and weak minions played just to unclog hand trigger it very often).

After losing it, you only got He Gives Me Courage (and the Acorn, in the 1st format) to remove doubts. That's why they don't want to have a Gandalf that will either lose his Gondolin blade, or will need to play it not sooner than Site 5. Format 2 will have Narya to prevent Gandalf's discard, and Site 6 Town Hall to replay any weapon, so Gandalf will have extrinsic ways of dealing with Glamdring's loss. But only there.

Recovering artifacts was always a weak spot in the development. Thorin can "place a artifact from your discard pile beneath your draw deck" (and needs Balin to increase chances of drawing it soon). But there's nothing for or artifacts (except The Grey), so perhaps removing that culture enforcement on Thorin's definitely-not-strong artifact recycling will help (but that requires printing again 8 copies of Thorin, instead of only 2 copies of Gandalf).


Another way is to give Gandalf LoD a base str of 8. All other Gandalfs can replay the sword (The Grey) or prevent its loss (FoT and LotC), so this one comes in clear skirmish disadvantage. A slightly higher strength would mean 2 good things: 1) he'll depend less on Glamdring, making its loss much more bearable; and 2) making him str 10 while wielding Glamdring will actually create a great need of triggering Site 5!

We know, Old Forest Road and Dol Guldur* give the Shadow player the option of NOT discarding him (and Forest River doesn't participate in that), and the threat of a fully-healed Gandalf reappearing (and also discarding a minion or so) makes that option not so disgusting actually. So let's give Shadow players a good reason to discard him! Also, as Dictionary points out rightly, this Gandalf's vitality will be taxed by the Dwarf companion fetching (and is the only self-exerting Gandalf), which makes him less secure to expose in skirmishes... that skirmish hindrance can be compensated by a slightly higher base strength.

* EDIT: Dol Guldur's text can be used by the FP player too!

Compare it with Radagast; why discard 2 followers when you can pay nothing and boost the move limit?

Because Radagast must replay him at Site 6+'s Fellowship phase (and the twilight can be used at Shadow phase), while LoD can reappear at Site 5+'s Maneuver, ready to face a minion (or some arrows). That's often the difference between a successful and a failing Swarm.

Maneuver: Play Gandalf from your discard pile to discard a minion (except Smaug).

I like Dictionary's idea, both in flavor and gameplay. But reappearing and also removing a minion from the struggle means 2 points more in the balance (vs Swarm). So if he discards a minion, I'd make it a Skirmish ability instead to make Gandalf can join the fight only in fierce skirmishes. Perhaps also "wound a minion twice" instead of discarding, to prevent him from eraing a mounted Azog/Bolg so easily as Phallen says. Since Gandalf's potential is mostly in Skirmish events, skipping the Maneuver phase would only stop He Gives Me Courage.

Since there's only one opportunity to replay Gandalf in this format, discarding a minion at the already less threatening site 6 sounds pretty appropriate.

That's not true. Gandalf's replaying can work since Site 5 (it's at Maneuver, you don't have to wait until the next turn). And Site 5 is often as perilous as Site 8. So while wounding a minion twice is good, erasing it seems too strong to me.

I don't know how the other sets work, but if I remember Jails correctly this could make Gandalf very undesirable to jail, if next turn he can be played after the shadow phase and discard a companion.

Jail retains Gandalf, so you need condition discard to release him to discard pile. And 3 minions can punish condition discard: Lemenya (like Bert, "discard an ally"), Enquea ("exert a companion") and Nertea ("play a minion from discard, at twilight cost -8").

If you decide it's too strong, though, what about giving a Dwarf a strength boost when he's replayed? Or give every dwarf +1 strength?

There's hardly room for such addition. But if the pump is for 1 Dwarf only, and lasts only during a skirmish, turning Gandalf's replay into a Skirmish ability will shorten that addition. Something like this (2 lines): "Skirmish: Play Gandalf from your discard pile to make a companion strength +3."

--------

With all that in mind, this would be my version of LoD:

•Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves
Companion • Wizard
Strength 8  Vitality 4
Wise.
At the start of each of your turns, you may exert Gandalf to play a Dwarf from your draw deck.
Maneuver: Play Gandalf from your discard pile to wound a minion twice.
"You do know my name... I am Gandalf."

Str 8, no artifact playing/replaying, can play both Dwarf companions and Dwarf followers, and reappears costlessly at Skirmish to deal 2 wounds (and thus save Dwalin or Bilbo from a Swarm). But cannot cycle (unlike FoT), cannot wound easily (unlike The Grey) and counters doubts much hardly (by losing Glamdring). And exerts a lot (unlike all other versions of Gandalf).


EDIT: Dol Guldur's current wording allows it to be used by any player (FP player too!), since it says "at the start of the Shadow phase" (only Shadow players can do Shadow phase actions, but this is NO phase action! Phase actions always have their phase worded in bold) and also "you may discard Gandalf" (doesn't specify which player).

That may be too much power in the FP player's hands for Leader of Dwarves, as this site's text creates a choice for the Shadow player on which both roads have pros and cons in the very important Site 5, AND different Gandalfs respond differently (The Grey is much better discarded; but an instantly-reappearing LoD + also each Wise ally is of no advantage for the Shadow, except perhaps for Glamdring's loss). The FP player's hands should be out of that decision.

[Dictionary]

Because Radagast must replay him at Site 6+'s Fellowship phase (and the twilight can be used at Shadow phase), while LoD can reappear at Site 5+'s Maneuver, ready to face a minion (or some arrows). That's often the difference between a successful and a failing Swarm.

But Radagast (and several elves) have home site 5, would you not say this balances out Gandalf's absence at this site? Don't get me wrong, I like it being a post-fellowship phase ability, but it still doesn't seem to do enough on its own.

Wound twice seems to weak to me. How about wound thrice? Mounted Azog, Bolg and Trolls will still live that way.

[Durin's Heir]

But Radagast (and several elves) have home site 5, would you not say this balances out Gandalf's absence at this site? Don't get me wrong, I like it being a post-fellowship phase ability, but it still doesn't seem to do enough on its own.

Radagast and Mirkwood allies are only in Format #1. In #2 there'll be the White Council (home 3), Esgaroth (home 6) and the Iron Hills (home 9) allies; in Format #3 there'll be Rivendell allies (home 3 again), and probably nothing else. So losing Gandalf will be much heavier in those formats, and then LoD gains some advantage over The Grey (and FoT, if Yazneg did a good previous work). We must also remember that Supplementary Packs are randomly chosen in the original Draft version, so you can't assure you'll get any ally at all in them.

But I agree completely with you in this: the self-replay must cost much less than 2 followers (if any!), and also pack a much stronger punch. And due to scarceness of card room, the cost is better erased to create a more interesing side effect.

Wound twice seems too weak too me. How about wound thrice? Mounted Azog, Bolg and Trolls will still live that way.

It'd need to be "wound a minion up to 3 times", otherwise you won't be able to target a minion with vitality 2 or less, as far as there's another one with vitality 3 or more. But 3 times is too much, since can easily be paired with Kili twice or Dawn Take You All will easily kill any vit 5 minion: Smaug, Threatening Warg + Azog/Bolg, or Sauron + the Ring of Thrór.

Wound "twice/up to 2 times" is good by itself, with or without additional wounding. Besides, it's a side effect of replaying a fully-healed Gandalf.

----

Been rethinking the phase of the replaying, and Maneuver should be better (unless the effect is a pump). Allows the Shadow side a some degree of response (Azog Commander plays minions at Maneuver, Hidden/Spider Nest play Orcs/Spiders at Assignment; those can use Gandalf's twilight) and also allow him to take arrows if needed. Besides, having the chance of irrupting with 2 wounds in any Skirmish where things don't go as expected is too disruptive for the Shadow player's strategy.

[Durin's Heir]

Can you build something good with the 2 points you mentioned and events/cards?

By removing the self-replay (which I'd rather not) and the direct fetching, and adding both drawing and Glamdring-replaying, there should be some remaining room for some interaction with cards. Here's my try:

•Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves
Companion • Wizard
Strength 7  Vitality 4
Wise.
Each Dwarf companion is twilight cost -1.
Each time a companion heals, draw a card.
Regroup: Discard 2 cards from hand to heal a charactar or to play a artifact from your discard pile.
"You do know my name... I am Gandalf.

Can start with either Thorin + Dwalin/Balin/Nori, or Thorin + 2 of Fili/Kili/Glóin. The combo Glóin + Fili should be awesome to start!

The 1st skill gives you great drawing at sanctuaries, and draws after Fellowship phase with Lore of Imladris, Óin and Elrond; should be great to help your shadow side to assemble killer hands. The 2nd skill allows you to heal allies and companions in emergency cases (and so the latter draws a card), and to replay Glamdring/Staff/Narya.


Still, I'd prefer to stick around the Maneuver self-replay. But I told you I could try to do something that requires card, and here's my try.

[-Enola-]

Sorry for the delay, I hadn't time to post more comments these last weeks.
We made a Draft Game with 6 players 2 weeks ago. We think this could be a good Gandalf:



We didn't have a "suicide" Gandalf helping the Shadow side a lot.

[Durin's Heir]

Seems that delay is either a property of none, or of everyone. I'm sorry too.


You got a really interesting Gandalf there...

The drawing just before becoming the Shadow player seems really nice! But it won't be enough to compensate the lack of direct Dwarf playing from deck (to do so, you'd either need to draw at Fellowship phase, or draw lots post-Fellowship with more ease), so I'd broaden it to each time "you reconcile or play a spell", and also change "add a doubt" to "exert Gandalf" to make it easier to pay (and get a benefit from being discarded at site 5). Besides, adding doubts to draw cards is Friend of Thorin's identity... and self-exhausting is much more "suicidal" .

The Glamdring replay skill is good and balanced, but I'd prefer it to be less specific. I believe it might very well play "a weapon" from discard, since the cost is high enough so you cannot use it often. If so, he'd be able to both back up Sting / Orcrist / Hadafang / Axes-spears, and to replay the discard-to-wound [Dale] weapons. Also, would bring more cycling (since the effect plays from discard, you need to have the target in discard before being able to pay the cost, if that's your true intention).

The cost reduction for Balin only is excessively specific to my taste, too. Starting Gandalf + Thorin + Balin is powerful, but without a skill to play them from deck the FP player must have the chance to start Kili (if pulls a good bunch of wounding cards in the draft) or Dwalin (if the meta is heavy on Swarm shadows), for instance. Specificity = lack of versatility. So "each Dwarf companion is twilight cost -1" would be better: since this Gandalf can't draw at Fellowship phase, being able to start either Dwalin or 3 cost Dwarf companions can be the difference between surviving the early game and not.


•Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves
Companion • Wizard
Strength 7  Vitality 4
Wise.
Each Dwarf companion is twilight cost -1.
Each time you reconcile or play a spell, you may exert Gandalf to draw 2 cards.
Fellowship: Discard 2 cards from hand to play a weapon from your discard pile.
"You do know my name... I am Gandalf."


Hope it's not too late to post this. And Happy delayed New Year, my friend!

[-Enola-]

I wish you a Happy New Year too and a good health for the coming year.

Ok for your proposition. I don't take the "play a spell" part, because the text becomes weird and complicated with two different causes at different times. But I keep this ability in memory for modifications after the first tests.

[Durin's Heir]

Thanks! A little help from luck wouldn't be unwelcome.


Alright! But a slight change can be added to make it trigger more, without the previous weirdness: instead of "you reconcile", might be "a player reconciles", so you can benefit from it if you move again, and to some smaller extent if you don't (when you reconcile, you'll have more cards to decide which one will be discarded).

It'd also trigger with cards that force players to reconcile, like Lembas or Under Foot. The Rivendell or Blue Mountains packs might use that mechanic. Long time ago I made a event to portray the "calm before the storm" after Smaug's death, which made players reconcile in Maneuver phase... it used very weird and complicated mechanics then, but is more polished now. It's an example of how that effect can be included:

A Plan Long In The Making
Event • Shadow
Spot 2 Orcs to heal each companion and ally. For each wound healed, add and you may place a Shadow card (except Smaug) from your discard pile on top of your draw deck. Each player reconciles hand.
"Our enemy has summoned his full strength."

So maybe the Moon Runes event, Lindir or the Rivendell Scouts might make you reconcile.


EDIT #1: What about reversing those roles? The reconcile might be not the trigger, but the effect instead!

•Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves
Companion • Wizard
Strength 7  Vitality 4
Wise.
Each Dwarf companion is twilight cost -1.
Fellowship: Discard 2 cards from hand to play a artifact from your discard pile or reconcile your hand.
"You do know my name, though you don't remember that I belong to it. I am Gandalf, and Gandalf means me!"


The discarding of 2 cards guarantees you'll be drawing 2+ cards with it. Remember, the Rule of 4 still applies, so it has that natural limit. It even has 1 spare line for another short skill, or for a longer loretext as shown above.

I'm not saying you should ditch all that was said before, it's just another possibility no one had mentioned.



EDIT #2: Fellowship is a bad phase for a reconcile skill, precisely due to the Rule of 4 as that conflict will cause confusion on players (would be the 1st time that reconciling would have a limit for drawing). So is much better at Regroup or Maneuver, with a "limit once/twice" to confine its power:

"Regroup: Discard 2 cards from hand to play a weapon from your discard pile or reconcile your hand (limit once)." (3 lines, like the Fellowship phase version.)

[-Enola-]

The last Gandalf you propose are not simple or better for the Shadow side.
Gandalf doesn't need to make the FP player reconcile, but he will increase the number of cards in your hand for the Shadow side (10 cards is great when you play swarm!).
Here's a new proposition (without an easy way to start with Balin).

•Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves
Companion • Wizard
Strength 7  Vitality 4
Wise.
Each time you reconcile, you may add a doubt to draw 2 cards.
Skirmish: Remove 2 events from the game in your discard pile to play a skirmish event from your discard pile.
"You do know my name... I am Gandalf."

[Durin's Heir]

The last Gandalf you propose are not simple or better for the Shadow side.
Gandalf doesn't need to make the FP player reconcile, but he will increase the number of cards in your hand for the Shadow side (10 cards is great when you play swarm!).

The problem is that he either needs to play Dwarves directly from deck, or needs to cycle well for the FP side (preferrably at Fellowship phase). One or the other, otherwise won't work well enough to set up the Company before disappearing at site 5, which is his main role.

That's why I proposed the "reconcile or play a spell" trigger, because though you wouldn't draw in Fellowship phase, it'd make you draw tons in your turn while keeping your 10-cards hand effect in your opponent's. It'd keep both drawing effects (for FP and Shadow) inside the same skill, which is important considering the scarceness of available card room: only 4 total lines for 2 skills (the Glamdring replay and the drawing engine), since the rest are already spent in other needs (1 for Wise, 1 for loretext and 1 for the cost reduction).

Another possibility is to simply ditch the need of drawing for your FP side, while keeping the skill solely for the Shadow. Said otherwise, play Dwarves directly from deck (and keep your skill with only the "reconcile" trigger). That also erases the need of a cost reduction, freeing more room. Something like this:

•Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves
Companion • Wizard
Strength 7  Vitality 4
Wise.
Each time you reconcile, you may add a doubt to draw 2 cards.
Fellowship: Discard 2 cards from hand to play a weapon from your discard pile or a Dwarf companion from your draw deck.
"You do know my name... I am Gandalf."


Costs so you can start him with Thorin (since the Dwarf playing is very costly). The Fellowship skill will play Dwarf companions from deck at the early sites, and recover Glamdring/other weapons at 5 or onwards, and is limited to 1 per turn most of the times by its steep cost (rarely you'll have 4 cards to ditch in a single turn, or 6).

Finally, your skill to have 10 cards when playing Shadow is not only preserved, but also boosted by the cycling you'll get by discarding 2*X cards! This is now my favorite version of all my proposals.

Here's a new proposition (without an easy way to start with Balin).

•Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves
Companion • Wizard
Strength 7  Vitality 4
Wise.
Each time you reconcile, you may add a doubt to draw 2 cards.
Maneuver: Remove 2 events from the game in your discard pile to play a skirmish event from your discard pile.
"You do know my name... I am Gandalf."

You said it right, it'll create big problems with the Balin pack. The Maneuver skill is useless if not changed to Skirmish, and then will be too powerful at the late game (unless a limit is added, but there's no room for it).

And still lacks a way to cycle well enough for your FP side, or to play Dwarves directly from deck. And to recover Glamdring, which is what killed the original Leader of Dwarves in Gemp.

The idea of removing FP cards from discard pile to pay a special ability or replay an event is good, but I'd let it for the new Supplementary Packs only (as including it in a Main deck card like Gandalf will force that mechanic to be included in formats/packs that had no interaction and thus no balance needed with it, like Moria Swarm which already has a hard time defeating the FP).

[-Enola-]

Can you make a card without "or" or "and"? This will make cards simpler.

Glamdring is replace by the way Gandalf will boost Dwarves. Glamdring is a very strong card and it's not necessary to make it an auto-include card.

[Durin's Heir]

Glamdring removes doubts, while your 10-cards skill needs to add doubts constantly. Besides, you wanted this new Leader of Dwarves to satisfy Gemp players, which never use the original (although it works well in the Draft Game).

It's impossible to make that Fellowship skill fit into the current 3 lines by splitting into 2 (one to replay Glamdring, other to play Dwarves). That's what implies avoiding the use of "or".

Keep in mind what was said early in this thread, that any new version of Gandalf needs 2 things:
1) either a skill to play Dwarves directly from deck, or a way to start with many + also a good cycling engine for the FP.
2) either a way to prevent his discarding at 5, or a way to replay Glamdring.

[-Enola-]

The original is the ok in Draft Game, but not very fun.

With a cost of , FP player will start with start with 2 Dwarves and he will constantly draw 2 more cards at the end of each FP turn.
The event "He Gives Me Courage" will be a key event for this Gandalf, removing doubts and activating the second skill then.

[Durin's Heir]

Will draw 2 cards per turn, that's good but not enough to compensate the lack of direct playing. And much worse, too late to use them immediatly (if are Dwarf companions/followers, those cards won't be used for Hatred Rekindled and thus won't help your shadow side!). Definitely NOT enough a FP set up skill.

He Gives Me Courage will need to be recycled by Balin, which is impossible if you remove it from the game. And at site 9 those copies might be still in draw deck (due to Balin's skill) so then won't feed the pump replaying skill. Also, the few copies of He Gives Me Courage must be drawn to remove 1/2 doubts so isn't really reliable to counter a skill's cost that'll add at the very least 5+ doubts per game.

Also, at site 8 or 9 replaying the same skirmish event 5 times by removing 10 cards is very OP, so needs a limit (but has no room).


EDIT: Been thinking again about the issue of not starting with Balin, and it's worse than I thought: we know that since this new version lacks a way to recover Glamdring you'll need to rely on He Gives Me Courage to remove the endogenous doubts (much more if you play vs Corruption or The Necromancer). So you'll need Balin to recycle those copies over and over... but Balin must be drawn, and for worse, the cycling engine is weak and not efficient for the FP!

So you'll need to recover Glamdring, and perferrably be able to start Balin too (or play him from deck) or will be weak (or the Shadow aid useless) vs Corruption. Which means 1 to 3 lines (1 for a cost reduction, 2 for a Glamdring replay, 3 for both). But this version is already lacking the room for the small addition of a simple "(limit twice)" or so for the Skirmish skill!


So my conclusion is that the puzzle has not enough pieces, cannot be solved. Thus use another one.

[-Enola-]

"Each time you reconcile, you may add a doubt to draw 2 cards." These 2 lines seem very good, the other players like it a lot.
We have 3 other lines to make Gandalf good for the FP player, just an ability for Glamdring or play Gandalf from discard pile is by far too weak, it's once per game...

We need a strong ability. Any simple proposition?

[Durin's Heir]

I'm sorry for this delay, had some connection troubles (and will probably have them again).


Yes, that line is very good. For the Shadow. But totally insufficient a cycling engine for the FP. I too want to keep it, but the FP cycling problem must solved by another skill.

Gandalf's set up role has 2 possible pathways: one simple (fetch Dwarves from deck) and one complex (a cost reduction to start with many -and allow Balin decks to be viable-, and also a very good cycling skill to draw the rest). My last version uses the simplest of options. Which avoids all the need of a FP cycling skill, solving the previous point.

Then, the original Leader of Dwarves is unpopular in Gemp 'cause loses Glamdring, and now that new reconcile drawing skill will even increases its need. So not recovering will be a very strong flaw.


So, we got 2 needs and only 3 lines for them (the other 4 are used by your drawing skill, loretext and Wise). "Play Glamdring from your discard pile" and "play a Dwarf from your draw deck" are simply too long to be reduced to 1 sole line, so two skills each with 2+ lines must be necessarily merged into one in order to fit into that scarceness. Which requires them to use the same cost, and use a connector like "and" or "or" for the effect.

With all that explained, I think my last proposal is very simple:

•Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves
Companion • Wizard
Strength 7  Vitality 4
Wise.
Each time you reconcile, you may add a doubt to draw 2 cards.
Fellowship: Discard 2 cards from hand to play a weapon from your discard pile or a Dwarf companion from your draw deck.
"You do know my name... I am Gandalf."


"Weapon" may be changed to "Glamdring", so it needs less thinking. If you want to remove a word, remove "companion" so also Dwarf followers may be fetched. The cost is high enough to stop abuses, paying it twice in the same turn will be really unlikely (also, you'll need to retain some tricks!). That cost also synergizes with your reconcile drawing skill, as helps to clear the hand from FP cards.


This answers to those 2 needs, while your version instead uses a totally new mechanic (playing pumps from discard, by removing cards from discard) which besides not solving those, creates new needs of balance (with Moria Swarm, for instance). But both versions keep the drawing for the Shadow.

[-Enola-]

Your version is structurally too similar with Gandalf, The Grey, and probably weaker .

[Durin's Heir]

Weaker perhaps, but only for the FP. While the Shadow keeps your boost (pushing your opponent to be more defensive with FP and less offensive with Shadow ).

Still, the cost is much safer than adding 2 doubts. Also, will cycle A LOT more than the Grey (due to both skills); will be BOTH a fetching Gandy like The Grey & LotC, and a cycling Gandy like Friend of Thorin. To make him less weak, he can play both Dwarf companions and followers, which no Gandalf version (or Main Deck card) currently does.


I know it's easy for me to say it (since I'm not bound to schedules or family/social commitments), but the conclusion will require some playtesting.

[-Enola-]

New quick proposition:

•Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves
Companion • Wizard
Strength 7  Vitality 4
Wise.
Each time you reconcile, you may add a doubt to draw 2 cards.
Skirmish: If you played at least 2 events this turn, play a card from your draw deck (limit once per turn).
"You do know my name... I am Gandalf."

[Legion]

Oh I really like that!

[-Enola-]

After a quick test, the last Gandalf was a bit hard to play. This one will be simpler


•Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves
Companion • Wizard
Strength 7  Vitality 4
Wise.
Each time you reconcile, you may add a doubt to draw 2 cards.
Skirmish: Play a skirmish event and add a doubt to play a companion or a skirmish event from your draw deck.
"You do know my name... I am Gandalf."

[Durin's Heir]

With only 2 skirmish events in the whole Main Deck, this skill will work wonders in Gemp (max 8 copies, + Beorn & the Eagles Are Coming) but not so in the Draft version (anywhere from 2 to 6 copies). Keep in mind he will have only 3 sites (2 to 4) to set up the Company before being discarded, so the chances of getting those events in time must be high. Balin can recycle them, but that's not enough. A cycling mechanism for the FP would help him to get them sooner, so I believe he should play "a Dwarf or a skirmish event" so he can get Ori for that cycling task. Note that Ori would also synergize wonderfully with the Shadow cycling!

Balin will be busy recycling both the events to pay the skill and the ones to use later. He and Gandalf (Dawn Take You All) will often need Óin's help to keep their vitality up, which is another reason to broaden it to any "Dwarf". With such a great support from the Skirmish skill, and by playing those Dwarves during that phase providing choke, a small Company won't be so vulnerable at the early and middle game (Bilbo, Thorin, Gandalf and Balin) so focusing the effort on getting the followers + Balin before all other companions shouldn't be a peril.

A nice thing is that Sting will trigger with Dawn Take You All: you play it to kill/discard a minion skirmishing Bilbo, and before the skirmish ends due to that minion's absence, you play from deck any event just to trigger the condition discard.


About Glamdring, I'm not sure... doesn't seem so worrisome to lose it due to the Skirmish skill, at least for fighting. But both the reconcile skill and the Skirmish set up skill will force you to add 2 doubts per turn very often, and the Skirmish one will be a strong need from site 2 to 4. If the doubts happen to be troublesome in playtesting, you might try to change one or the other skill to exert Gandalf instead of adding a doubt (preferrably NOT the skirmish one, or Dawn Take You All will cost 3 total exertions!). That would even turn Gandalf's discarding at 5 into something beneficial (by returning totally healed).

[Phallen Cassidy]

You can always wager that you can't afford to pay a doubt opt not to. Beefing up your shadow phase during your Free Peoples' turn is huge, and it shouldn't be a no-brainer.

[-Enola-]

If I made no mistake, there is more than 85-90% chance to have a skirmish event before site 4 (if you draw 4 cards each time you reconcile with a deck of 70 cards with only 4 skirmish events).

In order to be coherent with the other Gandalf, we will only let Dwarf companions to be played from deck (and not Dwarven followers).

We made a quick test yesterday. This new Gandalf was really nice to play.

[Durin's Heir]

If I made no mistake, there is more than 85-90% chance to have a skirmish event before site 4 (if you draw 4 cards each time you reconcile with a deck of 70 cards with only 4 skirmish events).

We're not understanding well each other... the old Leader of Dwarves played a Dwarf companion once per turn, that's up to 4 times (and often 4 times) before moving to site 5. And so does LotC. Any Skirmish phase skill will have 1 site less to work, which is fine (although will be able to use the skill more than once per turn, if no limit added). So I'm talking about using the skill 3 or 4 times before losing Gandalf at 5, not only once!

If we're talking about setting up the Company well before dissappearing, 1 or 2 uses of the set up skill are clearly insufficient. The other 3 Gandalfs don't have that problem: The Grey plays whenever and whatever he wants (as far as doubts aren't excessive), Friend of Thorin starts with 1 companion more (than the new LoD, and than The Grey) and cycles much better, and LotC plays 1 companion per turn like the old LoD (but doesn't get discarded).

In order to be coherent with the other Gandalf, we will only let Dwarf companions to be played from deck (and not Dwarven followers).

The Grey isn't coherent with the rest in that he's the only that can play artifacts. And the only who can also play companions from discard pile (and again, artifact too). In The Clouds Burst (Format #2), the artifact playing skill will save him all worries of being discarded at site 5, due to Narya.

This new Leader of Dwarves is in clear disadvantage, as he cannot play 3 or 4 Dwarf companions before site 5 as all the 4 other Gandalfs can (that is, the 3 other + the old LoD). So why not thinking outside of the box with followers? Besides, isn't he the "Leader of ALL Dwarves" in the Company?

We made a quick test yesterday. This new Gandalf was really nice to play.

I really believe he must be nice to play, and that's great if you ask me. But I also want him to be more stable, because a bad draft will really kill this new version most of the times. Unless he can get access to a good cycling mechanism (for the FP side).

I believe most of the new fun comes from the reconcile skill, and including Dwarf followers won't change that part at all. Moreover, being able to pull both Ori and Balin (without depending on Bilbo's Kitchen) will synergize marvelously with it! Even MORE fun!

Besides, you wanted to increase Ori's play and usefulness. This can be a good way to do so.

You can always wager that you can't afford to pay a doubt opt not to. Beefing up your shadow phase during your Free Peoples' turn is huge, and it shouldn't be a no-brainer.

Yeah, you're right. And this Gandalf will have the same doubt strain as The Grey, assuming that both use all their skills once per turn.

The only thing that worries me is that The Grey has easy access to Glamdring to keep doubts at bay, and can also replay it if needed. This new LoD will need to use Site 2 to get it (to the detriment of Orcrist and Sting), and will also use Glamdring's effect in max 3 sites before Mirkwood/Old Forest Road/Dol Guldur takes place... and that, assuming your opponent plays any minion (weak enough to lose vs Gandalf) in each of those sites.

Besides, playing no minions at Trollshaw Forest (ergo, no Maneuver phase) is evil!

[-Enola-]

The fun part is also playing skirmish events from your draw deck...

If the setup is not good enough (but it didn't happen at all in our tests), Gandalf could cost then.

Playing followers from draw deck isn't a good idea, because it will make Bilbo's Kitchen less necessary to take in draft.

[Durin's Heir]

The fun part is also playing skirmish events from your draw deck...

That's great. But that won't change by including followers. And as with the reconcile skill, having better cycling should enhance that pump playing too. Mixing FP cycling with the new Shadow drawing will only increase the fun!

If the setup is not good enough (but it didn't happen at all in our tests)...

If you test it enough, the unstability of this new Gandalf will be evident. Test it with a full Draft procedure, with each opponent focused on removing every pump from his reach. The less events he has, the more randomness will have to carry (you said time ago that you don't want to increase randomness).

...Gandalf could cost then.

That would help. But this Gandalf depends to some extent on Balin, and he cannot be played along with Thorin (without cost reduction). So while still useful, it's far from the ideal. The source of all unstability is the scarceness of available skirmish events in Main Deck and Draft, so a way to fix that is including some few more events from another phase:

"Fellowship or Skirmish: Play a skirmish event and add a doubt to play a Dwarf or a skirmish event from your draw deck."

That'd include only AWINL (the sole fellowship event in the whole game). So it'd play Dwarves too, but very differently from pumps as it'd add twilight at the right time for the Shadow player to use (also, the Marauder would spot excessive companions/followers). Your smart doubt cost is still there preventing abuses. So would be 3 Main Deck events, which means 6 total copies in the Draft to pull. And so the scarceness is fixed.

Playing followers from draw deck isn't a good idea, because it will make Bilbo's Kitchen less necessary to take in draft.

I disagree. No Main Deck card should depend on a card that only possibly will be get during the Draft. Also, by playing artifacts from deck, The Grey weakens the importance of other cards that need to be pulled from Draft (though those still provide usefulness, by diversifying the cost from doubts alone): Thráin, Thrór's Heirlooms, Dwarven Song, Underground Lake, Town Hall, the current Unveiling Moon Runes Secrets, and to some extent Old Thrush.

The same happens with both Sites 2; he can start 2nd and play The Troll Hoard as site 2 (to delay opponent there) and then double move from 1 to 3. And with Goblin Town / Underground Lake, so he can use Wooded Steep Cliff instead with much less problems to himself (to weaken Thorin, and potentially play Smaug).

Making him depend on Bilbo's Kitchen will bring more randomness. Also, he'll be busy enough in the Draft trying to get as many skirmish events as possible, so forcing him to also focus on Bilbo's Kitchen creates a chance for the opponent to remove a pump from his reach.

So let The Grey be the king of spells and fancy devices, while LoD can be the king of follower playing!

[-Enola-]

"Fellowship or Skirmish: Play a skirmish event and add a doubt to play a Dwarf or a skirmish event from your draw deck."

Complicated and with a fault..... new players will believe that we can play skirmish events in fellowship phase....

We'll choose after some tests if Gandalf should cost .

[Durin's Heir]

Hmm, alright. By removing the "skirmish" word before the culture symbol, the skill will be able to play both Skirmish and Fellowship events. Which implies potentially playing TMOMK from deck.

"Fellowship or Skirmish: Play a event and add a doubt to play a Dwarf or a skirmish event from your draw deck."

New players will believe that we can play skirmish events in fellowship phase....

Maybe. But anyway, they'll realize immediatly that playing them in Fellowship phase is totally useless. Except perhaps to filter them out (by paying the specific cost of playing AWINL + adding a doubt).