New Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves for the Hobbit Draft Game

[-Enola-]

I wish you a Happy New Year too and a good health for the coming year.

Ok for your proposition. I don't take the "play a spell" part, because the text becomes weird and complicated with two different causes at different times. But I keep this ability in memory for modifications after the first tests.

[Durin's Heir]

Thanks! A little help from luck wouldn't be unwelcome.


Alright! But a slight change can be added to make it trigger more, without the previous weirdness: instead of "you reconcile", might be "a player reconciles", so you can benefit from it if you move again, and to some smaller extent if you don't (when you reconcile, you'll have more cards to decide which one will be discarded).

It'd also trigger with cards that force players to reconcile, like Lembas or Under Foot. The Rivendell or Blue Mountains packs might use that mechanic. Long time ago I made a event to portray the "calm before the storm" after Smaug's death, which made players reconcile in Maneuver phase... it used very weird and complicated mechanics then, but is more polished now. It's an example of how that effect can be included:

A Plan Long In The Making
Event • Shadow
Spot 2 Orcs to heal each companion and ally. For each wound healed, add and you may place a Shadow card (except Smaug) from your discard pile on top of your draw deck. Each player reconciles hand.
"Our enemy has summoned his full strength."

So maybe the Moon Runes event, Lindir or the Rivendell Scouts might make you reconcile.


EDIT #1: What about reversing those roles? The reconcile might be not the trigger, but the effect instead!

•Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves
Companion • Wizard
Strength 7  Vitality 4
Wise.
Each Dwarf companion is twilight cost -1.
Fellowship: Discard 2 cards from hand to play a artifact from your discard pile or reconcile your hand.
"You do know my name, though you don't remember that I belong to it. I am Gandalf, and Gandalf means me!"


The discarding of 2 cards guarantees you'll be drawing 2+ cards with it. Remember, the Rule of 4 still applies, so it has that natural limit. It even has 1 spare line for another short skill, or for a longer loretext as shown above.

I'm not saying you should ditch all that was said before, it's just another possibility no one had mentioned.



EDIT #2: Fellowship is a bad phase for a reconcile skill, precisely due to the Rule of 4 as that conflict will cause confusion on players (would be the 1st time that reconciling would have a limit for drawing). So is much better at Regroup or Maneuver, with a "limit once/twice" to confine its power:

"Regroup: Discard 2 cards from hand to play a weapon from your discard pile or reconcile your hand (limit once)." (3 lines, like the Fellowship phase version.)

[-Enola-]

The last Gandalf you propose are not simple or better for the Shadow side.
Gandalf doesn't need to make the FP player reconcile, but he will increase the number of cards in your hand for the Shadow side (10 cards is great when you play swarm!).
Here's a new proposition (without an easy way to start with Balin).

•Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves
Companion • Wizard
Strength 7  Vitality 4
Wise.
Each time you reconcile, you may add a doubt to draw 2 cards.
Skirmish: Remove 2 events from the game in your discard pile to play a skirmish event from your discard pile.
"You do know my name... I am Gandalf."

[Durin's Heir]

The last Gandalf you propose are not simple or better for the Shadow side.
Gandalf doesn't need to make the FP player reconcile, but he will increase the number of cards in your hand for the Shadow side (10 cards is great when you play swarm!).

The problem is that he either needs to play Dwarves directly from deck, or needs to cycle well for the FP side (preferrably at Fellowship phase). One or the other, otherwise won't work well enough to set up the Company before disappearing at site 5, which is his main role.

That's why I proposed the "reconcile or play a spell" trigger, because though you wouldn't draw in Fellowship phase, it'd make you draw tons in your turn while keeping your 10-cards hand effect in your opponent's. It'd keep both drawing effects (for FP and Shadow) inside the same skill, which is important considering the scarceness of available card room: only 4 total lines for 2 skills (the Glamdring replay and the drawing engine), since the rest are already spent in other needs (1 for Wise, 1 for loretext and 1 for the cost reduction).

Another possibility is to simply ditch the need of drawing for your FP side, while keeping the skill solely for the Shadow. Said otherwise, play Dwarves directly from deck (and keep your skill with only the "reconcile" trigger). That also erases the need of a cost reduction, freeing more room. Something like this:

•Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves
Companion • Wizard
Strength 7  Vitality 4
Wise.
Each time you reconcile, you may add a doubt to draw 2 cards.
Fellowship: Discard 2 cards from hand to play a weapon from your discard pile or a Dwarf companion from your draw deck.
"You do know my name... I am Gandalf."


Costs so you can start him with Thorin (since the Dwarf playing is very costly). The Fellowship skill will play Dwarf companions from deck at the early sites, and recover Glamdring/other weapons at 5 or onwards, and is limited to 1 per turn most of the times by its steep cost (rarely you'll have 4 cards to ditch in a single turn, or 6).

Finally, your skill to have 10 cards when playing Shadow is not only preserved, but also boosted by the cycling you'll get by discarding 2*X cards! This is now my favorite version of all my proposals.

Here's a new proposition (without an easy way to start with Balin).

•Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves
Companion • Wizard
Strength 7  Vitality 4
Wise.
Each time you reconcile, you may add a doubt to draw 2 cards.
Maneuver: Remove 2 events from the game in your discard pile to play a skirmish event from your discard pile.
"You do know my name... I am Gandalf."

You said it right, it'll create big problems with the Balin pack. The Maneuver skill is useless if not changed to Skirmish, and then will be too powerful at the late game (unless a limit is added, but there's no room for it).

And still lacks a way to cycle well enough for your FP side, or to play Dwarves directly from deck. And to recover Glamdring, which is what killed the original Leader of Dwarves in Gemp.

The idea of removing FP cards from discard pile to pay a special ability or replay an event is good, but I'd let it for the new Supplementary Packs only (as including it in a Main deck card like Gandalf will force that mechanic to be included in formats/packs that had no interaction and thus no balance needed with it, like Moria Swarm which already has a hard time defeating the FP).

[-Enola-]

Can you make a card without "or" or "and"? This will make cards simpler.

Glamdring is replace by the way Gandalf will boost Dwarves. Glamdring is a very strong card and it's not necessary to make it an auto-include card.

[Durin's Heir]

Glamdring removes doubts, while your 10-cards skill needs to add doubts constantly. Besides, you wanted this new Leader of Dwarves to satisfy Gemp players, which never use the original (although it works well in the Draft Game).

It's impossible to make that Fellowship skill fit into the current 3 lines by splitting into 2 (one to replay Glamdring, other to play Dwarves). That's what implies avoiding the use of "or".

Keep in mind what was said early in this thread, that any new version of Gandalf needs 2 things:
1) either a skill to play Dwarves directly from deck, or a way to start with many + also a good cycling engine for the FP.
2) either a way to prevent his discarding at 5, or a way to replay Glamdring.

[-Enola-]

The original is the ok in Draft Game, but not very fun.

With a cost of , FP player will start with start with 2 Dwarves and he will constantly draw 2 more cards at the end of each FP turn.
The event "He Gives Me Courage" will be a key event for this Gandalf, removing doubts and activating the second skill then.

[Durin's Heir]

Will draw 2 cards per turn, that's good but not enough to compensate the lack of direct playing. And much worse, too late to use them immediatly (if are Dwarf companions/followers, those cards won't be used for Hatred Rekindled and thus won't help your shadow side!). Definitely NOT enough a FP set up skill.

He Gives Me Courage will need to be recycled by Balin, which is impossible if you remove it from the game. And at site 9 those copies might be still in draw deck (due to Balin's skill) so then won't feed the pump replaying skill. Also, the few copies of He Gives Me Courage must be drawn to remove 1/2 doubts so isn't really reliable to counter a skill's cost that'll add at the very least 5+ doubts per game.

Also, at site 8 or 9 replaying the same skirmish event 5 times by removing 10 cards is very OP, so needs a limit (but has no room).


EDIT: Been thinking again about the issue of not starting with Balin, and it's worse than I thought: we know that since this new version lacks a way to recover Glamdring you'll need to rely on He Gives Me Courage to remove the endogenous doubts (much more if you play vs Corruption or The Necromancer). So you'll need Balin to recycle those copies over and over... but Balin must be drawn, and for worse, the cycling engine is weak and not efficient for the FP!

So you'll need to recover Glamdring, and perferrably be able to start Balin too (or play him from deck) or will be weak (or the Shadow aid useless) vs Corruption. Which means 1 to 3 lines (1 for a cost reduction, 2 for a Glamdring replay, 3 for both). But this version is already lacking the room for the small addition of a simple "(limit twice)" or so for the Skirmish skill!


So my conclusion is that the puzzle has not enough pieces, cannot be solved. Thus use another one.

[-Enola-]

"Each time you reconcile, you may add a doubt to draw 2 cards." These 2 lines seem very good, the other players like it a lot.
We have 3 other lines to make Gandalf good for the FP player, just an ability for Glamdring or play Gandalf from discard pile is by far too weak, it's once per game...

We need a strong ability. Any simple proposition?

[Durin's Heir]

I'm sorry for this delay, had some connection troubles (and will probably have them again).


Yes, that line is very good. For the Shadow. But totally insufficient a cycling engine for the FP. I too want to keep it, but the FP cycling problem must solved by another skill.

Gandalf's set up role has 2 possible pathways: one simple (fetch Dwarves from deck) and one complex (a cost reduction to start with many -and allow Balin decks to be viable-, and also a very good cycling skill to draw the rest). My last version uses the simplest of options. Which avoids all the need of a FP cycling skill, solving the previous point.

Then, the original Leader of Dwarves is unpopular in Gemp 'cause loses Glamdring, and now that new reconcile drawing skill will even increases its need. So not recovering will be a very strong flaw.


So, we got 2 needs and only 3 lines for them (the other 4 are used by your drawing skill, loretext and Wise). "Play Glamdring from your discard pile" and "play a Dwarf from your draw deck" are simply too long to be reduced to 1 sole line, so two skills each with 2+ lines must be necessarily merged into one in order to fit into that scarceness. Which requires them to use the same cost, and use a connector like "and" or "or" for the effect.

With all that explained, I think my last proposal is very simple:

•Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves
Companion • Wizard
Strength 7  Vitality 4
Wise.
Each time you reconcile, you may add a doubt to draw 2 cards.
Fellowship: Discard 2 cards from hand to play a weapon from your discard pile or a Dwarf companion from your draw deck.
"You do know my name... I am Gandalf."


"Weapon" may be changed to "Glamdring", so it needs less thinking. If you want to remove a word, remove "companion" so also Dwarf followers may be fetched. The cost is high enough to stop abuses, paying it twice in the same turn will be really unlikely (also, you'll need to retain some tricks!). That cost also synergizes with your reconcile drawing skill, as helps to clear the hand from FP cards.


This answers to those 2 needs, while your version instead uses a totally new mechanic (playing pumps from discard, by removing cards from discard) which besides not solving those, creates new needs of balance (with Moria Swarm, for instance). But both versions keep the drawing for the Shadow.

[-Enola-]

Your version is structurally too similar with Gandalf, The Grey, and probably weaker .

[Durin's Heir]

Weaker perhaps, but only for the FP. While the Shadow keeps your boost (pushing your opponent to be more defensive with FP and less offensive with Shadow ).

Still, the cost is much safer than adding 2 doubts. Also, will cycle A LOT more than the Grey (due to both skills); will be BOTH a fetching Gandy like The Grey & LotC, and a cycling Gandy like Friend of Thorin. To make him less weak, he can play both Dwarf companions and followers, which no Gandalf version (or Main Deck card) currently does.


I know it's easy for me to say it (since I'm not bound to schedules or family/social commitments), but the conclusion will require some playtesting.

[-Enola-]

New quick proposition:

•Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves
Companion • Wizard
Strength 7  Vitality 4
Wise.
Each time you reconcile, you may add a doubt to draw 2 cards.
Skirmish: If you played at least 2 events this turn, play a card from your draw deck (limit once per turn).
"You do know my name... I am Gandalf."

[Legion]

Oh I really like that!

[-Enola-]

After a quick test, the last Gandalf was a bit hard to play. This one will be simpler


•Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves
Companion • Wizard
Strength 7  Vitality 4
Wise.
Each time you reconcile, you may add a doubt to draw 2 cards.
Skirmish: Play a skirmish event and add a doubt to play a companion or a skirmish event from your draw deck.
"You do know my name... I am Gandalf."