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Author Topic: New Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves for the Hobbit Draft Game  (Read 16075 times)

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February 10, 2018, 07:16:32 PM
Reply #30

Durin's Heir

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Re: New Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2018, 07:16:32 PM »
With only 2 [Gandalf] skirmish events in the whole Main Deck, this skill will work wonders in Gemp (max 8 copies, + Beorn & the Eagles Are Coming) but not so in the Draft version (anywhere from 2 to 6 copies). Keep in mind he will have only 3 sites (2 to 4) to set up the Company before being discarded, so the chances of getting those events in time must be high. Balin can recycle them, but that's not enough. A cycling mechanism for the FP would help him to get them sooner, so I believe he should play "a Dwarf or a [Dwarven] skirmish event" so he can get Ori for that cycling task. Note that Ori would also synergize wonderfully with the Shadow cycling!

Balin will be busy recycling both the [Gandalf] events to pay the skill and the [Dwarven] ones to use later. He and Gandalf (Dawn Take You All) will often need Óin's help to keep their vitality up, which is another reason to broaden it to any "Dwarf". With such a great support from the Skirmish skill, and by playing those Dwarves during that phase providing choke, a small Company won't be so vulnerable at the early and middle game (Bilbo, Thorin, Gandalf and Balin) so focusing the effort on getting the followers + Balin before all other companions shouldn't be a peril.

A nice thing is that Sting will trigger with Dawn Take You All: you play it to kill/discard a minion skirmishing Bilbo, and before the skirmish ends due to that minion's absence, you play from deck any [Dwarven] event just to trigger the condition discard.


About Glamdring, I'm not sure... doesn't seem so worrisome to lose it due to the Skirmish skill, at least for fighting. But both the reconcile skill and the Skirmish set up skill will force you to add 2 doubts per turn very often, and the Skirmish one will be a strong need from site 2 to 4. If the doubts happen to be troublesome in playtesting, you might try to change one or the other skill to exert Gandalf instead of adding a doubt (preferrably NOT the skirmish one, or Dawn Take You All will cost 3 total exertions!). That would even turn Gandalf's discarding at 5 into something beneficial (by returning totally healed).
« Last Edit: February 10, 2018, 07:23:52 PM by Durin's Heir »
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February 11, 2018, 04:40:16 AM
Reply #31

Phallen Cassidy

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Re: New Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2018, 04:40:16 AM »
You can always wager that you can't afford to pay a doubt opt not to. Beefing up your shadow phase during your Free Peoples' turn is huge, and it shouldn't be a no-brainer.

February 11, 2018, 07:38:23 AM
Reply #32

-Enola-

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Re: New Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2018, 07:38:23 AM »
If I made no mistake, there is more than 85-90% chance to have a [Gandalf] skirmish event before site 4 (if you draw 4 cards each time you reconcile with a deck of 70 cards with only 4 [Gandalf] skirmish events).

In order to be coherent with the other Gandalf, we will only let Dwarf companions to be played from deck (and not Dwarven followers).

We made a quick test yesterday. This new Gandalf was really nice to play.




« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 07:48:50 AM by -Enola- »
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February 11, 2018, 02:20:05 PM
Reply #33

Durin's Heir

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Re: New Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2018, 02:20:05 PM »
If I made no mistake, there is more than 85-90% chance to have a [Gandalf] skirmish event before site 4 (if you draw 4 cards each time you reconcile with a deck of 70 cards with only 4 [Gandalf] skirmish events).
We're not understanding well each other... the old Leader of Dwarves played a Dwarf companion once per turn, that's up to 4 times (and often 4 times) before moving to site 5. And so does LotC. Any Skirmish phase skill will have 1 site less to work, which is fine (although will be able to use the skill more than once per turn, if no limit added). So I'm talking about using the skill 3 or 4 times before losing Gandalf at 5, not only once!

If we're talking about setting up the Company well before dissappearing, 1 or 2 uses of the set up skill are clearly insufficient. The other 3 Gandalfs don't have that problem: The Grey plays whenever and whatever he wants (as far as doubts aren't excessive), Friend of Thorin starts with 1 companion more (than the new LoD, and than The Grey) and cycles much better, and LotC plays 1 companion per turn like the old LoD (but doesn't get discarded).

In order to be coherent with the other Gandalf, we will only let Dwarf companions to be played from deck (and not Dwarven followers).
The Grey isn't coherent with the rest in that he's the only that can play artifacts. And the only who can also play companions from discard pile (and again, artifact too). In The Clouds Burst (Format #2), the artifact playing skill will save him all worries of being discarded at site 5, due to Narya.

This new Leader of Dwarves is in clear disadvantage, as he cannot play 3 or 4 Dwarf companions before site 5 as all the 4 other Gandalfs can (that is, the 3 other + the old LoD). So why not thinking outside of the box with followers? Besides, isn't he the "Leader of ALL Dwarves" in the Company?

We made a quick test yesterday. This new Gandalf was really nice to play.
I really believe he must be nice to play, and that's great if you ask me. But I also want him to be more stable, because a bad draft will really kill this new version most of the times. Unless he can get access to a good cycling mechanism (for the FP side).

I believe most of the new fun comes from the reconcile skill, and including Dwarf followers won't change that part at all. Moreover, being able to pull both Ori and Balin (without depending on Bilbo's Kitchen) will synergize marvelously with it! Even MORE fun!

Besides, you wanted to increase Ori's play and usefulness. This can be a good way to do so.


You can always wager that you can't afford to pay a doubt opt not to. Beefing up your shadow phase during your Free Peoples' turn is huge, and it shouldn't be a no-brainer.
Yeah, you're right. And this Gandalf will have the same doubt strain as The Grey, assuming that both use all their skills once per turn.

The only thing that worries me is that The Grey has easy access to Glamdring to keep doubts at bay, and can also replay it if needed. This new LoD will need to use Site 2 to get it (to the detriment of Orcrist and Sting), and will also use Glamdring's effect in max 3 sites before Mirkwood/Old Forest Road/Dol Guldur takes place... and that, assuming your opponent plays any minion (weak enough to lose vs Gandalf) in each of those sites.

Besides, playing no minions at Trollshaw Forest (ergo, no Maneuver phase) is evil!
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 03:13:37 PM by Durin's Heir »
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”  - Malcolm X

February 11, 2018, 09:49:50 PM
Reply #34

-Enola-

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Re: New Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2018, 09:49:50 PM »
The fun part is also playing [Dwarven] skirmish events from your draw deck...

If the setup is not good enough (but it didn't happen at all in our tests), Gandalf could cost (0) then.

Playing [Dwarven] followers from draw deck isn't a good idea, because it will make Bilbo's Kitchen less necessary to take in draft.
Hobbit Draft Game : http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr

February 12, 2018, 02:31:32 PM
Reply #35

Durin's Heir

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Re: New Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2018, 02:31:32 PM »
The fun part is also playing [Dwarven] skirmish events from your draw deck...
That's great. But that won't change by including followers. And as with the reconcile skill, having better cycling should enhance that [Dwarven] pump playing too. Mixing FP cycling with the new Shadow drawing will only increase the fun!

If the setup is not good enough (but it didn't happen at all in our tests)...
If you test it enough, the unstability of this new Gandalf will be evident. Test it with a full Draft procedure, with each opponent focused on removing every [Gandalf] pump from his reach. The less [Gandalf] events he has, the more randomness will have to carry (you said time ago that you don't want to increase randomness).

...Gandalf could cost (0) then.
That would help. But this Gandalf depends to some extent on Balin, and he cannot be played along with Thorin (without cost reduction). So while still useful, it's far from the ideal. The source of all unstability is the scarceness of available [Gandalf] skirmish events in Main Deck and Draft, so a way to fix that is including some few more events from another phase:

"Fellowship or Skirmish: Play a [Gandalf] skirmish event and add a doubt to play a Dwarf or a [Dwarven] skirmish event from your draw deck."

That'd include only AWINL (the sole [Gandalf] fellowship event in the whole game). So it'd play Dwarves too, but very differently from [Gandalf] pumps as it'd add twilight at the right time for the Shadow player to use (also, the Marauder would spot excessive companions/followers). Your smart doubt cost is still there preventing abuses. So would be 3 Main Deck events, which means 6 total copies in the Draft to pull. And so the scarceness is fixed.


Playing [Dwarven] followers from draw deck isn't a good idea, because it will make Bilbo's Kitchen less necessary to take in draft.
I disagree. No Main Deck card should depend on a card that only possibly will be get during the Draft. Also, by playing artifacts from deck, The Grey weakens the importance of other cards that need to be pulled from Draft (though those still provide usefulness, by diversifying the cost from doubts alone): Thráin, Thrór's Heirlooms, Dwarven Song, Underground Lake, Town Hall, the current Unveiling Moon Runes Secrets, and to some extent Old Thrush.

The same happens with both Sites 2; he can start 2nd and play The Troll Hoard as site 2 (to delay opponent there) and then double move from 1 to 3. And with Goblin Town / Underground Lake, so he can use Wooded Steep Cliff instead with much less problems to himself (to weaken Thorin, and potentially play Smaug).

Making him depend on Bilbo's Kitchen will bring more randomness. Also, he'll be busy enough in the Draft trying to get as many [Gandalf] skirmish events as possible, so forcing him to also focus on Bilbo's Kitchen creates a chance for the opponent to remove a [Gandalf] pump from his reach.

So let The Grey be the king of spells and fancy devices, while LoD can be the king of follower playing!
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”  - Malcolm X

February 13, 2018, 01:47:15 AM
Reply #36

-Enola-

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Re: New Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2018, 01:47:15 AM »
"Fellowship or Skirmish: Play a [Gandalf] skirmish event and add a doubt to play a Dwarf or a [Dwarven] skirmish event from your draw deck."

Complicated and with a fault..... new players will believe that we can play [Dwarven] skirmish events in fellowship phase....

We'll choose after some tests if Gandalf should cost (0).
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February 13, 2018, 01:16:42 PM
Reply #37

Durin's Heir

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Re: New Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2018, 01:16:42 PM »
Hmm, alright. By removing the "skirmish" word before the [Dwarven] culture symbol, the skill will be able to play both Skirmish and Fellowship [Dwarven] events. Which implies potentially playing TMOMK from deck.

"Fellowship or Skirmish: Play a [Gandalf] event and add a doubt to play a Dwarf or a [Dwarven] skirmish event from your draw deck."


New players will believe that we can play [Dwarven] skirmish events in fellowship phase....
Maybe. But anyway, they'll realize immediatly that playing them in Fellowship phase is totally useless. Except perhaps to filter them out (by paying the specific cost of playing AWINL + adding a doubt).
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 01:19:07 PM by Durin's Heir »
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”  - Malcolm X