Card Limits for The Hobbit Constructed Format

[Phallen Cassidy]

I think it'd be worthwhile to have a single place to discuss how to best adapt The Hobbit for constructed play on Gemp. Because the game is already balanced for the draft, changing cards is out of the question. Because of its origin The Hobbit is a great candidate for a new sealed league in the future, and it's possible and acceptable for constructed play to simply not work. Still, since many people are enjoying it as a constructed game and want it to be better, we should put forth a good effort to make it easy and enjoyable to play freely on Gemp.

The current solution, in place of changes or erratas, is to limit the quantity of cards allowed to emulate a draft. Every player is allowed one less than the number of copies of each card from each booster pack in draft play, and the same number of cards from the main deck as draft players. This means almost every card has a restriction, and there's not much of a pattern for players only familiar with The Hobbit through Gemp (most of us). There's no reason to think what we have now is the best it can be for constructed, but I wouldn't discount the usefulness of controlling exactly how many of some cards a player can have. As the R-list has shown, one copy of a key card is as good as banned for some strategies and having four copies may be too strong.

It's a relatively simple change, and we can make it as many times as we'd like keeping in mind the time that'll pass between resets. Nobody wants it to become unplayable for whoever long that may be. Be conscious of the impact any change in card quantity may have: having too many of some strong cards will greatly limit the number of strategies which can succeed and having too few of too many cards will greatly limit the number of possible strategies.

Currently unexplored is any other way to balance out the format without changing the text of the cards. We've already changed the rules by adding 2x and 3x card limits, why not look somewhere else? There are limits on what I can implement on my own for now, but there shouldn't be any limit on what you can suggest. Just remember that the constructed and draft games should still be the same game - these changes are only to account for the adaptation between draft and constructed. Banlists should probably also be considered, if there's only one or two cards which make having multiple copies of other cards problematic.

I have neither care nor concept for what will work better at the moment, so I invite anyone with an idea to debate it here.

[sgtdraino]

I have no problem with varying levels of card restrictions, but it would be nice if there was an indicator on each card that shows how many copies of it you can have for constructed play.

[Phallen Cassidy]

I have no problem with varying levels of card restrictions, but it would be nice if there was an indicator on each card that shows how many copies of it you can have for constructed play.

I think this would ease the confusion aspect, at least. The issue here would be the amount of work to add that to each individual card, especially given that the numbers could change. There is room on every card, however, where Decipher's collector information was. Something for Enola to consider.

[-Enola-]

I think this would ease the confusion aspect, at least. The issue here would be the amount of work to add that to each individual card, especially given that the numbers could change. There is room on every card, however, where Decipher's collector information was. Something for Enola to consider.

I use the space under printed cards to mark from which pack or deck they are. You can see that on cards from the download section.


It's a good idea to start a separate dialogue about balancing the constructed format of the Hobbit. The smallest R-list and X-list we could propose for the Short Rest are:

R-list
- Each companion (+restriction by name on Bilbo and Gandalf)
- An Acorn from Beorn's house
- Beorn
- Dwarven Axe   

X-list
- Eagles Are Coming   

[Durin's Heir]

I wouldn't X-list The Eagles Are Coming, only R-list it. It's far too important for the combo with Gwaihir, to use the Eagle's skill once again.

To balance The Grey, I'd limit Dawn Take You All to 2x.

[-Enola-]

Working only with R-list and X-list will be simpler.

[Dictionary]

- Gandalf, The Grey: Yes, Beorn makes him too powerful. But there's another card that turns this version into a killing machine: Dawn Take You All. Each other event makes The Grey assign 1 direct wound, but that spell does it thrice. So besides R-listing both Beorn and The Eagles Are Coming, might be good to limit Dawn Take You All to 2x only.

I haven't actually found Dawn Take you All very useful with The Grey. His power stems from a versatile ability with no cost, but DtyA gives it a cost, and an expensive one.

Between fighting, triggering Beorn, The Eagles are Coming and possibly Gandalf's Staff, he doesn't have much time to be exerting twice for an effect. He can wound a minion twice with 2 events anyway (And get cheaper reshuffles from Balin).

Of course this assumes that the tEaC + Beorn + His Wrath was Redoubled combo (5 wounds, one exertion) isn't hugely nerfed, which it may very well be.

[Phallen Cassidy]

I've seen it mentioned a few times that other expansions have other checks and balances to strategies. What about a "Hobbit Open" format of some sort, with all cards from any expansion legal? I know it's untested as of right now, but if the problem is lack of counters and lack of counters for counters, new cards should help, right? I don't know the next set of cards as well, so I'd be interested to hear what you think.

[-Enola-]

In an open format, Moria Swarm (Swarm Pack 1), the Azog Swarm (Swarm Pack 2) and Goblin Archers (Swarm Pack 3) could bring a terrible Shadow swarm.
Or you can mix Smaug corruption and Gollum corruption. This will be too strong.

[Phallen Cassidy]

Alright, so for now it looks like raising the card limit number to 4x for almost everything is what will be implemented next. Currently, companions will be R-listed along with Smaug, The One Ring, Bifur, Dori, Bombur, Beorn.

I want someone to sell me on why FP artifacts shouldn't be R-listed, because I'm certainly leaning towards that. The game offers plenty of opportunities to get rid of unwanted cards, so extra copies of cards like Glamdring/Wizard Staff can be easily sorted out if unwanted while making the main danger of losing Gandalf at site 5 (losing his stuff) disappear. The Shadow player has a hard enough time getting rid of those weapons (with the possible exception of William), and I don't like the idea of trivializing those efforts. But again, somebody change my mind. If the cost of putting extra cards in the deck is enough and the weapons aren't as hard to get rid of anymore, I'm open to multiple copies. For simplicities sake, I thought to include non-weapons The Arkenstone, Emeralds of Gorion, and Mithril Coat, though I'm a much easier sell for allowing 4x of these. I don't like the idea of 4x The Arkenstone, King's Jewel because of the cost to get rid of it for the Free Peoples.

I'm concerned about allowing 4x of any Shadow condition, but by allowing 4x of the many condition removal cards there's hope of balancing things out. Ancestral Knowledge is so easy for everyone to access and pull from the draw deck or retrieve from discard, I don't know if I'd like 4x of that one. R-list might be too harsh in a format with so many devastating conditions, but there are many alternatives as well. And frankly, does anyone like Secret Sentinels? I'd prefer 2x, but with the many conditions I understand there's a need for it. I would like to be told why I'm wrong, though. Between Bifur, Acorn, even Sting, it appears to me that there's plenty of opportunity to discard stuff without opening the gates on Ancestral Knowledge.

Currently, Dwarven Axe is going to end up as the only card limited to 2 copies. I don't like the idea of having such a decked out fellowship, and this will give us a chance to see what 4 copies might look like. I'm going to, at least temporarily, X-list The Eagles Are Coming (in part because it doesn't work properly in Gemp either way). If anyone objects, do speak up.

Other limited cards, especially unique minions, I'm not too concerned with. I had considered that 4 copies of The Great Barricade would be too much, but now I'm not so sure. Both sides will have easier access to their key cards. So, anybody else? Anything look worrisome?

[Dictionary]

If the idea is 4 copies of most things, then may as well go all out. Like you said, most things will balance each other out. Companions, Smaug etc. seem like good points.

Knowledge at least has a cost, more so than Acorn. It has an advantage being a maneuver, but spamming it will hurt against many shadows.

Dwarven Axe seems like a good one to limit; being non-unique means there's a huge difference between 1 copy and 4 copies, and it's in a format that, in my experience, already favours Fellowships over Shadows. Barricade should be fine though, it's unique and expensive to keep replaying.

I'm unhappy with X-Listing Eagles are Coming, if you do so how will you even know if it's fixed? Why not just R-list it?

[Phallen Cassidy]

I've made a request to update the format rules for The Hobbit. Currently, here's what we'll have...

R-list:
• Each companion
• Followers Bifur, Dori, Bombur, and Beorn
• The One Ring
• Smaug
• The Eagles Are Coming
• The Arkenstone, King's Jewel

2x of:
• Dwarven Axe


To reiterate, R-listing each companion is the best for the balance of the game - same with Smaug and The One Ring. We'll see how multiples for each artifact goes except for The Arkenstone, King's Jewel. With 4x Not At Home, there will already be opportunity to replay it without totally trivializing the 3 burden removal cost.

The Eagles Are Coming is bugged, and on top of that there's concern of it being OP if it works when combined with Beorn. I won't X-list it, but that should be considered once the card works as intended. Each of the followers on the R-list will retain their limits because of how strong they are compared with other followers. This is especially true for Beorn, who is nearly impossible to get rid of anyway, and the strongest Dwarven followers won't be as easily replayed without relying on existing tools.

To test how multiple copies of Dwarven Axe will play out, the legal copies are upped from 1 to 2. Dwarven Song can be used to pull both copies from the draw deck if needed, and this way we can see how placing an axe on a third-string Dwarf fighter impacts the game.


Note that these changes won't be live until the next server reset. I encourage anyone to pipe in with their thoughts or concerns so nothing major is overlooked and allows one or two deck types to overtake the format.

[Durin's Heir]

- Glamdring needs to be R-listed, otherwise losing it with Gandalf at site 5 won't be important with up to 3 replace copies. It's presence changes things a lot: gives strong doubt remotion + tanks Gandalf (relieving Thorin from doing that task alone). But Wizard Staff isn't as important, so 4x is fine. Actually works much better in the hands of Radagast to grab spells. Also, if Radagast bears it you can lose Gandalf at 5 and stop, and in next turn exert Radagast for a spell, recover Gandalf fully healed, and finally transfer the Staff to Gandalf! Then you preserve the Staff as aid for Gandalf, and you get a spell btw!


- The Eagles Are Coming synergizes with 3 cards. Gwaihir & Beorn: it can play them from deck, or from discard pile in the same turn they were discarded (Old Thrush can only at next turn); Gwaihir can also return from support area to cancel a 2nd skirmish, or to pump a companion. And His Wrath Was Redoubled: it can recover a Beorn just discarded to pay its cost.

So these are the differences between the current and the intended versions: current one will return Beorn to support area, whose only immediate usefulness is to burn him again with another copy of HWWR already in hand in the fierce assignment. But with the corrected version, 1) he'll return to pump a companion and boost him, bringing back the strong trick recycling, so 2) you can retrieve that exact same copy of HWWR to repeat at the fierce assignment. That combo is good, but you must remove every trace of non-fierce minions or they'll take those 3 wounds instead of the fierce ones you want to weaken/destroy, and that depends on the FP skirmishers winning their non-fierce fights. So isn't automatic.

TEAC's replaying of Beorn may seem powerful but is useful only if he gets discarded, which happens only if Yazneg/Smaug is used and Gandalf is exhausted/absent, if bearer is killed, or if HWWR burns him. So X-listing it seems totally unnecessary to me.


- Dwarven Axe should never be 1x only, with so many unleashed Shadow combos out there. In my opinion 2x is ok, but experience might even show us that it needs to be totally released. My point is that's much easier to discard (Smaug, Goblin Song, Ancestral Feuds at 5) than to recover (only Old Thrush, which can be blocked by Riddles in the Dark). Actually, Orcrist will be much easier to recover (Thorin + shuffling + a lucky draw, The Grey, another copy in The Arkenstone).


Listing those restrictions that exact way you just did (by card type) is much more intelligent than mixing all things and sorting by card title. Hope you can do that in the request for the Format Rules tab, it'd save players a lot headaches.

[Phallen Cassidy]

- Glamdring needs to be R-listed, otherwise losing it with Gandalf at site 5 won't be important with up to 3 replace copies. It's presence changes things a lot: gives strong doubt remotion + tanks Gandalf (relieving Thorin from doing that task alone). But Wizard Staff isn't as important, so 4x is fine. Actually works much better in the hands of Radagast to grab spells. Also, if Radagast bears it you can lose Gandalf at 5 and stop, and in next turn exert Radagast for a spell, recover Gandalf fully healed, and finally transfer the Staff to Gandalf! Then you preserve the Staff as aid for Gandalf, and you get a spell btw!

Glamdring joins The Arkenstone, King's Jewel on the R-list. Good call.

- Dwarven Axe should never be 1x only, with so many unleashed Shadow combos out there. In my opinion 2x is ok, but experience might even show us that it needs to be totally released. My point is that's much easier to discard (Smaug, Goblin Song, Ancestral Feuds at 5) than to recover (only Old Thrush, which can be blocked by Riddles in the Dark). Actually, Orcrist will be much easier to recover (Thorin + shuffling + a lucky draw, The Grey, another copy in The Arkenstone).

Hm. Very few strategies actually gain any strength, since most possessions were already abundant and replayable with Goblin Footman. An extra copy of Anger and two extra If He Loses isn't nothing, but as Dictionary noted Fellowships have plenty going for them too. Beatdown shadow sides typically just worry about Thorin and Gandalf, and an axe on anyone but perhaps Gloin won't make a difference for whether a companion will lose a skirmish. What the extra Dwarven Axe will really help against are swarms and particularly spiders, where another axe for the Damage+1 companions (Dwalin, Fili, and Gloin) can mean one fewer bug in the next skirmish phase. Further, I think it'd be easy for backup axes to become an armory, temporarily replacing Orcrist or the axe on your second best Dwarf. And every Shadow side would include Ancestral Feuds (and multiple copies), since its impact would be greater.

All that said, I don't mind spiders doing worse (though very few people have actually gone for swarms, as far as I've seen), the axes cost (1) so there's at least something for the Shadow player to gain if they're swapped around, and Ancestral Feuds is already incredibly powerful because it punishes a player for just playing allies, which can be near impossible to get rid of without Skilled Negotiator and a strong minion on the table. The extra axes would help by making Ancestral Feuds net -1 strength (until they get discarded), so every skirmish wouldn't have to be an overwhelm. I suppose I don't care as much anymore, but I'd lean towards seeing how 2 axes does.

Listing those restrictions that exact way you just did (by card type) is much more intelligent than mixing all things and sorting by card title. Hope you can do that in the request for the Format Rules tab, it'd save players a lot headaches.

The format rules for The Hobbit no longer contains nearly every card, so I don't think there's a reason to treat it any differently from any other format. It's manageable now.

[Durin's Heir]

The format rules for The Hobbit no longer contains nearly every card, so I don't think there's a reason to treat it any differently from any other format. It's manageable now.

But it can be simpler, and that's always better for the end user. Zuckerberg gained a lot by changing "thefacebook" to just "facebook". If you disagree, consider these 2 lesser changes at least: 1) sort by culture, and 2) trim out the subtitle for the Dwarf companions and Dwarf followers (since there isn't any alternative version and won't ever be). That'd make it much simpler.

Glamdring joins The Arkenstone, King's Jewel on the R-list. Good call.

Actually was you who noticed it, in the Gemp chat some weeks ago. Great.

I suppose I don't care as much anymore, but I'd lean towards seeing how 2 axes does.

We agree that 2 is a start, and will probably stay there. I'm just seeing another chance, and don't close the door to it.

Hm. Very few strategies actually gain any strength, since most possessions were already abundant and replayable with Goblin Footman...

4x Enchanted River will do marvels for Swarm shadows (just for 3 cards, better than Strange Device). Caught in a Sack can block the strongest Dwarf (or tax Bilbo heavily), for instance sacrifying a Runner/Sneak to increase everyone else's chances to get into Goblin Swarms. Wargs are already abundant for Gundabad, but Savage Warg will be +2x (the only one for Orcs and Bolg), as well as the mighty Troll Knife. So it's not only Anger and If He Loses.

What 4x for everything does for the Shadow is allowing the evil tide to be vomited much more often and steadily, which wears off the Company.

...and Ancestral Feuds is already incredibly powerful because it punishes a player for just playing allies, which can be near impossible to get rid of without Skilled Negotiator and a strong minion on the table. The extra axes would help by making Ancestral Feuds net -1 strength (until they get discarded), so every skirmish wouldn't have to be an overwhelm.

Yeah, the support is so tempting that Ancestral Feuds will be huge very often. And anyways, players will always have Elrond so it's never useless if you got the twilight (and many tricks will provide it).

[Durin's Heir]

I think we're forgetting about An Acorn of Beorn's House. Given its anti-condition power, it might be better off at 2x only, like the Axe.

[Deckhunter]

I agree, the acorn should be 2x. It's still powerful since it removes a burden, but the ability to discard four conditions then retrieve it with the thrush another four times, that's the kind of thing that makes shadow players very frustrated when they rely on those conditions. At 2x it's not entirely nerfed, and it's still enough of an incentive to retrieve via the thrush, but it doesn't entirely break shadows that need their conditions for more than a turn to work.

[Phallen Cassidy]

But it can be simpler, and that's always better for the end user. Zuckerberg gained a lot by changing "thefacebook" to just "facebook". If you disagree, consider these 2 lesser changes at least: 1) sort by culture, and 2) trim out the subtitle for the Dwarf companions and Dwarf followers (since there isn't any alternative version and won't ever be). That'd make it much simpler.

It's already sorted by culture, and trimming the subtitles would require me to either rename the cards and give them additional properties for the searchable text of their subtitles or rework how Gemp generates the X-/R-lists. Perhaps as we get towards a final product I'll reorder things, but right now sorting by culture and then alphabetically makes things much easier on me when I edit the restrictions.

4x Enchanted River will do marvels for Swarm shadows (just for 3 cards, better than Strange Device). Caught in a Sack can block the strongest Dwarf (or tax Bilbo heavily), for instance sacrifying a Runner/Sneak to increase everyone else's chances to get into Goblin Swarms. Wargs are already abundant for Gundabad, but Savage Warg will be +2x (the only one for Orcs and Bolg), as well as the mighty Troll Knife. So it's not only Anger and If He Loses.

What 4x for everything does for the Shadow is allowing the evil tide to be vomited much more often and steadily, which wears off the Company.

Those changes increase the consistency of every shadow strategy, but not their strength. The Free Peoples already has to plan to face armed Trolls, Wargs, Smaug, etc., and each of the conditions you mentioned are sure targets for the powerful Free Peoples condition hate. A bigger swarm will be much more harrowing for Bilbo than for some second-rate Dwarf. Each strategy is more potent, of course, but there's not a considerable strength gain.

I think we're forgetting about An Acorn of Beorn's House. Given its anti-condition power, it might be better off at 2x only, like the Axe.

Acorn seems far weaker than Ancestral Knowledge. Yes, the latter costs a Dwarven exertion and can be hit by The Great Goblin (not an issue, since the Free Peoples will always strike first), but it removes most conditions before they can do much harm. It can also be immediately used once retrieved by Old Thrush, rather than waiting a turn and holding it. It also takes more conditions per use against the condition-heavy decks you're talking about. In fact, Acorn really shines when it mops up after Ancestral Knowledge takes out several of their most integral cards. It seems to be simply part of the meta - why limit Acorn and not Ancestral Knowledge? Removing 4 conditions in one turn is much more likely for AK, and the exertion isn't anything I've seen any player fret about since there are no wounding decks.

Remember, too, that Acorn has a viable counter - Riddles in the Dark. Players will have to rely on Bifur/Ancestral Knowledge as long as it's around. I'm just having trouble seeing where Acorn is stronger than Ancestral Knowledge, except for burden removal.

[Durin's Heir]

It's already sorted by culture, and trimming the subtitles would require me to either rename the cards and give them additional properties for the searchable text of their subtitles or rework how Gemp generates the X-/R-lists. Perhaps as we get towards a final product I'll reorder things, but right now sorting by culture and then alphabetically makes things much easier on me when I edit the restrictions.

Alright, by culture is ok, the list is short enough now. Changing how Gemp creates those lists will require a lot of additional work, and it's better to focus on more important matters like current bugs. Don't trim the subtitles, they're useful for search purposes in the Deckbuiler.

Those changes increase the consistency of every shadow strategy, but not their strength. The Free Peoples already has to plan to face armed Trolls, Wargs, Smaug, etc., and each of the conditions you mentioned are sure targets for the powerful Free Peoples condition hate. A bigger swarm will be much more harrowing for Bilbo than for some second-rate Dwarf. Each strategy is more potent, of course, but there's not a considerable strength gain.

A minion gains strength when another minion joins his skirmish. If Bilbo can't be overwhelmed if not tripled (bears Dori, or is Reliable Companion and faces Gollum), the additional minion will be much better killing a support Dwarf than securing that single wound on Bilbo. If are Orcs, more will go to Goblin Swarms; if are Spiders, less defenders will be available for the fierce fight.

Also, there's a relative strength gain when William is persistently cutting the supply line of followers. Or if Ancestral Feuds is frequently making a Dwarf strength -3. Add to the mix more copies of If He Loses, Anger, Savage Warg and Troll Knife, and you'll see minions will be much stronger than what the current restrictions allow them to be. Then, I see the chance that 2 Axes are to few, just a chance.

4x Enchanted River will not only help Spiders/Goblins, but Trolls too, since are intensive in hand discard (with enough twilight, 11 cards will allow you much more Troll power than 8 cards in hand, so all 3 Stooges in play with many Knives will be much more viable).

Acorn seems far weaker than Ancestral Knowledge... I'm just having trouble seeing where Acorn is stronger than Ancestral Knowledge, except for burden removal.

Yeah, you're right, 4x AK is stronger. Acorn has 2 advantages over AK, and the biggest is not the doubt removal but that can be borne. Still, Have Patience (costlier, clogs hand) is better than Athelas (cheaper, more versatile, bearable), so AK should get the "limit 2x" instead. It's just that 4x of both will make this format a Negative Play Experience to many shadow strategies, we must cut one or the other... this format is special in the sense that has the Acorn (the only non Main Deck anti-condition card in the whole game) and at least one heavy condition-dependant Shadow (Moria Swarm). So ok to max 2x Ancestral Knowledge.

Remember, too, that Acorn has a viable counter - Riddles in the Dark. Players will have to rely on Bifur/Ancestral Knowledge as long as it's around.

Not true. Riddles can block Old Thrush, and the Thrush is much better supporting AK than the Acorn. But since the Acorn doesn't exert Bilbo it can't be stopped by Riddles, though can be discarded by it (if you prefer that to getting rid of The One Ring or Sting). Riddles + Caught in a Sack can often force the exertion, but that's a 2-conditions combo, with the vulnerabilities it means.

[-Enola-]

Sorry for this long delay, I was very busy these last days.

Eagles Are Coming could make a very fast set up with Beorn:
The Grey -> Wizard Staff -> (next site) The Eagles Are Coming -> Beorn from draw deck
And you can easily take back The Eagles Are Coming with Beorn (in case Beorn could be discarded during the next site).


If I sum up the last posts:

R-list:
• Each companion
• Bifur, Dori, Bombur, and Beorn
• The One Ring
• Glamdring
• Smaug
• The Eagles Are Coming
• The Arkenstone, King's Jewel

2x of:
• Dwarven Axe
• An Acorn of Beorn's House
• Ancestral Knowledge

Dwarven Axes are very strong in the draft game, I recommend to R-list them (followers makes the Dwarves strong enough).

[Phallen Cassidy]

An Acorn of Beorn's House is still fully legal at the moment. If the big concern is mass condition discard, Ancestral Knowledge simply does it better and more reliably. I didn't see the need to limit them both.

[-Enola-]

An Acorn of Beorn's House will discard any condition when it appears, it doesn't clog the hand as a maneuver event. Maybe only put on the R-list the Acorn?

[Phallen Cassidy]

An Acorn of Beorn's House will discard any condition when it appears, it doesn't clog the hand as a maneuver event. Maybe only put on the R-list the Acorn?

So why Acorn, and not Ancestral Knowledge? Acorn still seems far weaker to me.

[-Enola-]

Because you don't have to keep it in the hand and wait when the key Shadow condition will appear. The fear of Ancestral Knowledge is enough, players play max 3 conditions, except for the Moria Swarm and Mirkwood Shadow (Beatdown Pack 3).

[Phallen Cassidy]

Because you don't have to keep it in the hand and wait when the key Shadow condition will appear. The fear of Ancestral Knowledge is enough, players play max 3 conditions, except for the Moria Swarm and Mirkwood Shadow (Beatdown Pack 3).

I don't buy this. First off, key Shadow conditions will appear as available, just like Ancestral Knowledge. If they're key then they'll be there very quickly if we allow up to 4 copies (even if most players only play 2 or 3). It's easily replayed when needed with Old Thrush or can be saved on The Arkenstone (or later in the game shuffled into the deck with Balin), and when unneeded it can be discarded by Ori or Oin. I've had several games where I could simply discard An Acorn using Riddles in the Dark (and/or make my next turn a breeze), and I once took out a player's second copy with Smaug. You can never do that with Ancestral Knowledge, unless a FP has two and you take out one with The Great Goblin. Ancestral Knowledge also discards many conditions before a Shadow Player has the opportunity to do anything with them, where An Acorn gives that player a turn to do damage.

Now, if you're arguing that limiting Ancestral Knowledge removes the threat and allows players to risk playing more conditions, that makes more sense to me (though I wouldn't agree) - saying that Ancestral Knowledge being available is what makes An Acorn strong. But if we're talking about limiting the most powerful FP condition removal, I don't see how An Acorn has anywhere near the potential of Ancestral Knowledge.

[-Enola-]

Right, but the costs are also different. An exert on a Dwarf character is not an easy cost. Moreover, the doubt removing from the Acorn will be too strong if we allow it 4x. I'm ok with the 2x and 2x solution.