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Author Topic: Card Limits for The Hobbit Constructed Format  (Read 10784 times)

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December 19, 2017, 03:16:41 PM
Reply #15

Durin's Heir

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Re: Card Limits for The Hobbit Constructed Format
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2017, 03:16:41 PM »
I think we're forgetting about An Acorn of Beorn's House. Given its anti-condition power, it might be better off at 2x only, like the Axe.
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December 19, 2017, 04:45:33 PM
Reply #16

Deckhunter

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Re: Card Limits for The Hobbit Constructed Format
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2017, 04:45:33 PM »
I agree, the acorn should be 2x. It's still powerful since it removes a burden, but the ability to discard four conditions then retrieve it with the thrush another four times, that's the kind of thing that makes shadow players very frustrated when they rely on those conditions. At 2x it's not entirely nerfed, and it's still enough of an incentive to retrieve via the thrush, but it doesn't entirely break shadows that need their conditions for more than a turn to work.

December 19, 2017, 06:19:01 PM
Reply #17

Phallen Cassidy

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Re: Card Limits for The Hobbit Constructed Format
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2017, 06:19:01 PM »
But it can be simpler, and that's always better for the end user. Zuckerberg gained a lot by changing "thefacebook" to just "facebook". If you disagree, consider these 2 lesser changes at least: 1) sort by culture, and 2) trim out the subtitle for the Dwarf companions and Dwarf followers (since there isn't any alternative version and won't ever be). That'd make it much simpler.

It's already sorted by culture, and trimming the subtitles would require me to either rename the cards and give them additional properties for the searchable text of their subtitles or rework how Gemp generates the X-/R-lists. Perhaps as we get towards a final product I'll reorder things, but right now sorting by culture and then alphabetically makes things much easier on me when I edit the restrictions.

4x Enchanted River will do marvels for Swarm shadows (just [2] for 3 cards, better than Strange Device). Caught in a Sack can block the strongest Dwarf (or tax Bilbo heavily), for instance sacrifying a Runner/Sneak to increase everyone else's chances to get into Goblin Swarms. Wargs are already abundant for Gundabad, but Savage Warg will be +2x (the only one for [Moria] Orcs and [Sauron] Bolg), as well as the mighty Troll Knife. So it's not only Anger and If He Loses.

What 4x for everything does for the Shadow is allowing the evil tide to be vomited much more often and steadily, which wears off the Company.

Those changes increase the consistency of every shadow strategy, but not their strength. The Free Peoples already has to plan to face armed Trolls, Wargs, Smaug, etc., and each of the conditions you mentioned are sure targets for the powerful Free Peoples condition hate. A bigger swarm will be much more harrowing for Bilbo than for some second-rate Dwarf. Each strategy is more potent, of course, but there's not a considerable strength gain.

I think we're forgetting about An Acorn of Beorn's House. Given its anti-condition power, it might be better off at 2x only, like the Axe.

Acorn seems far weaker than Ancestral Knowledge. Yes, the latter costs a Dwarven exertion and can be hit by The Great Goblin (not an issue, since the Free Peoples will always strike first), but it removes most conditions before they can do much harm. It can also be immediately used once retrieved by Old Thrush, rather than waiting a turn and holding it. It also takes more conditions per use against the condition-heavy decks you're talking about. In fact, Acorn really shines when it mops up after Ancestral Knowledge takes out several of their most integral cards. It seems to be simply part of the meta - why limit Acorn and not Ancestral Knowledge? Removing 4 conditions in one turn is much more likely for AK, and the exertion isn't anything I've seen any player fret about since there are no wounding decks.

Remember, too, that Acorn has a viable counter - Riddles in the Dark. Players will have to rely on Bifur/Ancestral Knowledge as long as it's around. I'm just having trouble seeing where Acorn is stronger than Ancestral Knowledge, except for burden removal.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 06:53:11 PM by Phallen Cassidy »

December 21, 2017, 11:52:03 AM
Reply #18

Durin's Heir

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Re: Card Limits for The Hobbit Constructed Format
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2017, 11:52:03 AM »
It's already sorted by culture, and trimming the subtitles would require me to either rename the cards and give them additional properties for the searchable text of their subtitles or rework how Gemp generates the X-/R-lists. Perhaps as we get towards a final product I'll reorder things, but right now sorting by culture and then alphabetically makes things much easier on me when I edit the restrictions.
Alright, by culture is ok, the list is short enough now. Changing how Gemp creates those lists will require a lot of additional work, and it's better to focus on more important matters like current bugs. Don't trim the subtitles, they're useful for search purposes in the Deckbuiler.


Those changes increase the consistency of every shadow strategy, but not their strength. The Free Peoples already has to plan to face armed Trolls, Wargs, Smaug, etc., and each of the conditions you mentioned are sure targets for the powerful Free Peoples condition hate. A bigger swarm will be much more harrowing for Bilbo than for some second-rate Dwarf. Each strategy is more potent, of course, but there's not a considerable strength gain.
A minion gains strength when another minion joins his skirmish. If Bilbo can't be overwhelmed if not tripled (bears Dori, or is Reliable Companion and faces Gollum), the additional minion will be much better killing a support Dwarf than securing that single wound on Bilbo. If are Orcs, more will go to Goblin Swarms; if are Spiders, less defenders will be available for the fierce fight.

Also, there's a relative strength gain when William is persistently cutting the supply line of followers. Or if Ancestral Feuds is frequently making a Dwarf strength -3. Add to the mix more copies of If He Loses, Anger, Savage Warg and Troll Knife, and you'll see minions will be much stronger than what the current restrictions allow them to be. Then, I see the chance that 2 Axes are to few, just a chance.

4x Enchanted River will not only help Spiders/Goblins, but Trolls too, since are intensive in hand discard (with enough twilight, 11 cards will allow you much more Troll power than 8 cards in hand, so all 3 Stooges in play with many Knives will be much more viable).


Acorn seems far weaker than Ancestral Knowledge... I'm just having trouble seeing where Acorn is stronger than Ancestral Knowledge, except for burden removal.
Yeah, you're right, 4x AK is stronger. Acorn has 2 advantages over AK, and the biggest is not the doubt removal but that can be borne. Still, Have Patience (costlier, clogs hand) is better than Athelas (cheaper, more versatile, bearable), so AK should get the "limit 2x" instead. It's just that 4x of both will make this format a Negative Play Experience to many shadow strategies, we must cut one or the other... this format is special in the sense that has the Acorn (the only non Main Deck anti-condition card in the whole game) and at least one heavy condition-dependant Shadow (Moria Swarm). So ok to max 2x Ancestral Knowledge.


Remember, too, that Acorn has a viable counter - Riddles in the Dark. Players will have to rely on Bifur/Ancestral Knowledge as long as it's around.
Not true. Riddles can block Old Thrush, and the Thrush is much better supporting AK than the Acorn. But since the Acorn doesn't exert Bilbo it can't be stopped by Riddles, though can be discarded by it (if you prefer that to getting rid of The One Ring or Sting). Riddles + Caught in a Sack can often force the exertion, but that's a 2-conditions combo, with the vulnerabilities it means.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 11:57:20 AM by Durin's Heir »
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”  - Malcolm X

December 23, 2017, 02:57:24 PM
Reply #19

-Enola-

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Re: Card Limits for The Hobbit Constructed Format
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2017, 02:57:24 PM »
Sorry for this long delay, I was very busy these last days.

Eagles Are Coming could make a very fast set up with Beorn:
The Grey -> Wizard Staff -> (next site) The Eagles Are Coming -> Beorn from draw deck
And you can easily take back The Eagles Are Coming with Beorn (in case Beorn could be discarded during the next site).


If I sum up the last posts:

R-list:
• Each companion
• Bifur, Dori, Bombur, and Beorn
• The One Ring
Glamdring
• Smaug
• The Eagles Are Coming
• The Arkenstone, King's Jewel

2x of:
Dwarven Axe
• An Acorn of Beorn's House
• Ancestral Knowledge

Dwarven Axes are very strong in the draft game, I recommend to R-list them (followers makes the Dwarves strong enough).
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 03:10:35 PM by -Enola- »
Hobbit Draft Game : http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr

December 23, 2017, 04:00:50 PM
Reply #20

Phallen Cassidy

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Re: Card Limits for The Hobbit Constructed Format
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2017, 04:00:50 PM »
An Acorn of Beorn's House is still fully legal at the moment. If the big concern is mass condition discard, Ancestral Knowledge simply does it better and more reliably. I didn't see the need to limit them both.

December 27, 2017, 03:19:00 PM
Reply #21

-Enola-

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Re: Card Limits for The Hobbit Constructed Format
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2017, 03:19:00 PM »
An Acorn of Beorn's House will discard any condition when it appears, it doesn't clog the hand as a maneuver event. Maybe only put on the R-list the Acorn?
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December 27, 2017, 05:06:36 PM
Reply #22

Phallen Cassidy

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Re: Card Limits for The Hobbit Constructed Format
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2017, 05:06:36 PM »
An Acorn of Beorn's House will discard any condition when it appears, it doesn't clog the hand as a maneuver event. Maybe only put on the R-list the Acorn?

So why Acorn, and not Ancestral Knowledge? Acorn still seems far weaker to me.

December 28, 2017, 12:15:18 AM
Reply #23

-Enola-

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Re: Card Limits for The Hobbit Constructed Format
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2017, 12:15:18 AM »
Because you don't have to keep it in the hand and wait when the key Shadow condition will appear. The fear of Ancestral Knowledge is enough, players play max 3 conditions, except for the Moria Swarm and Mirkwood Shadow (Beatdown Pack 3).
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December 28, 2017, 05:42:42 AM
Reply #24

Phallen Cassidy

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Re: Card Limits for The Hobbit Constructed Format
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2017, 05:42:42 AM »
Because you don't have to keep it in the hand and wait when the key Shadow condition will appear. The fear of Ancestral Knowledge is enough, players play max 3 conditions, except for the Moria Swarm and Mirkwood Shadow (Beatdown Pack 3).

I don't buy this. First off, key Shadow conditions will appear as available, just like Ancestral Knowledge. If they're key then they'll be there very quickly if we allow up to 4 copies (even if most players only play 2 or 3). It's easily replayed when needed with Old Thrush or can be saved on The Arkenstone (or later in the game shuffled into the deck with Balin), and when unneeded it can be discarded by Ori or Oin. I've had several games where I could simply discard An Acorn using Riddles in the Dark (and/or make my next turn a breeze), and I once took out a player's second copy with Smaug. You can never do that with Ancestral Knowledge, unless a FP has two and you take out one with The Great Goblin. Ancestral Knowledge also discards many conditions before a Shadow Player has the opportunity to do anything with them, where An Acorn gives that player a turn to do damage.

Now, if you're arguing that limiting Ancestral Knowledge removes the threat and allows players to risk playing more conditions, that makes more sense to me (though I wouldn't agree) - saying that Ancestral Knowledge being available is what makes An Acorn strong. But if we're talking about limiting the most powerful FP condition removal, I don't see how An Acorn has anywhere near the potential of Ancestral Knowledge.

December 28, 2017, 02:38:30 PM
Reply #25

-Enola-

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Re: Card Limits for The Hobbit Constructed Format
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2017, 02:38:30 PM »
Right, but the costs are also different. An exert on a Dwarf character is not an easy cost. Moreover, the doubt removing from the Acorn will be too strong if we allow it 4x. I'm ok with the 2x and 2x solution.
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