LotR TCG Wiki → Card Sets:  All 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 → Forums:  TLHH CC

Author Topic: Card Limits for The Hobbit Constructed Format  (Read 10785 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

December 01, 2017, 01:55:23 PM
Read 10785 times

Phallen Cassidy

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Bowman
  • Posts: 493
Card Limits for The Hobbit Constructed Format
« on: December 01, 2017, 01:55:23 PM »
I think it'd be worthwhile to have a single place to discuss how to best adapt The Hobbit for constructed play on Gemp. Because the game is already balanced for the draft, changing cards is out of the question. Because of its origin The Hobbit is a great candidate for a new sealed league in the future, and it's possible and acceptable for constructed play to simply not work. Still, since many people are enjoying it as a constructed game and want it to be better, we should put forth a good effort to make it easy and enjoyable to play freely on Gemp.

The current solution, in place of changes or erratas, is to limit the quantity of cards allowed to emulate a draft. Every player is allowed one less than the number of copies of each card from each booster pack in draft play, and the same number of cards from the main deck as draft players. This means almost every card has a restriction, and there's not much of a pattern for players only familiar with The Hobbit through Gemp (most of us). There's no reason to think what we have now is the best it can be for constructed, but I wouldn't discount the usefulness of controlling exactly how many of some cards a player can have. As the R-list has shown, one copy of a key card is as good as banned for some strategies and having four copies may be too strong.

It's a relatively simple change, and we can make it as many times as we'd like keeping in mind the time that'll pass between resets. Nobody wants it to become unplayable for whoever long that may be. Be conscious of the impact any change in card quantity may have: having too many of some strong cards will greatly limit the number of strategies which can succeed and having too few of too many cards will greatly limit the number of possible strategies.

Currently unexplored is any other way to balance out the format without changing the text of the cards. We've already changed the rules by adding 2x and 3x card limits, why not look somewhere else? There are limits on what I can implement on my own for now, but there shouldn't be any limit on what you can suggest. Just remember that the constructed and draft games should still be the same game - these changes are only to account for the adaptation between draft and constructed. Banlists should probably also be considered, if there's only one or two cards which make having multiple copies of other cards problematic.

I have neither care nor concept for what will work better at the moment, so I invite anyone with an idea to debate it here.

December 01, 2017, 03:28:09 PM
Reply #1

sgtdraino

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Knight
  • Posts: 1038
  • Ranger of Ecthelion
    • Facebook
Re: Card Limits for The Hobbit Constructed Format
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2017, 03:28:09 PM »
I have no problem with varying levels of card restrictions, but it would be nice if there was an indicator on each card that shows how many copies of it you can have for constructed play.
"I would have followed you, my brother... my captain... my king." - Boromir

December 01, 2017, 03:38:34 PM
Reply #2

Phallen Cassidy

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Bowman
  • Posts: 493
Re: Card Limits for The Hobbit Constructed Format
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2017, 03:38:34 PM »
I have no problem with varying levels of card restrictions, but it would be nice if there was an indicator on each card that shows how many copies of it you can have for constructed play.

I think this would ease the confusion aspect, at least. The issue here would be the amount of work to add that to each individual card, especially given that the numbers could change. There is room on every card, however, where Decipher's collector information was. Something for Enola to consider.

December 02, 2017, 06:11:59 AM
Reply #3

-Enola-

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Posts: 588
Re: Card Limits for The Hobbit Constructed Format
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2017, 06:11:59 AM »
I think this would ease the confusion aspect, at least. The issue here would be the amount of work to add that to each individual card, especially given that the numbers could change. There is room on every card, however, where Decipher's collector information was. Something for Enola to consider.

I use the space under printed cards to mark from which pack or deck they are. You can see that on cards from the download section.


It's a good idea to start a separate dialogue about balancing the constructed format of the Hobbit. The smallest R-list and X-list we could propose for the Short Rest are:

R-list
- Each companion (+restriction by name on Bilbo and Gandalf)
- An Acorn from Beorn's house
- Beorn
- Dwarven Axe   

X-list
- Eagles Are Coming   
« Last Edit: December 02, 2017, 06:13:33 AM by -Enola- »
Hobbit Draft Game : http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr

December 02, 2017, 10:55:59 AM
Reply #4

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 863
  • Alex Jones was right
Re: Card Limits for The Hobbit Constructed Format
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2017, 10:55:59 AM »
I wouldn't X-list The Eagles Are Coming, only R-list it. It's far too important for the combo with Gwaihir, to use the Eagle's skill once again.

To balance The Grey, I'd limit Dawn Take You All to 2x.
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”  - Malcolm X

December 02, 2017, 11:35:14 AM
Reply #5

-Enola-

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Posts: 588
Re: Card Limits for The Hobbit Constructed Format
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2017, 11:35:14 AM »
Working only with R-list and X-list will be simpler.
Hobbit Draft Game : http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr

December 02, 2017, 02:43:29 PM
Reply #6

Dictionary

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Posts: 526
  • Duplicitous Deckbuilder
Re: Card Limits for The Hobbit Constructed Format
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2017, 02:43:29 PM »
- Gandalf, The Grey: Yes, Beorn makes him too powerful. But there's another card that turns this version into a killing machine: Dawn Take You All. Each other [Gandalf] event makes The Grey assign 1 direct wound, but that spell does it thrice. So besides R-listing both Beorn and The Eagles Are Coming, might be good to limit Dawn Take You All to 2x only.
I haven't actually found Dawn Take you All very useful with The Grey. His power stems from a versatile ability with no cost, but DtyA gives it a cost, and an expensive one.

Between fighting, triggering Beorn, The Eagles are Coming and possibly Gandalf's Staff, he doesn't have much time to be exerting twice for an effect. He can wound a minion twice with 2 [Gandalf] events anyway (And get cheaper reshuffles from Balin).

Of course this assumes that the tEaC + Beorn + His Wrath was Redoubled combo (5 wounds, one exertion) isn't hugely nerfed, which it may very well be.
Visit LOTR TCG wiki for strategy articles and extra card details, contributed by various community members. All set 1 cards finished.

December 02, 2017, 06:06:39 PM
Reply #7

Phallen Cassidy

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Bowman
  • Posts: 493
Re: Card Limits for The Hobbit Constructed Format
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2017, 06:06:39 PM »
I've seen it mentioned a few times that other expansions have other checks and balances to strategies. What about a "Hobbit Open" format of some sort, with all cards from any expansion legal? I know it's untested as of right now, but if the problem is lack of counters and lack of counters for counters, new cards should help, right? I don't know the next set of cards as well, so I'd be interested to hear what you think.

December 03, 2017, 11:30:28 AM
Reply #8

-Enola-

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Posts: 588
Re: Card Limits for The Hobbit Constructed Format
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2017, 11:30:28 AM »
In an open format, Moria Swarm (Swarm Pack 1), the Azog Swarm (Swarm Pack 2) and Goblin Archers (Swarm Pack 3) could bring a terrible Shadow swarm.
Or you can mix Smaug corruption and Gollum corruption. This will be too strong.
Hobbit Draft Game : http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr

December 10, 2017, 10:47:38 AM
Reply #9

Phallen Cassidy

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Bowman
  • Posts: 493
Re: Card Limits for The Hobbit Constructed Format
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2017, 10:47:38 AM »
Alright, so for now it looks like raising the card limit number to 4x for almost everything is what will be implemented next. Currently, companions will be R-listed along with Smaug, The One Ring, Bifur, Dori, Bombur, Beorn.

I want someone to sell me on why FP artifacts shouldn't be R-listed, because I'm certainly leaning towards that. The game offers plenty of opportunities to get rid of unwanted cards, so extra copies of cards like Glamdring/Wizard Staff can be easily sorted out if unwanted while making the main danger of losing Gandalf at site 5 (losing his stuff) disappear. The Shadow player has a hard enough time getting rid of those weapons (with the possible exception of William), and I don't like the idea of trivializing those efforts. But again, somebody change my mind. If the cost of putting extra cards in the deck is enough and the weapons aren't as hard to get rid of anymore, I'm open to multiple copies. For simplicities sake, I thought to include non-weapons The Arkenstone, Emeralds of Gorion, and Mithril Coat, though I'm a much easier sell for allowing 4x of these. I don't like the idea of 4x The Arkenstone, King's Jewel because of the cost to get rid of it for the Free Peoples.

I'm concerned about allowing 4x of any Shadow condition, but by allowing 4x of the many condition removal cards there's hope of balancing things out. Ancestral Knowledge is so easy for everyone to access and pull from the draw deck or retrieve from discard, I don't know if I'd like 4x of that one. R-list might be too harsh in a format with so many devastating conditions, but there are many alternatives as well. And frankly, does anyone like Secret Sentinels? I'd prefer 2x, but with the many conditions I understand there's a need for it. I would like to be told why I'm wrong, though. Between Bifur, Acorn, even Sting, it appears to me that there's plenty of opportunity to discard stuff without opening the gates on Ancestral Knowledge.

Currently, Dwarven Axe is going to end up as the only card limited to 2 copies. I don't like the idea of having such a decked out fellowship, and this will give us a chance to see what 4 copies might look like. I'm going to, at least temporarily, X-list The Eagles Are Coming (in part because it doesn't work properly in Gemp either way). If anyone objects, do speak up.

Other limited cards, especially unique minions, I'm not too concerned with. I had considered that 4 copies of The Great Barricade would be too much, but now I'm not so sure. Both sides will have easier access to their key cards. So, anybody else? Anything look worrisome?

December 10, 2017, 05:04:07 PM
Reply #10

Dictionary

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Posts: 526
  • Duplicitous Deckbuilder
Re: Card Limits for The Hobbit Constructed Format
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2017, 05:04:07 PM »
If the idea is 4 copies of most things, then may as well go all out. Like you said, most things will balance each other out. Companions, Smaug etc. seem like good points.

Knowledge at least has a cost, more so than Acorn. It has an advantage being a maneuver, but spamming it will hurt against many shadows.

Dwarven Axe seems like a good one to limit; being non-unique means there's a huge difference between 1 copy and 4 copies, and it's in a format that, in my experience, already favours Fellowships over Shadows. Barricade should be fine though, it's unique and expensive to keep replaying.

I'm unhappy with X-Listing Eagles are Coming, if you do so how will you even know if it's fixed? Why not just R-list it?
Visit LOTR TCG wiki for strategy articles and extra card details, contributed by various community members. All set 1 cards finished.

December 16, 2017, 08:24:59 AM
Reply #11

Phallen Cassidy

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Bowman
  • Posts: 493
Re: Card Limits for The Hobbit Constructed Format
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2017, 08:24:59 AM »
I've made a request to update the format rules for The Hobbit. Currently, here's what we'll have...

R-list:
• Each companion
• Followers Bifur, Dori, Bombur, and Beorn
• The One Ring
• Smaug
• The Eagles Are Coming
• The Arkenstone, King's Jewel

2x of:
Dwarven Axe


To reiterate, R-listing each companion is the best for the balance of the game - same with Smaug and The One Ring. We'll see how multiples for each artifact goes except for The Arkenstone, King's Jewel. With 4x Not At Home, there will already be opportunity to replay it without totally trivializing the 3 burden removal cost.

The Eagles Are Coming is bugged, and on top of that there's concern of it being OP if it works when combined with Beorn. I won't X-list it, but that should be considered once the card works as intended. Each of the followers on the R-list will retain their limits because of how strong they are compared with other followers. This is especially true for Beorn, who is nearly impossible to get rid of anyway, and the strongest Dwarven followers won't be as easily replayed without relying on existing tools.

To test how multiple copies of Dwarven Axe will play out, the legal copies are upped from 1 to 2. Dwarven Song can be used to pull both copies from the draw deck if needed, and this way we can see how placing an axe on a third-string Dwarf fighter impacts the game.


Note that these changes won't be live until the next server reset. I encourage anyone to pipe in with their thoughts or concerns so nothing major is overlooked and allows one or two deck types to overtake the format.

December 17, 2017, 12:43:01 AM
Reply #12

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 863
  • Alex Jones was right
Re: Card Limits for The Hobbit Constructed Format
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2017, 12:43:01 AM »
- Glamdring needs to be R-listed, otherwise losing it with Gandalf at site 5 won't be important with up to 3 replace copies. It's presence changes things a lot: gives strong doubt remotion + tanks Gandalf (relieving Thorin from doing that task alone). But Wizard Staff isn't as important, so 4x is fine. Actually works much better in the hands of Radagast to grab spells. Also, if Radagast bears it you can lose Gandalf at 5 and stop, and in next turn exert Radagast for a spell, recover Gandalf fully healed, and finally transfer the Staff to Gandalf! Then you preserve the Staff as aid for Gandalf, and you get a spell btw!


- The Eagles Are Coming synergizes with 3 cards. Gwaihir & Beorn: it can play them from deck, or from discard pile in the same turn they were discarded (Old Thrush can only at next turn); Gwaihir can also return from support area to cancel a 2nd skirmish, or to pump a companion. And His Wrath Was Redoubled: it can recover a Beorn just discarded to pay its cost.

So these are the differences between the current and the intended versions: current one will return Beorn to support area, whose only immediate usefulness is to burn him again with another copy of HWWR already in hand in the fierce assignment. But with the corrected version, 1) he'll return to pump a companion and boost him, bringing back the strong [Gandalf] trick recycling, so 2) you can retrieve that exact same copy of HWWR to repeat at the fierce assignment. That combo is good, but you must remove every trace of non-fierce minions or they'll take those 3 wounds instead of the fierce ones you want to weaken/destroy, and that depends on the FP skirmishers winning their non-fierce fights. So isn't automatic.

TEAC's replaying of Beorn may seem powerful but is useful only if he gets discarded, which happens only if Yazneg/Smaug is used and Gandalf is exhausted/absent, if bearer is killed, or if HWWR burns him. So X-listing it seems totally unnecessary to me.


- Dwarven Axe should never be 1x only, with so many unleashed Shadow combos out there. In my opinion 2x is ok, but experience might even show us that it needs to be totally released. My point is that's much easier to discard (Smaug, Goblin Song, Ancestral Feuds at 5) than to recover (only Old Thrush, which can be blocked by Riddles in the Dark). Actually, Orcrist will be much easier to recover (Thorin + shuffling + a lucky draw, The Grey, another copy in The [Dwarven] Arkenstone).


Listing those restrictions that exact way you just did (by card type) is much more intelligent than mixing all things and sorting by card title. Hope you can do that in the request for the Format Rules tab, it'd save players a lot headaches.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2017, 01:14:33 AM by Durin's Heir »
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”  - Malcolm X

December 17, 2017, 07:21:30 AM
Reply #13

Phallen Cassidy

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Bowman
  • Posts: 493
Re: Card Limits for The Hobbit Constructed Format
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2017, 07:21:30 AM »
- Glamdring needs to be R-listed, otherwise losing it with Gandalf at site 5 won't be important with up to 3 replace copies. It's presence changes things a lot: gives strong doubt remotion + tanks Gandalf (relieving Thorin from doing that task alone). But Wizard Staff isn't as important, so 4x is fine. Actually works much better in the hands of Radagast to grab spells. Also, if Radagast bears it you can lose Gandalf at 5 and stop, and in next turn exert Radagast for a spell, recover Gandalf fully healed, and finally transfer the Staff to Gandalf! Then you preserve the Staff as aid for Gandalf, and you get a spell btw!

Glamdring joins The Arkenstone, King's Jewel on the R-list. Good call.

- Dwarven Axe should never be 1x only, with so many unleashed Shadow combos out there. In my opinion 2x is ok, but experience might even show us that it needs to be totally released. My point is that's much easier to discard (Smaug, Goblin Song, Ancestral Feuds at 5) than to recover (only Old Thrush, which can be blocked by Riddles in the Dark). Actually, Orcrist will be much easier to recover (Thorin + shuffling + a lucky draw, The Grey, another copy in The [Dwarven] Arkenstone).

Hm. Very few strategies actually gain any strength, since most possessions were already abundant and replayable with Goblin Footman. An extra copy of Anger and two extra If He Loses isn't nothing, but as Dictionary noted Fellowships have plenty going for them too. Beatdown shadow sides typically just worry about Thorin and Gandalf, and an axe on anyone but perhaps Gloin won't make a difference for whether a companion will lose a skirmish. What the extra Dwarven Axe will really help against are swarms and particularly spiders, where another axe for the Damage+1 companions (Dwalin, Fili, and Gloin) can mean one fewer bug in the next skirmish phase. Further, I think it'd be easy for backup axes to become an armory, temporarily replacing Orcrist or the axe on your second best Dwarf. And every Shadow side would include Ancestral Feuds (and multiple copies), since its impact would be greater.

All that said, I don't mind spiders doing worse (though very few people have actually gone for swarms, as far as I've seen), the axes cost (1) so there's at least something for the Shadow player to gain if they're swapped around, and Ancestral Feuds is already incredibly powerful because it punishes a player for just playing [Elven] allies, which can be near impossible to get rid of without Skilled Negotiator and a strong minion on the table. The extra axes would help by making Ancestral Feuds net -1 strength (until they get discarded), so every skirmish wouldn't have to be an overwhelm. I suppose I don't care as much anymore, but I'd lean towards seeing how 2 axes does.

Listing those restrictions that exact way you just did (by card type) is much more intelligent than mixing all things and sorting by card title. Hope you can do that in the request for the Format Rules tab, it'd save players a lot headaches.

The format rules for The Hobbit no longer contains nearly every card, so I don't think there's a reason to treat it any differently from any other format. It's manageable now.

December 18, 2017, 04:13:52 PM
Reply #14

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 863
  • Alex Jones was right
Re: Card Limits for The Hobbit Constructed Format
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2017, 04:13:52 PM »
The format rules for The Hobbit no longer contains nearly every card, so I don't think there's a reason to treat it any differently from any other format. It's manageable now.
But it can be simpler, and that's always better for the end user. Zuckerberg gained a lot by changing "thefacebook" to just "facebook". If you disagree, consider these 2 lesser changes at least: 1) sort by culture, and 2) trim out the subtitle for the Dwarf companions and Dwarf followers (since there isn't any alternative version and won't ever be). That'd make it much simpler.

Glamdring joins The Arkenstone, King's Jewel on the R-list. Good call.
Actually was you who noticed it, in the Gemp chat some weeks ago. Great.

I suppose I don't care as much anymore, but I'd lean towards seeing how 2 axes does.
We agree that 2 is a start, and will probably stay there. I'm just seeing another chance, and don't close the door to it.

Hm. Very few strategies actually gain any strength, since most possessions were already abundant and replayable with Goblin Footman...
4x Enchanted River will do marvels for Swarm shadows (just [2] for 3 cards, better than Strange Device). Caught in a Sack can block the strongest Dwarf (or tax Bilbo heavily), for instance sacrifying a Runner/Sneak to increase everyone else's chances to get into Goblin Swarms. Wargs are already abundant for Gundabad, but Savage Warg will be +2x (the only one for [Moria] Orcs and [Sauron] Bolg), as well as the mighty Troll Knife. So it's not only Anger and If He Loses.

What 4x for everything does for the Shadow is allowing the evil tide to be vomited much more often and steadily, which wears off the Company.

...and Ancestral Feuds is already incredibly powerful because it punishes a player for just playing [Elven] allies, which can be near impossible to get rid of without Skilled Negotiator and a strong minion on the table. The extra axes would help by making Ancestral Feuds net -1 strength (until they get discarded), so every skirmish wouldn't have to be an overwhelm.
Yeah, the [Elven] support is so tempting that Ancestral Feuds will be huge very often. And anyways, players will always have Elrond so it's never useless if you got the twilight (and many [Gandalf] tricks will provide it).
« Last Edit: December 18, 2017, 04:28:10 PM by Durin's Heir »
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”  - Malcolm X