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Author Topic: Hybrid Formats  (Read 32652 times)
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Durin's Heir
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Gemp: DurinsHeir
Formats: FOTR block, Towers Standard, Movie Block... and The Hobbit
Posts: 705


Purveyor of Headaches


« Reply #60 on: January 19, 2019, 06:12:02 AM »

I'm trying to resurrect this old thread...

The idea is to have a new format in Gemp to enhance the FOTR block card pool by adding things from further sets, in order to expand the gameplay AND be loyal to Tolkien's story and universe. We (mainly dmaz, Dictionary and I) worked it years ago, and got to a good but unfinished product. In theory at least...

All can be summarized this way:

- Valid Sets 1-3 (duh) + 9 (Reflections), 14 (Expanded Middle-Earth) & 16 (Wraith Collection).
- Sets 9 and 14 come with things from TTT and RotK films (and characters long-dead), so those are cut off.*
- Alternative RBs are removed too (save Bilbo, who was willing to carry it).
- Some relevant things from the FOTR timeframe from other sets are included: Anduril FOTW, Aragorn Strider, Sword of Boromir, Saruman's Staff, the Mouth of Sauron (is sent to Dale and Erebor)...
- As Sets 9 and 14 are almost all-FP (with that ugly power creep), some additions are done to diversify/reinforce Shadow strategies (but only things on the FOTR timeframe): 2 non-underground Balrogs, ESF for Watcher/tentacles (and more tentacles), Throne of Isengard, Fell Beast (The Witch King uses one), the muscular Sauron and Isengard trackers...
- Given that Shadow rise, some weak FP (sub)cultures get help to be viable: companion Thrarin/Grimir and Thorin III for Dwarves (since no Durin III!), a traveling Elrond EL for fighting Elves (no Cirdan, Gil-galad...), Beorning Axe and Ghan-buri-Ghan for Gandalf Men...

* or left as useless options outside their natural format, to not bulk the X-list: Freca, The Red Arrow, Ent Draught.

At the top of the previous page there's the current list of additions, exclusions and restrictions. Which isnt' fixed, but should change and evolve.


That way, we'd end up with an "Enhanced FOTR block" format (so to name it) where Tom Bombadil can save the four Hobbits from the ambush of Barrow Wights; or The Mouth of Sauron and some Orkish troops can fight kings Dain Ironfoot and Brand; or Mr. Butterbur can leave his dear inn and follow Strider to bodyguard the Hobbits to Rivendell, and get the counsel and help of Elrond and his sons. Or Gandalf returning from death in the nick of time to save Frodo from the Lidless Eye at Amon Hen. Or Sauron himself may appear and challenge the remains of The White Council... assisted by his now-ally Saruman.


Nice, isn't? Well, it's all a nice theory by now... we need to polish it more. Would you lend us your aid?
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"You think you got it all locked up inside
And if you beat 'em enough, they'll die.
It's like a walk in the park from a cell.
Now you're keeping
YOUR OWN KIND in #$&*@!.
When your Great Wall rocks, blame yourself
While their arms reach out for your help
And you're out of time."


            Guns N' Roses - Chinese Democracy


Dictionary
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Gemp: Dictionary
Formats: Expanded and Towers Standard
Posts: 479


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« Reply #61 on: January 19, 2019, 08:23:50 AM »

It's been a while Wink

As far as tidying up the lists is concerned, maybe Horror of Harad; Furious Hillman; Swarming Hillman; Half-Troll of Far Harad need not be X-listed, as they have little utility anyway.

Ring of Terror probably can be skipped in the Additional Valid list. It's the strongest Wraith ring and it makes News of Mordor or Ring of Ire much less useful.

I know I pushed for Disarmed + Guardian a while ago, but it does feel awkward having them added but R-listed. Any further thoughts on these cards?

Does Shire perhaps need more support? It's got one bonus card and 4 Reflections cards so far. But Goldberry is splashable.
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Phallen Cassidy
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Formats: Towers Standard, King Standard
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« Reply #62 on: January 19, 2019, 08:48:56 AM »

What is your goal in "tidying up the lists"? If it is to make things clear for players building a deck, just let the deck builder do its job and automatically include/exclude the cards that are included/excluded. If it is to make the list more readable, that's a noble endeavor but I wonder if it's really worth the trouble. Why not simply link people to a topic you create with the full lists? The Fellowship Poorman's format, for example, currently has the longest X-list of any format (every Fellowship block Rare). I'm looking into simplifying that into saying something like "All rares," but even as it stands the rules are not unclear.

I haven't looked through all the posts yet so I can't offer opinions on the format itself, but I would encourage you to truly make the format what you want without worrying about technicalities. Make the X-, R-, and Additional Valid lists as long as you please. Many players won't even notice them.
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Durin's Heir
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Formats: FOTR block, Towers Standard, Movie Block... and The Hobbit
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Purveyor of Headaches


« Reply #63 on: January 19, 2019, 10:10:17 AM »

It's been a while Wink
Feels like it was yesterday!

As far as tidying up the lists is concerned, maybe Horror of Harad; Furious Hillman; Swarming Hillman; Half-Troll of Far Harad need not be X-listed, as they have little utility anyway.
I was thinking the same. Horror of Harad is a small unique Uruk at best, but with no pumps or KoI's support. Half-Troll of Far Harad is even milder. The Hillmen are trickier, but the Shadow deck must be built around them to be effective (Ferny, The Mouth), and their effect is ludicrous as the goal of an entire deck. So agree fully with you. Thumbs Up

Ring of Terror probably can be skipped in the Additional Valid list. It's the strongest Wraith ring and it makes News of Mordor or Ring of Ire much less useful.
True. Besides, with the new burden potential (Must Do Without Hope outside undergrounds, Gollum DaD + Fell Beast for twilight nazzies, Sword of Flame) they can use Dark Whispers or Nazgul Sword for damage bonuses.

I know I pushed for Disarmed + Guardian a while ago, but it does feel awkward having them added but R-listed. Any further thoughts on these cards?
Aragorn already has ways to fight more than 1 minion in the old-fashioned way (Aragorn ROTN, VMoTW), so he doesn't really need Guardian. Boromir has Sword of Gondor to fight multiple times, or the subtitle-less Blade of Gondor + Elendil's Valor to kill a Scavenger and then finish the other guy (Gorn can now do the same with Knife of the Galadhrim). Besides defender bonuses, they have access to OWMWF, Horn of Boromir and now Halbarad.

Disarmed always had me uneasy. I don't want Wraith Rings, the Balrog's Sword or Saruman's Staff being ditched so easily, even if is only once per game.


Does Shire perhaps need more support? It's got one bonus card and 4 Reflections cards so far. But Goldberry is splashable.
This issue is interesting. You're right, those 5 4 cards (Hat, Tom Bomb, Goldberry, Bilbo companion and Everyone Knows) are strong but much less poweful than the Gondor, Elven, Dwarven or Gandalf ones. All those cultures get new strong skirmishers (and Gandalf can even resurrect them if needed). Double-moving is thus much easier for those cultures.

Shire is great at cancelling skirmishes, healing and choking, but given the lack of consistent strength and damage, they cannot double move safely. Boromir SoD + Narsil + Saga is a good addition, but doesn't solve that problem.. besides, we're giving additions that make full-Elves, full-Dwarves and full-Men viable... why Hobbits should be forced to carry a Man or Elf to survive?

Narrow Escape might be the solution. Powerful, but not splashable. After skirmish cancelling, CWW, Mithril Coat and Seek and Hide reduce the skirmish/archery harm, Narrow Escape would do what they cannot with the FOTR block card pool.


That'd remove 4 from the X-list, 2 from the R-list, and 2 in total (after adding Narrow Escape) from the Additional Valid list. 10 things less to memorize. Anything else?

I think Gimli OG isn't really necessary. I know, I pushed for it, but this is the sitepath where Book of Mazarbul actually works, and before that they can use Delving (and heal with Dwarven Heart without drawback, given Ironfoot). In such a perilous environment with dmg+2 Trolls (Hammer), Balrogs and Wizards (Staff, Of Many Colours, Throne; that's actually dmg+3!), I'd much rather have them wear a Belt of Erebor, so they can survive loses like Aragorn and Boromir often do via Armor (and Ghan and Halbarad will be doing).



I haven't looked through all the posts yet so I can't offer opinions on the format itself, but I would encourage you to truly make the format what you want without worrying about technicalities. Make the X-, R-, and Additional Valid lists as long as you please. Many players won't even notice them.
That's a good point. But since Dictionary mentioned cards that aren't really adding anything that was needed or wasn't already present, I feel both your point and Dictionary's can be compatible.

I wanted to add at least 1 card to the list: The Flame of Anor for Gandalf Men. So the idea is to trim only what's superfluous of being specified in those lists (mild, redundant or unnecessary), but I believe that card is not. Gandalf Men have low strength, and we're not including Erland, Dasron or Grimbeorn for being too powerful. So they need a little help.


The Fellowship Poorman's format, for example, currently has the longest X-list of any format (every Fellowship block Rare). I'm looking into simplifying that into saying something like "All rares," but even as it stands the rules are not unclear.
That's different, 'cause 'rare' is easy to exclude as a group. Including and excluding things that cannot be grouped by keywords, rareness, culture, etc., requires players to get accustomed to the format... the shorter the list, the easier to learn.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 05:10:46 PM by Durin's Heir » Logged

"You think you got it all locked up inside
And if you beat 'em enough, they'll die.
It's like a walk in the park from a cell.
Now you're keeping
YOUR OWN KIND in #$&*@!.
When your Great Wall rocks, blame yourself
While their arms reach out for your help
And you're out of time."


            Guns N' Roses - Chinese Democracy
Dictionary
Bowman
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Gemp: Dictionary
Formats: Expanded and Towers Standard
Posts: 479


Duplicitous Deckbuilder


« Reply #64 on: January 20, 2019, 04:32:44 AM »

I've made a separate thread for the list, it's easier to update and reference that way: http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,11468.msg95041/topicseen.html#msg95041

Let me know how it looks. Taking note of what we just said about readability, I've split it into further categories. I'm hoping I've got everything mentioned thus far, so please point out any errors.

There's a list of possibilities at the bottom to make it easier to see what's currently being discussed, especially if you haven't read the whole thread. Also helps me not to forget things Wink

Is The Flame of Anor replacing the previously discussed GotI proposal?
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