LotR Relaunch Discussion Thread #2.

[menace64]

Link to Discussion #1.

(If you were not present for Discussion #1 and wish to chime-in with your thoughts, please feel free to do so here or in that thread, although voting has been locked for the time-being.)

I apologize for not making this post sooner, but I doubt I'm the only person present whose life has been in some sort of flux over the course of the last calendar year. I encourage everyone to read the contents of Discussion #1 before joining us here in Discussion #2, as a lot of points were raised then that have hopefully had time-enough to ferment.

Breakdown of Votes when asked, 'What do you want?':
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• (59%) - 'No Relaunch' - 10 Votes;
• • (41%) - 7 votes indicating no desire to change anything;
• • (18%) - 3 votes indicating a desire to update the R/X lists and/or issue erratas.

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• (41%) - 'Yes Relaunch' - 7 Votes;
• • (35%) - 6 votes indicating a desire to overhaul the game in some capacity;
• • (06%) - 1 vote indicating for a relaunch without a second edition.

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• (59%) - 10 Votes indicated a desire to alter the game in some fashion;
• (41%) - 7 Votes indicated no desire to alter the game in some fashion.

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By simple majority, on the issue of whether or not the game should be Relaunched, the majority vote goes No. As far as I'm concerned, this should probably end the discussion... but I can't help but notice the 41% of voters who want a Relaunch, nor the 59% of voters who want some level of change to be made.

Thus, I call for the formation of a volunteer playtesting group, whose aim should be to carefully analyze a wide-spectrum of player-submitted alterations to the game, from updated ban lists and resuming the game at set 20, to new innovations and extreme makeovers. This group should be charged with the investigation of all procurable options, and to ultimately issue a unified suggestion for the best future course of LotR TCG.

I'd like to volunteer my services as a regular-and-repeating playtester on GEMP of any alterations possible for testing there. I'd like to volunteer my services as a regular-and-repeating playtester at local card shops with player-submitted game alterations unable to be accurately tested on GEMP, either by teaching new players how to play by the submitted rules, or by dredging up dormant players of years-gone-by and walking them through the proposed changes. I'd like to volunteer my time discussing online the outcomes of these Online/Offline tests, further reporting on the critiques given by those I play against.

I also volunteer my services in creating documentation forms to optimizing playtesting data-extraction and review, if such a service is seconded or deemed necessary.

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Please discuss in this thread:
- The best methods for holding playtests on GEMP and In-Real-Life.
- How these playtests are to be documented and shared with others online.
- What sort of availability you would have in volunteering for these purposes, either as a GEMP-only volunteer, an IRL-only volunteer, or Both.
- Anything even remotely related to all this. I recognize that 17 votes is peanuts compared to the total-games-played on GEMP, but until a larger active community is shown to me I'll go on presuming that we are, in fact, the last homely house, and we must act as if only we can do the best thing for this game we each love so dearly.
- Anything I missed.

[B051LjKo]

I love the game, but it desperately needs some changes. By far the most popular format is FOTR, and there is only a handful of meta decks that are competitive, the rest is just for fun. And it is not a lot of fun to play a silly deck against hardcore meta.

So my suggestions are, update the X / R list plus make some erratas to the cards.

Problems:

Horn of boromir, now that card is just stupid and broken beyond belief. Especially in the combination with Boromir Defender of Minas Tirith. This is just a broken combo.

Suggestions for the Horn:
- Ban the horn, the LOTR TCG world will be a much better place without it
- Errata, exert Boromir twice to allow make an ally participate in archery and skirmish.

Suggestions for the Boromir Defender of Minas Tirith:

Add in ''at the beginning of the fellowship phase'' so it can only heal one would. If you have him with the saga, he can soak in 3 archery every round, that is just stupid.

Aragorn Heir to the White city - Ban this #$&*@! thing. Gondor is the strongest culture in FOTR, combines well with elves, it should not be a choke option by default. At minimum errata like, every time fellowship move exert Aragorn. Let him work for the two tokens he removes every round. I mean that is 18 pool in total he will remove, that is HUGE!!!! For no drawbacks.

Flaming Brand. Extremely powerful against Nazgul, especially if you put two of them on. If you combine with last aliance aragorn gets at stupid range like 17 by default. That is just not right, and nazgul have no liable condition removal option.  I would say make it unique, and that would still make is strong, but with some limitations.

Dwarfs - Simply to weak for a skirmish culture. I would, by default, ad +1 to strength to all the little dwarfs. They rely on their possessions, and then Cantea comes and just annihilates them.

Song of Durin. Errata, from discard two goblin conditions, make it to discard a condition or two goblin conditions. This will give them some (limited, but some) condition discarding capability

Saurun orcs. The only viable option for Saurun is ''wound deck''' with all other options being in the silly territory.

What I would change is, errata all ''exert to'' conditions to ''spot to'' as they are extremely vulnerable to archery. (Desperate Defense of the Ring, Thin and Stretched, The Irresistible Shadow,)

Weight of a Legacy - completely useless card no one will ever play, errata to unique, and -3 strength would make it more desirable (or at least -1 strength -1 body)

One to think about - change the roaming site number from 6 to 5, at least for the big fat ones. Trackers can stay at 6.

Balrog Durin's Bane

Balrog should not be discarded if not underground. It enables everyone to just run to site 6! that is not good for diversity of the game. If you want to run at site 6, make sure you kill that balrog, or deal with him again.


That is the first round of suggestions. I think we can make a new FOTR test format, and then play it in parralel with the existing one, and let us all see how do we like the (much needed) changes to this, by far the most popular block. I am even fine with leaving original FOTR lock as is, is someone wants to continue playing it, why not!

[menace64]

I love the game, but it desperately needs some changes. By far the most popular format is FOTR, and there is only a handful of meta decks that are competitive, the rest is just for fun. And it is not a lot of fun to play a silly deck against hardcore meta.

So my suggestions are, update the X / R list plus make some erratas to the cards.

Problems:

Horn of boromir, now that card is just stupid and broken beyond belief. Especially in the combination with Boromir Defender of Minas Tirith. This is just a broken combo.

Suggestions for the Horn:
- Ban the horn, the LOTR TCG world will be a much better place without it
- Errata, exert Boromir twice to allow make an ally participate in archery and skirmish.

Suggestions for the Boromir Defender of Minas Tirith:

Add in ''at the beginning of the fellowship phase'' so it can only heal one would. If you have him with the saga, he can soak in 3 archery every round, that is just stupid.

Would it be a worthy effort to try changing what the Horn even does? My gut feeling has always been to change it so that it functions similar to its legacy:

(F) (This is a Fourth Age card.)
•Horn of Boromir
Artifact • Horn
Resistance: +1
Bearer must be Boromir.
Skirmish: Spot an unbound Hobbit assigned to a skirmish and exert Boromir to have him replace an unbound Hobbit in a skirmish.
"On a baldric he wore a great horn tipped with silver..."

I realize this version is completely different from the original Horn of Boromir, not an errata but a rewrite. If the card's a problem, it's been a problem for years at this point, so change it. Doesn't have to be as extreme an alteration as the dream card I just whipped up, but at least it'll be different.

Of course, any reworked card's identity as a "Fourth Age" card (or whatever we would decide to call the new changes) should prohibit it in any format restricted to "Legacy" cards. No overlap.

Aragorn Heir to the White city - Ban this #$&*@! thing. Gondor is the strongest culture in FOTR, combines well with elves, it should not be a choke option by default. At minimum errata like, every time fellowship move exert Aragorn. Let him work for the two tokens he removes every round. I mean that is 18 pool in total he will remove, that is HUGE!!!! For no drawbacks.

What about this:

(F) (This is a Fourth Age card.)
•Aragorn, Heir to the White City
Companion • Man
Strength: 8
Vitality: 4
Signet: Frodo
Ranger.
Each time the fellowship moves during the fellowship phase, if you can spot 4 races in the fellowship, remove .
"'...his hood was cast back, and his dark hair was blowing in the wind, a light was in his eyes: a king returning from exile in his own land.'"

Provides the same effect to the Free Peoples player now willing to take the risk of building the legit-fellowship. Adding this spotting requirement would also add some endurance to his value in alternative decks of a similar multicultural play-style.

Flaming Brand. Extremely powerful against Nazgul, especially if you put two of them on. If you combine with last aliance aragorn gets at stupid range like 17 by default. That is just not right, and nazgul have no liable condition removal option.  I would say make it unique, and that would still make is strong, but with some limitations.

(F) (This is a Fourth Age card.)
Flaming Brand
Possession • Hand Weapon
Strength +1
Bearer must be a Man. This weapon may be borne in addition to 1 other hand weapon.
Skirmish: Discard this possession to make bearer strength +4 and damage +1 while skirmishing a Nazgûl (or a Warg) until the regroup phase.
"...a glimpse of Strider leaping out of the darkness with a flaming brand of wood in either hand."

Aragorn should be able to double-wield brands, but not indefinitely. The latent +1 strength boost is piddly but still valuable to have on you (like a good ranger) since it's just a stick. But if you get jumped by Nazgûl you can set this puppy on fire and it's good at keeping-back monsters until the night is over. The net-gain of the card is also given a +1 boost to compensate slightly for losing it to use it. It still keeps the pressure on the Nazgul player to have a pump or something tricky prepared without perpetuating the sensation for six or seven sites at a time.

Dwarfs - Simply too weak for a skirmish culture. I would, by default, add +1 to strength to all the little dwarfs. They rely on their possessions, and then Cantea comes and just annihilates them.

Song of Durin. Errata, from discard two goblin conditions, make it to discard a condition or two goblin conditions. This will give them some (limited, but some) condition discarding capability

Your Song of Durin suggestion is solid. That's probably the perfect version of the card.

I love the idea of starting Dwarves off with +1 strength - Gimli would certainly show up more often!

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I think it would also be a good idea to write a handful of cards that hurt Dwarven resistance, maybe even starting them 1 average-deviation lower than, say, Elves. Possible examples:

(F)
Dwarven Heart
Condition
Bearer must be a Dwarf.
When you play this condition, heal bearer up to 2 times. At the start of each of your turns, bearer is resistance -1 until the start of the regroup phase.
"'...a Dwarf goes on, be the burden twice his own weight....'"

(F)
The End Comes
Event
Assignment: Spot 5 minions to make the Free Peoples player assign 3 of them to a Dwarf companion with resistance 2 or less.
"'They have taken the Bridge and the second hall; we have barred the gates - but cannot hold them for long....'"

(F)
Goblin Domain
Condition • Support Area
Search. To play, spot a minion.
Each time an unbound companion moves to or is played at an underground site, that companion is resistance -1 until the fellowship moves again.
The once beautiful kingdom of Khazad-dûm has become Moria, the black pit.

(F)
Disquiet of Our People
Event
Maneuver: Exert a Dwarf to make that Dwarf resistance +1 (or resistance +2 if you spot an Orc) until the regroup phase.
"'Ah, alas!... When will the day come of our revenge?'"

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Sauron orcs. The only viable option for Saurun is ''wound deck''' with all other options being in the silly territory.

Ugh yeah the non-native keyword still drives me crazy. What if we used the keyword for some new mechanic, and due to a quirk of wording suddenly is the only culture in Fellowship block to manipulate it in some way? That's like... meta-flavor. I mean, the keyword itself would be non-native to its format..

What I would change is, errata all ''exert to'' conditions to ''spot to'' as they are extremely vulnerable to archery. (Desperate Defense of the Ring, Thin and Stretched, The Irresistible Shadow,)

Those would feel more like cards then, and somewhat-less like . I think players should even be rewarded for losing their Orcs before a skirmish. It might also be necessary to increase some exertion-demands on conditions to 2 per card in some cases (The Irresistible Shadow, chief among them).

lol what about something crazy like:
(F)
Massing in the East
Event
Regroup: Discard a Orc to play a different Orc from your discard pile for each of these races you can spot in the fellowship: Dwarf, Elf, Man, and Wizard.
"'The power of the Black Land grows...'"

It'd be fun to slip something like that onto a RotEL card. Now all those well-exerted Orcs who survived the whole turn can still be useful - as fodder for the war effort!

Weight of a Legacy - completely useless card no one will ever play, errata to unique, and -3 strength would make it more desirable (or at least -1 strength -1 body)

Or invert it!

(F)
The Weight of a Legacy
Condition
Resistance -1
To play, exert a Orc. Bearer must be a Man.
Each time bearer loses a skirmish, each other companion is strength -1 until the end of the turn.
"'It is because of Men, the Ring survives.... I was there the day the strength of Men failed.'"

Now it can go onto any Gondorian, and issues a permanent hit to resistance instead of strength so he can still do his fancy fightin' stuff. But if he ever loses... ouch, especially in duplicate.

One to think about - change the roaming site number from 6 to 5, at least for the big fat ones. Trackers can stay at 6.

What if the Big Fat Ones cost less but stayed roaming until site 7? That gives Trackers an added incentive and value but make just a teensy-bit slower into their big meanies without the little ones around.

(F)
Dagorlad Hunter (Formerly Morgul Hunter)
Minion • Orc
Strength: 9
Vitality: 4
Site Number: 7
For each companion you can spot, this minion is strength +1.
Sauron's hatred lives in the hearts of his minions.

Balrog Durin's Bane

Balrog should not be discarded if not underground. It enables everyone to just run to site 6! that is not good for diversity of the game. If you want to run at site 6, make sure you kill that balrog, or deal with him again.

As a first-option-response I'd be leery to altering Durin's Bane, since every card in Fellowship block already cares about him. Tamper with that noodle and you might get stir-fry.

[menace64]

That is the first round of suggestions. I think we can make a new FOTR test format, and then play it in parallel with the existing one, and let us all see how do we like the (much needed) changes to this, by far the most popular block. I am even fine with leaving original FOTR block as is, if someone wants to continue playing it, why not!

I like bouncing ideas off of people but I don't put any heavy weight on anything I contribute - not without testing certainly, and not at the expense of other participants. I want to work towards building an infrastructure allowing all ideas to be thoroughly explored during whatever redesign-process ultimately emerges.

That being said, I'd argue fairly strongly for all "Fourth Age"-era cards or rules changes to be banned from use in a Legacy format, preserving undimmed before the breaking of the world the original experience of playing LotR TCG. I 100% wouldn't want any volunteer-led alterations to prevent anyone from enjoying the Prime experience.

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If anyone else wants to throw their user/geo in, I'll add you to the list below. I cannot stress enough how important IRL playtests are while simultaneously not attempting to put pressure on anyone to participate. If you have zero desire to IRL playtest but can still play online, please just list X as your location. As often as I'm asked to add you or remove you from this list, I'll do so, if such a list proves useful.

(last updated: November 17, '19)
USER | LOCATION
menace64 - Kansas

[Durin's Heir]

(F)
Disquiet of Our People
Event
Maneuver: Exert a Dwarf to make that Dwarf resistance +1 (or resistance +2 if you spot an Orc) until the regroup phase.
"'Ah, alas!... When will the day come of our revenge?'"

This one should be a support area condition. Exerting a low-vitality Dwarf for just +1 (or +2) temporary resistance is a very bad deal for a hand clogging trick. But for a card that remains on board, may be useful. Would be somewhat like Make Light of Burdens.

I've always thought Still Draws Breath should do more than only healing:

(F)
Still Draws Breath
Event
Response: If a Dwarf wins a skirmish, choose one: heal that Dwarf, discard a Shadow condition borne by that Dwarf, or draw 3 cards.
"When thirteen had fallen the rest fled shrieking, leaving the defenders unharmed..."

So that would contribute to enrich a bit their almost-unexistant condition control, along with B051LjKo's version of Song of Durin.

Dwarfs - Simply too weak for a skirmish culture. I would, by default, add +1 to strength to all the little dwarfs.

I love the idea of starting Dwarves off with +1 strength - Gimli would certainly show up more often!

Yeah, each Dwarf should be +1 strength. They were set at the same level as Elves, but the pointy-eared little princesses aren't so often exposed to skirmishes due to their archery and ally potential, while Dwarves ALWAYS risk their necks. Besides, what does damage serve for, if you cannot even win the skirmish?

(F)
Massing in the East
Event
Regroup: Discard a Orc to play a different Orc from your discard pile for each of these races you can spot in the fellowship: Dwarf, Elf, Man, and Wizard.
"'The power of the Black Land grows...'"

This one along with Orc Slayer / Morgul Slayer would be awesome!

(F) (This is a Fourth Age card.)
•Horn of Boromir

Artifact seems ok to me (both very old and very rare). Your skill is the same as Sword of Boromir's effect, but the wording is a bit weaker, so I'd copy it as is in the sword (removing the possession discard). 

The Horn is used 3 times in the book: when leaving Rivendell (a showing off which always reminded me of Defender of Minas Tirith's skill), at Moria when challenging The Balrog (yeah, that's right... and he even halted!), and when saving the Hobbits at Amon Hen. It was used to intimidate enemies, or to attract them to Boromir as in the end. Never to call for distant friends' help, Decipher was very wrong with that.

In that sense, I'd love an intimidating skill like "Skirmish: Exert Boromir to make each minion skirmishing him strength -2" or so, but along with the Hobbit-replacing one might be not enough room.

(F) (This is a Fourth Age card.)
•Aragorn, Heir to the White City

I'd say "Each time the fellowship moves during the fellowship phase, if you can spot , remove ." Would still remove twilight but would be leaving something at least to Shadow players. Forcing a Rainbow fellowship may be too much of a benefit instead of a cost.

[Inspire]

If this is purely a thought experiment, these are all great ideas. However, I'd caution that if the goal is to implement changes that will be accepted by the community, simpler is always better. 

[menace64]

Right now it's just a discussion.

What sorts of changes are you most-interested in seeing brought to the game? If a simple solution bears-out during playtesting and community support, then of course it should be the solution that is implemented.

[Phallen Cassidy]

Between the current (if stalled) Second Edition attempt and your poll results, I'd say your efforts would be better spent trying for community erratas for X/R-list cards and totally useless cards. Gemp is the easiest way, by far, to test things out -- the code is open source, so anyone can create a copy of it on their computer and play games against themselves. MarcinS has simplified the process of creating cards so that you no longer need to know Java, too. You'd probably be able to get a "Community Fellowship Block" format created on Gemp Proper and test changes that way, but I'd advise a healthy amount of debate beforehand so that people aren't turned off by unfinished ideas.

If anyone wants to play in the Triangle area of NC, I'd be happy to try and figure something out.

[menace64]

community erratas for X/R-list cards and totally useless cards.

Agreed.

Would anybody be interested in some sort of Proposed-Erratas Contest? Everybody could submit their submissions for alterations of pre-existing-cards in Fellowship Block - along with some brief description of why you feel the change should be made - and the highest-voted submissions would get GEMPified first? (I would suggest only Fellowship Block for now as to keep things simple on the initial go-around. If all went well we could easily apply this method to any other format.)

These trial-changes would of course be limited only to "Fourth Age"/"Second Edition"/"[Insert Name]" formats.

If this sounds appealing to anybody: Would you prefer a free-for-all contest with no implied constraints, or a contest that is slightly more focused? - maybe limit the final changes to X cards per culture, or only X cards would be changed in total? X submissions per user? Thoughts?

[5tein]

Old thread, I know, but wondered if there has been discussion / analysis of Fellowship Block modified to allow some or all cards from peripheral sets like Reflections, Age's End, Wraith Collection?

Not all cards fit and some would be OP or even broken, but my friend and I have used those to extend Fship (which remains our favorite format next to draft).

[menace64]

I've wanted to see an extended format for a while. Like, what would happen if we added set 16 to fellowship block?

[5tein]

Yeah, totally agree: Adding 16 is fun, and we've played with most cards in 9 and 19 as well, shying away from those that seem obviously OP or anachronistic.

I've written up an analysis of what it looks like, though I've not playtested all of the possibilities.