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Author Topic: Format Rules, Regulations and Red Tape  (Read 59291 times)

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January 30, 2009, 05:03:31 AM
Reply #15

Gil-Estel

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Re: Format Rules, Regulations and Red Tape
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2009, 05:03:31 AM »
me too, but he says she isn't...evil is coming!
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January 30, 2009, 07:17:43 AM
Reply #16

leokula

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Re: Format Rules, Regulations and Red Tape
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2009, 07:17:43 AM »
LMAO again I think it's very very unlikely that she's legal in movie block...

Anybody out there knows if she was banned because of a shadows card or simply because she's broken on her own?

January 30, 2009, 08:31:07 AM
Reply #17

daisukeman

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Re: Format Rules, Regulations and Red Tape
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2009, 08:31:07 AM »
I have a CRD that has Galadriel banned before shadows.
I don't know why the kept changing these rulings and the decipher site went down, so I don't know if any changes were made about that. I like to keep her banned where I play.

An about RB's cancelling, I've understood since Reflections they realized it was not sane for the RB to cancel. So be it FotR, TTT, RoTK, or MB no RB cancelling was allowed ever again.
That's how we play here and how I've understood the decision events...
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January 30, 2009, 08:37:58 AM
Reply #18

leokula

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Re: Format Rules, Regulations and Red Tape
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2009, 08:37:58 AM »
I think cancelling skirmishes with Frodo in movie block is OK, it was never OP. The main concern was with stuff like Voice of Nimrodel in Galadriel, BoW and Boromir's Gauntlets in Boromir, BoC. Apart from that, there are no abusive [Shire] cards that cancel skirmishes before Shadows.

February 01, 2009, 02:52:06 AM
Reply #19

Elessar's Socks

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Re: Format Rules, Regulations and Red Tape
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2009, 02:52:06 AM »
Galadriel, Lady Redeemed (and Final Account) were added to the X-List in January 2005, after the release of Shadows (article here). Changes to the X-List upon the release of Shadows are covered here.

Anyway, these are just for the records. If your group doesn't like the lady in whatever format, nothing's stopping you from banning her. ;) Same with scaling back the canceling rules (technically later rules documents supersede earlier ones).


February 04, 2009, 08:42:24 AM
Reply #20

Kralik

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Re: Format Rules, Regulations and Red Tape
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2009, 08:42:24 AM »
I have a CRD that has Galadriel banned before shadows.

If you have any old CRD's, please attach them so they can be uploaded for reference? But, the newest CRD I have before Shadows has an X-list without Galadriel LR, identical to the Movie Block X-list used by LOTRO. That CRD is posted in The Archives.

Movie Block is a format created for players anyway and there is no official rulings for it, as far as I'm concerned.

Decipher's definition was on their LOTRO pages (now missing) and can be checked with the LOTRO deck validator.

As far as canceling RB skirmishes: I'd say do it in Fellowship/Towers, since cards in those blocks were designed for it specifically. But not in King/Movie.

March 30, 2009, 01:12:41 PM
Reply #21

rubbercarp

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Re: Format Rules, Regulations and Red Tape
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2009, 01:12:41 PM »
What is the definition of "Expanded?" Is it all sets (minus the XList above)? What sites should I be using? Can I use any sites from Shadows onward?

I am a former player that got out of the game before Shadows (so the last set I have cards from is 10 Mt. Doom) but a friend of mine who I want to play with has some cards from Shadows and Black Rider. We're trying to find a middle ground where neither of us have to completely rework all of our decks.

He doesn't want to play Movie Block because he has decks with newer cards in them and a new unnumbered site path. And I don't want to play Standard because it bans over 2/3rds of the cards that I already own.

I've been lurking on these boards for a few days trying to find a middle ground, and it sounds like it might be "Expanded."

Thoughts?
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March 30, 2009, 01:23:51 PM
Reply #22

Elrohir

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Re: Format Rules, Regulations and Red Tape
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2009, 01:23:51 PM »
Hi rubber,

In expanded, you use sites from Shadows onwards. In your case, you can play cards from editions 4 (The two towers) to 13 (Bloodlines). - This (former standard) format should work. Use either Rotk Block sites (with crown symbol) or site from shadows, Black Riders and Bloodlines.

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March 30, 2009, 01:32:55 PM
Reply #24

rubbercarp

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Re: Format Rules, Regulations and Red Tape
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2009, 01:32:55 PM »
Thanks Elrohir and Lurtzy for your FAST responses!

Though there seem to be some descrepancies between your answers =)
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March 30, 2009, 02:28:39 PM
Reply #25

Elessar's Socks

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Re: Format Rules, Regulations and Red Tape
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2009, 02:28:39 PM »
The official Expanded format is what Lurtzy described. All sets legal, following the X/R-lists above, and sites only from set 11 (Shadows) on.

Another (unofficial) approach is, as Elrohir described, to scale back Standard format to before Towers Block was rotated out and Hunters was released. For "authenticity" that would be sites from set 11 on, and following whatever X/R-list was in use at the time. Maybe you could borrow later sites, or both use the RotK site path (possibly adjusting the X-list for broken combos).

March 30, 2009, 02:41:13 PM
Reply #26

rubbercarp

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Re: Format Rules, Regulations and Red Tape
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2009, 02:41:13 PM »
Thanks so much everyone!
What a great community this is!

It took me a while to find an active community (since most searches direct back to dead Decipher and DGMA pages). As I said, I've been lurking for a few days and this site is really great!

Looks like I'm off to the Trading pages to see if I can get my hands on some Sites!
All of my extra Lord of the Rings TCG, MECCG, SWCCG, and WoW TCG singles are available for sale on my website: http://www.ccg-singles.com

March 30, 2009, 11:07:08 PM
Reply #27

Gil-Estel

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Re: Format Rules, Regulations and Red Tape
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2009, 11:07:08 PM »
There I could help you out....Where are you from...try to get rid of like 10.000 plus unc/common from set 1-18, for like 30 usd. But since I live in the Netherlands I guess shipping would be high if it is to be send to other parts of the world...
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July 23, 2009, 01:23:05 PM
Reply #28

Elessar's Socks

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Re: Format Rules, Regulations and Red Tape
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2009, 01:23:05 PM »
Since this has come up a few times, here are the articles I could find giving reasons why certain cards were added to the X-List.

Still missing:

Aggression
Final Account
Frying Pan
Galadriel, Lady Redeemed
Memories of Darkness
Mordor Fiend
Steadfast Champion
The Shire Countryside

Quote
Cards Not in the New Enviorment

Below is a card-by-card analysis of the fifteen cards the Decipher TCG Studio concluded were skewing the play environment. You'll find that most of these cards either:

   1. Have too little "cultural enforcement." Cultural enforcement in The Lord of the Rings TCG means that something on the card requires a commitment to the culture. Perhaps it requires 3 cards from that culture before it can be played, or requires characters from its culture to exert to activate it. This enforcement ensures that to get the strengths of a given culture, you also have to deal with its weaknesses. Without this enforcement, all decks would devolve to "best of" decks.
   2. Are undercosted when compared to the benefit received from the card.
      For instance, a card like Filibert Bolger, Wily Rascal has an extremely useful (and powerful) ability. To be costed correctly, he needs either a higher cost to play, or a higher cost to use for his special ability.

The number of cards, especially Free Peoples cards, with these problems threatened the play environment with stagnation. To design cards that must compete with this host of overpowered cards would simply be replacing one of them with a new, more powerful version. The result would be that one deck type would continue to dominate the tournament scene, with players growing more and more unsatisfied with their gaming experience.

1R40 Elrond, Lord of Rivendell

The cultural enforcement on this card is not strong enough for the ability provided. Such an ability should require more of a commitment to the Elven culture. Also, when combined with other cards such as 1C59 Shoulder to Shoulder, the healing function of this card provides too much utility, both for Elrond, and other site 3 allies.

1R45 Galadriel, Lady of Light

This card has no cultural enforcement. The special ability allows a player to play high utility site 6 allies, who also lack cultural enforcement, for free. This level of permanent resource denial undermines the Shadow number curve on sites. Also, when combined with other cards such as 1C59 Shoulder to Shoulder, the healing function of this card provides too much utility, both for Galadriel, and other site 6 allies.

1R80 Ottar, Man of Laketown

This card makes large-scale card draw too accessible to all Free Peoples strategies. It requires a very low cultural commitment to a culture that is not supposed to be the strongest at Fellowship phase card draw.

1U108 No Stranger to the Shadows

This level of permanent resource denial undermines the Shadow number curve on sites.

1R139 Savagery to Match Their Numbers

The secondary function of this card is too strong for its cost, and makes the card superior in almost all situations to any other strength event.

1U234 Ulaire Nertea

The special ability of this card has no cultural enforcement. This makes him too accessible to non-Ringwraith swarm decks. His ability also empowers the swarm by triggering the "best option" swarm minions repeatedly.

1C248 Forces of Mordor

This card was written before the swarm dimension was added to the Sauron culture. As such, it is too powerful in those decks.

1R313 Sting

There is no cultural enforcement on this card because every deck is required to play with Frodo. This is true of any card that requires only the Ring-bearer with no additional enforcement. The cost of the special ability, exerting a Hobbit, is undercosted for the utility it provides.

2R32 Flaming Brand

This card has no cultural enforcement, may be played in addition to another weapon, and has no cost. The resulting combination provides too much utility.

2C101 Filibert Bolger, Wily Rascal

There is no cultural enforcement on this card as all players have one or more Hobbits. For a special ability on a permanent, the cost is too low compared to the power provided. Also, this is a permanent that cancels the Ring-bearer's skirmish at site 9.

2R108 O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!

There is no cultural enforcement on this card as all players have a Ring-bearer. Also, this is a permanent that cancels the Ring-bearer's skirmish at site 9.

3R38 Aragorn, Heir to the White City

There is no cultural enforcement on the game text of this card. This level of permanent resource denial undermines the Shadow number curve on sites.

3R42 Horn of Boromir

There is no cultural enforcement on the special ability of this card. This permanent effectively circumvents the rule of 9 by allowing non-companions to skirmish.

3R68 Saruman, Keeper of Isengard

This card effectively doubles the number of skirmishes a fellowship faces by making all Uruk-hai fierce and then nullifying play that would serve as protection against those Uruk-hai.

4C192 Uruk Regular

The cost reduction of this minion is too extreme, especially when combined with the reduction on 4U347 Deep of Helm.

Last Updated: Monday, April 14, 2003

Quote
Shadows Cast Upon the X-List

This November, Shadows – the newest expansion for The Lord of the Rings TCG – will come roaring onto the scene. The rules changes made in this new set are small, but between them and the 266 cards that comprise it, the impact on the strategy will be huge. Consequently, we will be adding 9 cards to the X-List with the release of Shadows.

This does represent the largest single update to the X-List since its creation, but we believe this to be the right step to maintain the health and diversity of the tournament environment. We're confident that the exciting strategies allowed by the new rules and cards of Shadows – which were created with eyes firmly on a long-term future of depth and variety – will easily compensate for the loss of a handful of cards.

Effective upon the release of Shadows, the following cards will be on the X-List:
Saruman's Snows (1 C 138)
Sam, Son of Hamfast (1 C 311)
A Talent For Not Being Seen (1 U 316)
Bill Ferny, Swarthy Sneering Fellow (2 R 75)
Gimli, Dwarf of the Mountain Race (2 P 121)
Galadriel, Lady of the Golden Wood (3 R 17)
Legolas, Dauntless Hunter (4 R 73)
Fortress Never Fallen (4 U 276)
Get On and Get Away (4 R 304)

Also, we will be removing from the X-List:
Gondorian Captain (7 C 96)

Finally, though not related directly to the X-List, there are important rulings clarifying the play of 4 other cards in the Open and Standard environments:
Paths Seldom Trodden (1 U 222)
Úlairë Nelya, Lieutenant of Morgul (1 U 233)
Dark Places (2 C 55)
Grimbold, Marshal of Rohan (7 R 233)

With sneak previews of Shadows cards and rumors of rules already buzzing about the community, some of you may deduce the reasons behind these changes. But in case you're not up on the latest gossip (or aren't sure which bits of it to believe), here's a card-by-card explanation of each of these changes.

Saruman's Snows
This card had perhaps a slower rise to power than some, but before long players knew this was one of the most effective conditions in the game. Its impact was so deep, more than one top-level tournament deck has been seen stocking multiple copies of Boromir's Cloak exclusively to deal with it. For a "swarm" style of Shadow strategy, quite potent enough on its own, Saruman's Snows ensures the Ring-bearer will be overwhelmed.

Saruman's Snows does not necessarily interact directly with any of the new rules in Shadows. We have witnessed over the years, however, that it is a figurative mallet where a scalpel is called for. Denying an opponent a resource or opportunity he was counting on is of course what the game is all about. A missed chance to heal here, a lost special ability there; in the right quantities, these are the things meant to decide games. But Saruman's Snows is a card able to cut off an entire phase of the game – neither skirmish special abilities nor events can slip by it. Consequently, it's a constant impediment to new card design. In a way, it doesn't matter how interesting or impactful a new card we release is – if it happens in the skirmish phase, there's a frequently used card out there that can shut it off.  You may well see aspects of this card reappearing in the future, but not all together in a gift-wrapped single package like this.

Sam, Son of Hamfast
This card has been on our X-List radar for quite some time. The deck lists turned in by the top 16 players of each major event this year were a perfect example of why – in every case, at least 15 of them were stocking one or more copies of Sam. He is simply too versatile, offering huge benefits regardless of Free Peoples strategy, and regardless of who your Ring-bearer is. And he's even better if your Ring-bearer happens to be Frodo.

With Shadows, the need to address Sam became even more pressing. With resistance becoming an important feature of all companions (not just Ring-bearer) and it being directly tied to burdens, Sam easily undermined a large number of Shadow cards in the set, and made many Free Peoples cards too reliable (and thus, too strong).

A Talent for Not Being Seen
Any single type of function of the game can be looked at as falling somewhere on a scale. For example, take healing: on one end of the scale, you have a card which removes 1 wound, while on the other you might have a card which removes 20. Cost is just as important as scope in determining where on the scale a card falls, of course. A card that heals a wound for a twilight cost of 2 is lower on the scale than a card that heals a wound for a twilight cost of 1.

With A Talent For Not Being Seen, the scale in question is denying twilight tokens to the Shadow player. Talent has a very low cost, and over the course of the game it can deny a lot of twilight tokens. Thus its scope leaves us very little room to make cards any better than it without "exploding" this aspect of the game. At the same time, its cost is so low that it leaves us very little room to make cards of lower scope than it – there's not much lower the cost for such cards can get. It's sort of a big, rotting tree in the middle of the "twilight denial" acreage. With very limited possibilities for building around it, it had to be torn down to make space for the house we intend to build on the land.

For those who feel I've stretched my analogy a bit thin (or who draw an unpleasant comparison with Saruman uprooting the forest near Isengard), let me say it another, perhaps simpler way: Talent has been a card near the edge of "trouble" for some time, and with recent efforts to increase the strength of other aspects of the Hobbit culture, it was judged too powerful to remain in the environment.

Bill Ferny, Swarthy Sneering Fellow
There was talk of adding Bill Ferny to the X-List while we worked on Reflections. Clearly, he works well against the alternate Ring-bearers and deters some players from using them. But at that time, we felt that the scales were not tipped far enough against the new Ring-bearers to warrant removing Ferny.

But now Shadows gives resistance a much larger role in the game, and the fact that Ring-bearers other than Frodo have a lower resistance is becoming a greater liability in and of itself. That new liability, combined with the existence of Bill Ferny, threatened to make one of the most well-liked aspects of Reflections too unreliable in a tournament environment for most players to consider.

Also, as one more strike against Bill Ferny (though an unneeded one), Shadows introduces a couple of new cards to the Wraith culture (renamed from the Ringwraith culture) which, because they work for the whole culture and aren't Nazgûl specific, would have made Ferny a truly frightening force to be reckoned with.

Gimli, Dwarf of the Mountain Race
Dwarves as a culture have never excelled at keeping site Shadow numbers low and "choking" off the twilight pool. Gimli was a fun anomaly for the Fellowship block, where the number and placement of underground sites was known and limited. Those same boundaries held true on the Tower and King site paths. But with Shadows, all that is changing.

Shadows has a big focus on what design and development call "terrain" – that is, whether a site is a battleground, forest, mountain, river, or any of the other similar types of keywords. Terrain is so important with the new adventure path that in playtesting, players were frequently bidding to go second, and "pathfinding" (selection of the next site by the Free Peoples player) was valued as it has never been before. If a player wants to run an adventure path of nothing but one type of terrain, that may well be possible – if not with Shadows, then likely once Black Rider and Bloodlines are added to the mix.

In short, having a single, easy-to-start card (one with out-of-culture gameplay, at that) which could potentially deny 2 twilight tokens at every single site simply proved too strong.

Galadriel, Lady of the Golden Wood
Again, terrain is hugely important beginning with Shadows. And as with Gimli, this card was both too strong and out of culture. Pathfinding has never been a part of the Elven culture aside from this card, and suddenly Galadriel was enabling Elves to put out an uninterrupted string of forests onto the adventure path. She could even do this for free, since the cost of her exertion could be negated by using her to heal herself.

Legolas, Dauntless Hunter
This is another card that has been considered for the X-List before. One can look at deck lists before and after The Two Towers expansion and see a sudden, sharp drop in the number of conditions used by the average Shadow build, a trend which to this day many Shadow strategies don't dare to challenge. Playing against a Dauntless Hunter deck can be particularly negative to a new player, who is usually unaware that such a powerful deck type exists to stall playing Shadow events and conditions.

With Shadows, a third unbound Hobbit is on the way to add to Merry and Pippin, and push the power of this Legolas even farther. We also anticipate additional unbound Hobbits in future sets. While there's lots of room to debate whether Dauntless Hunter is simply "good" or "too strong" with two unbound Hobbits (and we certainly have in the past), that room shrinks quickly as the number of unbound Hobbits starts to rise.

Other cards such as Aragorn, Wingfoot, Gimli, Lockbearer, and various Ents also have a relationship with unbound Hobbits – one which we'll be watching closely in the future – but Legolas, being so near the edge of being a problem already, needed attention now.

Fortress Never Fallen
No doubt some will question adding a Rohan card to the X-List at a time when the Rohan culture is not making a strong impact in the environment. First of all, be assured that Rohan's star will rise again with future sets.

Since the release of The Two Towers, we have been refining the cultural identity of Rohan. Among other evolutions, we want them to be absolute top dog at dealing with Shadow possessions, but hard-pressed to deal with Shadow conditions. Let Us Be Swift and (in a very limited way) Arrow-slits are also capable of discarding conditions, but neither is as reliable or effective as Fortress Never Fallen. The card is so effective, it was impeding future design – it was hard for us to push Rohan to be strong at the things they're supposed to be strong at while they were also so strong at this particular thing they're supposed to be weak at. Any good push ran the risk of simply making them good at everything. With this "obstacle" removed, the road will now be clear for us to roll through with great new cards for fans of the Rohan culture.

Get On and Get Away
As with Galadriel, here was a pathfinding card that proved very powerful with the new adventure path. And like Galadriel, it's in a culture that should not have pathfinding at all. After all, who knows how long Frodo and Sam might have staggered lost through Emyn Muil without Sméagol to guide them out?

Gondorian Captain
This is the one card coming off the X-List upon the release of Shadows. We didn't really have it in for the Gondorian Captain when he was added to the X-List a few months ago. Unfortunately, his combination with Base of Mindolluin from Mount Doom was just too powerful to ignore.

We knew the adventure path would be changing with the release of Shadows (as it has at the beginning of every new block so far), thus removing Base of Mindolluin from the Standard and Open tournament environments. For this reason, there was some consideration given to the possibility of doing nothing about either card and waiting four months for the situation to resolve naturally. Ultimately, however, we decided the best thing to do would be to add Gondorian Captain to the X-List for a short time. Once the reason for his X-ing was gone, he could be brought back. When Shadows releases, that time will have come.

Paths Seldom Trodden
Úlairë Nelya, Lieutenant of Morgul
Dark Places
Grimbold, Marshal of Rohan

These four cards are not being added to the X-List, but they are going to suffer a hit at the hands of some rules changes effective upon the release of Shadows.

I'll be talking about exactly how the new adventure path in Shadows will work in an upcoming article on decipher.com. For now, the crucial thing know (which may whet the appetites of some of you) is that sites will no longer have site numbers printed on the cards. Players will have control over what site comes up on the adventure path, and when. A site will take on its site number (for purposes of roaming, and other such things) by virtue of being placed on the site path. While they're sitting around in your adventure deck, sites don't have a number at all.

Consequently, these four cards – each of which has the ability to trade a site on the adventure path with a site that has the same site number in your adventure deck – won't be able to do that any more. The fellowship may be at site 4, but there's no site 4 in your adventure deck or anyone else's, just a variety of sites waiting to get a site number when you play them.

That means if you play Úlairë Nelya, he'll be essentially a fierce minion with no other game text. Dark Places will offer a strength bonus to Moria minions, but nothing more. Grimbold will be a Valiant companion to spot, but otherwise won't do anything another companion can't do. And Paths Seldom Trodden… well, it's basically a blank condition.

Fortunately, all these cards will still retain their complete functionality in Fellowship and King block games. As I said earlier, we feel confident that when you learn how the new adventure path works and see all the strategic possibilities it adds to the game, you'll agree that the loss of these four cards is an easy tradeoff.

So there you have it, your first look at how the existing environment will be transformed by Shadows come November. Check decipher.com regularly as we reveal cards from the set itself.

Evan Lorentz
Decipher Game Designer

Last Updated: Monday, October 11, 2004

August 20, 2009, 08:52:56 AM
Reply #29

Kralik

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Re: Format Rules, Regulations and Red Tape
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2009, 08:52:56 AM »
Very interesting read, ES - thanks!

But... which list has Filibert Bolger?