Author Topic: Another question... (Read 27758 times)

Elessar's Socks · « **Reply #30 on:** January 29, 2009, 05:34:44 AM »

Okay, now I'm confused. I thought you had to respond to each trigger when it happens.

For the sake of argument, let's say the FP player has three cards in play:

F1: "Each time a minion is played, wound a minion."
F2: "Each time a minion is played, remove a burden."
F3: "Each time a minion is played, remove a threat."

The Shadow player has three cards in hand:

S1: "Response: If a minion takes a wound, add a threat."
S2: "Response: If a burden is removed, add a threat."
S3: "Response: If a threat is removed, add a burden."

A minion is played. Are you saying the Shadow player can't respond to any of the FP cards until they're all resolved? I was thinking when F1 is resolved, that's when you can play S1. When F2 is resolved, that's when you can play S2, and so on. And not that you have to wait for F1-3 to resolve before you can play any S1-S3.

Olorin · « **Reply #31 on:** January 29, 2009, 05:42:16 AM »

Although Olorin was the wisest of all Maiar now it seems that he lost his orientation

I would say that to F1 S1 follow... so that there is a change of actions between the shadow player and the free peoples player...
...but I can't combine this exactly to the example with the corsair marauder...

Olorin · « **Reply #32 on:** January 29, 2009, 05:45:21 AM »

perhaps a second try may help us:
my opponent plays Corsair Marauder

I have a card in hand that says: "Response: if a minion is played wound him to death" ... or just "wound him twice" ... etc. main goal is: Marauder gets so much wounds that hie would dy according to his vitality. so there are the actions: 1.) a card is played 2.) response: the minion is about to die
is the possession now about to be discarded?

HawkeyeSPF · « **Reply #33 on:** January 29, 2009, 06:12:00 AM »

the point is that if you were able to wound him enough to kill him because he was played, then his text will also kick in before he hits the discard pile. he was played, his text says "when you play this minion, if you can spot another corsair, you may discard a possession to..." - when you play. he was played. sure, you get to kill him, but i still get to use his text. because he was played.

Thranduil · « **Reply #34 on:** January 29, 2009, 06:20:57 AM »

Quote from: Elessar's Socks on January 29, 2009, 05:34:44 AM

Okay, now I'm confused. I thought you had to respond to each trigger when it happens.

For the sake of argument, let's say the FP player has three cards in play:

F1: "Each time a minion is played, wound a minion."
F2: "Each time a minion is played, remove a burden."
F3: "Each time a minion is played, remove a threat."

The Shadow player has three cards in hand:

S1: "Response: If a minion takes a wound, add a threat."
S2: "Response: If a burden is removed, add a threat."
S3: "Response: If a threat is removed, add a burden."

A minion is played. Are you saying the Shadow player can't respond to any of the FP cards until they're all resolved? I was thinking when F1 is resolved, that's when you can play S1. When F2 is resolved, that's when you can play S2, and so on. And not that you have to wait for F1-3 to resolve before you can play any S1-S3.

I obviously have no idea, I was just following what I understood from your logic!

I think you might have to wait until all those FP cards are played until you can play those Shadow cards, but I don't think that means the trigger is no longer there. I mean, does that actually affect any gameplay in that example? Let's think of a different situation when the order matters.

Say the Free Peoples player has 2 cards:

1) "Each time a minion is played, you may wound that minion."
2) "Each time a minion takes a wound, you may remove

."

and the Shadow player has a card:

1) "Each time a minion is played, you may remove

to draw a card."

The Shadow player plays a minion and the actions that trigger on playing a minion take place in an order decided by the Free Peoples player. Say there was less than

in the pool after playing the minion. Can the Free Peoples player to choose their action to trigger first, then slot in a second triggered action before other actions that triggered on the first event took place?

Assume they can do that. Now there's a new trigger to deal with, the fact that the minion has been wounded and the Free Peoples player gets to remove

. Now when the Shadow player comes to removing

to draw a card, they can't because there's not enough in the pool. Does the Shadow player get to draw a card?

Thranduil

Elessar's Socks · « **Reply #35 on:** January 29, 2009, 07:28:58 AM »

Well, you know what I'd go with.

If the order is right, I think I can finally revise that line to "So yes, you can kill the Marauder before the Shadow player gets the opportunity to discard a possession... not that it helps, because the action must still be resolved." Aah--I'm horrible.

But if the order itself isn't, it seems all this time I thought up was down.

daisukeman · « **Reply #36 on:** January 29, 2009, 07:45:29 AM »

This is too much for me:

Quote from: Elessar's Socks on January 29, 2009, 05:34:44 AM

Okay, now I'm confused. I thought you had to respond to each trigger when it happens.

For the sake of argument, let's say the FP player has three cards in play:

F1: "Each time a minion is played, wound a minion."
F2: "Each time a minion is played, remove a burden."
F3: "Each time a minion is played, remove a threat."

The Shadow player has three cards in hand:

S1: "Response: If a minion takes a wound, add a threat."
S2: "Response: If a burden is removed, add a threat."
S3: "Response: If a threat is removed, add a burden."

A minion is played. Are you saying the Shadow player can't respond to any of the FP cards until they're all resolved? I was thinking when F1 is resolved, that's when you can play S1. When F2 is resolved, that's when you can play S2, and so on. And not that you have to wait for F1-3 to resolve before you can play any S1-S3.

But ok, I'll think about it.

In the Corsair Marauder case, off course he gets to discard a fp posession. If Shadowplay clearly says "..a minion is played..." it means he WAS played.
How come the shadow player will get no effects while paying the cost and ignore the rest of the text of that same card played?
I must say

Quote from: leokula on January 29, 2009, 05:03:18 AM

... there's no way you exert and wound and the shadow player just sit and watch.

has to be the bottom line!

leokula · « **Reply #37 on:** January 29, 2009, 07:52:32 AM »

Cheers daisukeman

Gees, what a mess ur making out of it, ES ...

Tell me one thing: how can you go straight to respond to an exertion and completely ignore a "when you play" statement? If you exerted a minion, means he's already been played, soooo...

let's do the "when u play" before the bloody response action!

Elessar's Socks · « **Reply #38 on:** January 29, 2009, 08:40:22 AM »

Take your pick:

- First trigger: minion (Corsair Marauder) is played.
- FP player: exerts Marauder with Shadowplay.
--- Second trigger: minion is exerted.
--- FP player: wounds Marauder with Unheeded (Marauder is killed).
--- Shadow player: passes.
- Shadow player: discards a possession with Marauder.

Or:

- First trigger: minion (Corsair Marauder) is played.
- FP player: exerts Marauder with Shadowplay.
- Shadow player: discards a possession with Marauder.
--- Second trigger: minion is exerted.
--- FP player: wounds Marauder with Unheeded (Marauder is killed).
--- Shadow player: passes.

You'll note that in either case, a possession is discarded. I was satisfied with that after HawkeyeSPF said yes. Since actions, once triggered, must be resolved even if the source card has been discarded, it doesn't matter if the Marauder leaves play first.

EDIT -

Quote from: leokula on January 29, 2009, 07:52:32 AM

Tell me one thing: how can you go straight to respond to an exertion and completely ignore a "when you play" statement?

Dude, that'd be totally crazy. Enquea LoM exerts. FP player plays 3 Unheeded in a row, and passes. Now you can finally respond to the wounds. Shadow player plays 3 Sweeter Meats in a row. Enquea lives again.

leokula · « **Reply #39 on:** January 29, 2009, 08:52:22 AM »

Quote from: Elessar's Socks

Since actions, once triggered, must be resolved even if the source card has been discarded, it doesn't matter if the Marauder leaves play first.

That's totally not the point

but anyway, this topic is getting ridiculously big for a so simple issue that it's stupid to go on. At least we all agree he can't be killed before discarding the possession.

Elrohir · « **Reply #40 on:** January 29, 2009, 11:59:35 AM »

Here is my explanation

(I like this one

)

When you play corsair marauder, you put the card very slowly on the table. On his way, you choose a posession. Marauder is still approaching the table. Now, you discard a posession. Meanwhile, Corsair Marauder reaches the table.
Know it hits the table and it is played.
Shadowplay triggers.

Thranduil · « **Reply #41 on:** January 29, 2009, 12:01:22 PM »

Quote from: Elrohir on January 29, 2009, 11:59:35 AM

Here is my explanation (I like this one )

When you play corsair marauder, you put the card very slowly on the table. On his way, you choose a posession. Marauder is still approaching the table. Now, you discard a posession. Meanwhile, Corsair Marauder reaches the table.
Know it hits the table and it is played.
Shadowplay triggers.

So the moral of this story is: always play your cards very slowly so that your opponent gets the timing right!

Thranduil

FingolfinFinwe · « **Reply #42 on:** January 29, 2009, 01:42:15 PM »

I usually have to do more than just move slowly. I often will have to flat out tell my opponent to play a card or use an ability against me. Lotr newbies I tell ya!

Elessar's Socks · « **Reply #43 on:** January 29, 2009, 06:02:18 PM »

Here's another example. Gollum wins a skirmish, and the Shadow player has 2 YaLaaT in hand. FP player has Intimidate. If all actions from the trigger "Gollum wins a skirmish" must resolve first, that means the FP player can't step in with Intimidate until both YaLaaT are played.

That also means you can have several companions sitting on the table with 0 vitality, whose fate hasn't been decided until "Gollum wins a skirmish" finishes and "about to take a wound" happens. Or that the Shadow player can't even kill a companion with one vitality, since Intimidate always goes after both YaLaaT (and I don't think you can overkill someone). That sounds totally wrong to me. I think when the Shadow player plays the first YaLaaT, the FP player can respond to that wound. Then the Shadow player can play the second YaLaaT, and the FP player can respond to that wound as well.

Quote from: Fingolfinfinwe on January 29, 2009, 01:42:15 PM

I usually have to do more than just move slowly. I often will have to flat out tell my opponent to play a card or use an ability against me. Lotr newbies I tell ya!

The fastest player should always get the first action. :hey:

HawkeyeSPF · « **Reply #44 on:** January 29, 2009, 06:12:08 PM »

The way you think it should work is correct, because if you "zoom in" to the scenario to look at what exactly happens, even if it is implied by not playing a card, this is what happens:

Gollum wins skirmish
Shadow player plays YaLaaT, wounding a companion (this action must resolve before the shadow player can take another action)
FP player steps in and plays Intimidate, preventing that wound.
Shadow player plays another YaLaaT, wounding a companion
FP passes, not having another Intimidate in their hand, wound sticks
Shadow player passes, not having another YaLaaT in hand
Companion Gollum was skirmishing now gets their wound(S) for losing the skirmish.

Got it?