About the AUSTRIAN Format

[Olorin]

*******************************************************************************************************************************************************
Hi guys,

if you want to allow all cards of all sets for a tournament game (except some x-listed cards) you choose EXPANDED Format - but there is a catch: some broken combos like e.g. Mumak Commander GATS and Hate are possibly... could be annoying...
wanna have a more fair game?
wanna let join most players to a tournament? (players with only cards from the fellowship block, players with only cards from the newer sets, players with nearly all cards)

I have invented a format, which makes all that possible - and this format has already been prooved in real life, in real tournaments (e.g. European Tournament in Germany 2008) - everyone liked it very much!

So, how does it work? Here's the description:

*******************************************************************************************************************************************************************

1.) ALL CARDS FROM ALL SETS ARE ALLOWED (except those listed on the x-list of Austrian Format)

2.) THE PARTS OF YOUR DECKS (free peoples/shadow) HAVE TO BE CONSIDERED SEPARATELY

     --> one site of your deck may consist of one of the following: Cards from set 1-10 OR 7-19
     --> EXCEPTION: set 9, 14, 16, 19 and WETA COLLECTION MAY ALWAYS BE USED
     --> any kind of Alternative Ringbearer or "The One Ring" may also alwys be used
     --> only "new" sites from set 11 and later are allowed

It is that easy.
Some examples for decks in AUSTRIAN Format:

- Ringbound Hobbits (set 7-19) with Forest Nazgul (set 7-19) - this deck is also Standard (The One Ring, Isildur's bane, may be used)
- Hunter Elves (set 7-19) with Twilight Nazgul (set 1-10) - this deck is not Standard, it is not Expanded, it is Austrian Format (Wraith Collection may be used in the Nazgul-part).
- Ringbound Ranger (set 1-10) with Moria (set 1-10) - for Moria, The Balrog, Demon of Might (set 19) may be used

*******************************************************************************************************************************************************************

If there is any question left, please do not hesitate to ask and I will be happy to help you.
The X-list for this format will follow soon.

So, I think we need some deck proposals here... 

[Olorin]

X-List:

Aggression
Aragorn, Heir to the White City
Courtyard Parapet
Demoralized
Final Account
Galadriel, Lady of Light
Galadriel, Lady of the Golden Wood
Galadriel, Lady Redeemed
Gimli, Dwarf of the Mountain-race
Horn of Boromir
Namarie
Madril, Defender of Osgiliath
Memories of Darkness
Mordor Fiend
Orkish Smith
Sam, Son of Hamfast
Steadfast Champion
Sting
Strange-Looking Men

R-List

A Talent for not Being Seen
Bill Ferny, Swarthy Sneering Fellow
Flaming Brand
Forces of Mordor
Frying Pan
Get on and Get Away
No Stranger to the Shadows
Ottar, Man of Laketown
Ulaire Nertea, Messenger of Dol Guldur
The Shire Countryside
Legolas, Dauntless Hunter
Into the West

[ephen]

why is Legolas, Dauntless Hunter R-listed, doesn't seem to hurt its effectiveness.

[Olorin]

right point... well... I delete him from r-list...

[legolas3333]

the shire countryside on the R-list allows infinite gandy

[Olorin]

which gandy? which loop?

[thewitchhunter]

Nice work Olorin :-)

At last there is a description of the Austrian Format. Read a lot of this format but never found any rules for it...

Do you mind, if I copy those information to the approtiate format rules section of Nine-Walkers 2.0?

[Olorin]

Nice work Olorin :-)

At last there is a description of the Austrian Format. Read a lot of this format but never found any rules for it...

Do you mind, if I copy those information to the approtiate format rules section of Nine-Walkers 2.0?

Yeah, do it... though I think most of them should know that format very well... but it won't hurt

[TheJord]

the shire countryside on the R-list allows infinite gandy

You need Erland for this loop and he is from set 11, and could not be in a FP deck that had a card from set 3.

[Gil-Estel]

someone should sticky this....

[Olorin]

yeah...

by the way... Saruman Keeper of Isengard and Savagery to match their number have been legalized from begin on in this format to keep old shadows competitive to new fellowships...

[thewitchhunter]

Is this ruling about ringbearers just for alternative ringbearers or is Frodo also always playable in any version?

[Olorin]

Is this ruling about ringbearers just for alternative ringbearers or is Frodo also always playable in any version?

no, this is just for alternative ringbearers...

[Enola]

the shire countryside on the R-list

Sorry About Everything + 2* The Shire Countryside + Birthday Present -> (infinite loop) heal all your fellowship

[Gil-Estel]

Not infinitive....you need to get back Birthday present. You could do nice things with it, but as infinitive as Erland it isn't....

[TheJord]

The Shire Countryside is R-listed so no 2x and Birthday Present lets the Shadow player make the choice, so I would pick something else. Not sure what you mean G-E, Birthday Present is a Condition

[Gil-Estel]

so I found out.....

[Enola]

The Shire Countryside is R-listed so no 2x and Birthday Present lets the Shadow player make the choice, so I would pick something else. Not sure what you mean G-E, Birthday Present is a Condition

Birthday Present : If the Free Peoples player has only one event (or up to four copies of the same event, but no other events) in his or her discard pile, that event is taken into hand.



I just drew your attention to the fact that in your Movie Block X-list on this forum, there is nothing against this infinite loop.......

[legolas3333]

the shire countryside on the R-list allows infinite gandy

You need Erland for this loop and he is from set 11, and could not be in a FP deck that had a card from set 3.

ooh missed that

[ephen]

The combo would still allow you to move wounds from companion to companion with just the one shire countryside. not sure how useful that is but its something.

[TheJord]

Could you explain the placing of Into the West on the R-list?

[SomeRandomDude]

someone should sticky this....

Pardon me. Been a tad busy lately what with graduation and all.

Thread stickied. ~NB

[Olorin]

@Elrohir: Please stop list your own X- or R-lists here in that thread - I know which cards are onto the X-list or R-list because I invented the format... and so I say what is the X-list or R-list! Your list refer to some suggestions for a german party whose suggestions I do not share.

@TheJord: concerning Into the west... I guess, you're right that putting that card onto the r-list won't influence its effectiveness... so I will remove from the list. - Namarie definitely stays onto the X-list!

[Olorin]

X-List:

Aggression
Aragorn, Heir to the White City
Courtyard Parapet
Demoralized
Final Account
Galadriel, Lady of Light
Galadriel, Lady of the Golden Wood
Galadriel, Lady Redeemed
Gimli, Dwarf of the Mountain-race
Horn of Boromir
Namarie
Madril, Defender of Osgiliath
Memories of Darkness
Mordor Fiend
Orkish Smith
Sam, Son of Hamfast
Steadfast Champion
Sting
Strange-Looking Men

R-List

A Talent for not Being Seen
Bill Ferny, Swarthy Sneering Fellow
Flaming Brand
Forces of Mordor
Frying Pan
Get on and Get Away
No Stranger to the Shadows
Ottar, Man of Laketown
Ulaire Nertea, Messenger of Dol Guldur
The Shire Countryside

Legolas Dauntless Hunter and Into the west have been removed from the r-list.

Still any problems with The shire countryside on the r-list?

So, then we have now everything to set up new exciting decks... common! Let's get started, let's get do it... further decks in that format - thanks to G-E for his first comments!

[legolas3333]

Still any problems with The shire countryside on the r-list?

nope cause i didn't realize before that eralnd can't be played in combination

[SomeRandomDude]

It appears that there's some conflict on the X-list, so default to the typically accepted X-list, and then you can put your house rules on it.

[King89]

Namarie has to be on the x-list, no discussion.

[Kralik]

I just drew your attention to the fact that in your Movie Block X-list on this forum, there is nothing against this infinite loop.......

Very clever setup! Though...

1) It would output some twilight. (Nevermind, misread the numbers)
2) Movie X-list is from Decipher themselves...

I love The Shire Countryside to death, but this is a good reason to see it R-listed (at least) for Movie. On the other hand, I think it's better to simply agree not to play with or exploit infinite loops like this one. Perhaps limit it to playing Sorry About Everything no more than once per turn.

[Enola]

I just drew your attention to the fact that in your Movie Block X-list on this forum, there is nothing against this infinite loop.......

Very clever setup! Though...

1) It would output some twilight. (Nevermind, misread the numbers)
2) Movie X-list is from Decipher themselves...

I love The Shire Countryside to death, but this is a good reason to see it R-listed (at least) for Movie. On the other hand, I think it's better to simply agree not to play with or exploit infinite loops like this one. Perhaps limit it to playing Sorry About Everything no more than once per turn.

Legolas talked about a Shire Countryside loop, so I thought it was time to learn you that....

Yeap, you can R-list it, but it would be the only card in the R-list .

X-list is there to prevent infinite loop and overpowerfull deck, I think it's the case here....

[TheJord]

Enola is correct, the X-list is to stop devastating infinite loops and abusable cards. Namarie is easily dealt with as it is a condition, but some people dont like it as it gets used A LOT.

[Kralik]

That is disturbing, but I wish there was another way to deal with it besides banning...

Birthday Present and Sorry about Everything aren't cards I use often, but it seems that you could also use them to peel unlimited burdens with a certain other card. If any card had to go I'd ditch SaE and keep TSC. NFFatRoD mostly replaces SaE anyway.

[FingolfinFinwe]

Why not restrict Namarie rather than ban?  "Restrict" is one per deck right?

[Elrohir]

The idea of this Format is to allow old cards aswell as new cards. The second part (7-19) is exactly the same as standard. Furthermore, the great advantage is that this Format is easy and simple.

So I do not understand, why Olorin suddenly ban cards. Namarie is an important countercard against Deceit. Changing rules now, just out of thin air, make this Format not appealing, just more complicate.

Namarie was never agreed to be restricted or x-listed!

@Elrohir:I know which cards are onto the X-list or R-list because I invented the format...

  Are you sure? I thought we had an agreement which cards are allowed and which not. I beg you not to discriminate innocent cards like Into the west, just because you do not like them

Actually, part 1-10 is ruled with preshadow standard lists, part 7-19 is ruled with the current standard lists.
So, there are no exceptions, subjectif rules or any other kind of confusing stuff.

[TheJord]

I dont think everyone will ever be truly 'happy' with a particular X-list... X'ing cards means you have basically given up on that card being balanced and playable.

On a side note, who plays condition heavy standard Shadows anyway? I dont, because you will lose!

[SomeRandomDude]

Okay, this is getting a bit out of hand.

Olorin- we understand you invented the format. It sounds very interesting and very cool. I like it. But the game belongs to the players, and not one particular person.

I say that you have two versions of the format: 1 using the PPE X-list, which is the most widely accepted "fair-format" X-list, and then a second using the Movie Block and Standard X-list.

[King89]

ladies and gentlemen,

no offence to all of you, and i know that many of you play LotR almost many years, but i assume that most of you never faced a gil-galad, hkotn + namarie + leaving forever + archery hunter elfs combo, which is or was perfect seted up. this fellowship cannot be stoped easily, rather nearly by nothing. i made the experience that direct damange shadow is the best way to break them, condition: a very good draw! but even these shadow cards are realy much worth and a lot of player cannot get them 'cause they are way to expensive (saruman, sos; deceit, not this time! and so on...)
so i ask you a question: what shall these players do? right - nothing.

the second point (added to gay-galad and his "homo friends") why i'm a little bit p*** of is, that olorin invented a brilliant format which is close to be perfect and the first thing people do is to charge about some points. criticism is useful, when it's justified. in lotr, let me tell you guys, won't  be a perfect format ever, because everyone has different opinions about the strength of certain cards, combos, fun and so on.
it's ballanced*, so please keep it in this way - no one forces you to play it!


edit*i can appraise it, because we play it since 1 1/2 years.



these were my 2 cents...
King89

[Smeagollum]

About infinite loops, Why don't we agree on a ruling on that. It's better to make a ruling for it then x- or r- cards.

Something like if an infinnite loop occurs you may only use this loop 1 time.

[King89]

About infinite loops, Why don't we agree on a ruling on that. It's better to make a ruling for it then x- or r- cards.

Something like if an infinnite loop occurs you may only use this loop 1 time.

... doesn't work. the rulings must be written down, so that all players, also those who aren't members of this forum, have an access to them. a x-/r-list can be printed.

[Olorin]

I just drew your attention to the fact that in your Movie Block X-list on this forum, there is nothing against this infinite loop.......

Very clever setup! Though...

Thanks!

Why not restrict Namarie rather than ban?  "Restrict" is one per deck right?

This won't play a roll. Namarie can be replayed from the discard pile and meanwhile all Goblin amories, all deceits, all goblin hordes, etc - simply all shadow conditions are discarded... or in the regroup all elven conditions are replayed from the discard pile (ancient blade, etc.) - and this is repeated site by site by site bye site... r-list won't help anything... X-list is a must for Namarie.

Okay, this is getting a bit out of hand.

Olorin- we understand you invented the format. It sounds very interesting and very cool. I like it. But the game belongs to the players, and not one particular person.

I say that you have two versions of the format: 1 using the PPE X-list, which is the most widely accepted "fair-format" X-list, and then a second using the Movie Block and Standard X-list.

Thanks NB. Your suggestion sounds logically - BUT: we need ONE X-/R-list for that format. We all know decipher made a lot of mistakes - especially in the later sets. The format ruled by my idea just sounds so best and simple.
And you're right - the game belongs to the players... so anyone may play as he or she wants - but if you play a format "AUSTRIAN FORMAT" it would be as listed here.
Of course I am open for any other suggestions concerning everything... but first, I want that everybody understand how it works - the set up is simple and nearly perfect as I think.

Enola is correct, the X-list is to stop devastating infinite loops and abusable cards. Namarie is easily dealt with as it is a condition, but some people dont like it as it gets used A LOT.

Namarie is not just a conditon which you just discard and don't see again --> Gil-gald HkofN
Namarie kill decks - I want that older shadows like Moria, etc. also have got a chance - Namarie destroys decks - I don't understand why you don't realize the brokeness of that card.
Namarie doesn't only discard ALL conditions easily... it can therefore decide a game (e.g. condition based shadows).
Namarie doesn't only discard ALL conditions easily... as it is a cards where - when played - are added so much tokens (not just one...)... so many other conditions can be replayed (take up the bow, elven marksmanship, ancient blade, leaving forever, and further Namarie).
Elven hunters are already overpowered - or do you think that Rumil and Orophin decks with an excellent threat removal machine (into the west), healing (farwell to lorien, nenya, etc.), condition discard and condition replay engine is balanced? infinite direct damage...

I thougtht about this format and it is good as it is. If anyone have other wishes how an X-list should look like it won't work.
I also know why Elrohir started here a public discussion - he plays Namarie... I know his decks very well.

But I don't like further discussions on Namarie.

The format is simple to understand... only a few cards are on X- or R-list... and again... the format is simple. It allows to play nearly everything (like expanded) without beeing broken - and expanded is broken.

If anyone has ideas on other cards than Namarie on the X- or R-list you could post it here... perhaps someone gives even reason to put a card onto that list (other infinite loops which I didn't consider) - then I would like to know...

...and how about The shire countryside now? Is there a problem of infinite loop now?

and especially to you Elrohir: no further discussions about Namarie please.  Be happy Gil is not banned and there are other cards that replay a lot elven conditions in the regroup. - fine - Ende - finito!

[TheJord]

I dont know about you, but my Elven Hunters have regularly been killed by Uruk Hunters. Saruman, AotDL + White Hand Guard + Ugluk, Ugly Fellow at Rohan Uplands. No conditions...

[Olorin]

I dont know about you, but my Elven Hunters have regularly been killed by Uruk Hunters. Saruman, AotDL + White Hand Guard + Ugluk, Ugly Fellow at Rohan Uplands. No conditions...

If Uruks don't want to get some wounds... just discard them... discard them all in archery... --> using one or two (or if you are very luckily 3) take up the bow and discard them... so, if you got two of them and 6 archers... which is not to difficult... discard white hand guard... and perhaps Ugluk or Saruman...
the rest one or two minions you can handle easy... you just need be careful not to lose to much comps... because Uruks normally don't have got site manipulation... and this is only one site... and Elven hunters are strong too.

While Rumil SE is skirmishing against a wounded minion he is strength 10. (9 + Hunter 1) - the same strength like Ent Horde or Host of Fangorn - but the ents don't have got the wound ability.
and normal the elves are set up quick (start with rumil and orophin - pull Glorfindel with prancing pony) - exert next site 2 hunters to get gorn (site: play hunter from draw deck... until site 3 you should be set up and have already given the most pool... until the uruks aren't roaming anymore you won't give much pool... so they can't be so much... :-)
but your're right, Jordy... Uruk hunters at that site are not fun - especially with violent hurl :-)

[Smeagollum]

So can a rulingdocumen

About infinite loops, Why don't we agree on a ruling on that. It's better to make a ruling for it then x- or r- cards.

Something like if an infinnite loop occurs you may only use this loop 1 time.

... doesn't work. the rulings must be written down, so that all players, also those who aren't members of this forum, have an access to them. a x-/r-list can be printed.

So can a ruling document 

[Kralik]

...and how about The shire countryside now? Is there a problem of infinite loop now?

Infinite loop to heal all and/or peel all burdens, which could be stopped by either 1) Prohibiting infinite loops (a very simple rule to understand IMO) or 2) X-ing either SaE or TSC. I propose SaE because I loves TSC.

So can a ruling document 

i.e. The top posts of this very thread!

[FingolfinFinwe]

Why not restrict Namarie rather than ban?  "Restrict" is one per deck right?

This won't play a roll. Namarie can be replayed from the discard pile and meanwhile all Goblin amories, all deceits, all goblin hordes, etc - simply all shadow conditions are discarded... or in the regroup all elven conditions are replayed from the discard pile (ancient blade, etc.) - and this is repeated site by site by site bye site... r-list won't help anything... X-list is a must for Namarie.

Yes I suppose you are correct.  I would like to be able to play Namarie... more because I really like the name and picture more than anything .  But I do see the brokenness.  The only way to fix it besides x-listing is an errata.. and that's always annoying to keep track of.

[Smeagollum]

...and how about The shire countryside now? Is there a problem of infinite loop now?

Infinite loop to heal all and/or peel all burdens, which could be stopped by either 1) Prohibiting infinite loops (a very simple rule to understand IMO) or 2) X-ing either SaE or TSC. I propose SaE because I loves TSC.

So can a ruling document 

i.e. The top posts of this very thread!

Who doesn't love TSC!!!!!

[SomeRandomDude]

TSC is broken in more ways than one. TSC is a perpetual "cannot die" card for Hobbits that are probably already packing tons of burden removal.

[Kralik]

TSC is broken in more ways than one. TSC is a perpetual "cannot die" card for Hobbits that are probably already packing tons of burden removal.

In sets 1-10? OP, perhaps, but not really broken.

[FingolfinFinwe]

This format really looks like alot of fun.  I just don't really want to disassemble my 40some decks.
Though it would be very cool to just create a ton of "half-decks" (separate free peoples and shadow) to randomly intermix to give a wide variety of scenarios.

[Olorin]

Yes I suppose you are correct.  I would like to be able to play Namarie... more because I really like the name and picture more than anything .  But I do see the brokenness.

Nice to hear that

This format really looks like alot of fun.  I just don't really want to disassemble my 40some decks.
Though it would be very cool to just create a ton of "half-decks" (separate free peoples and shadow) to randomly intermix to give a wide variety of scenarios.

Yesss! That's great!

TSC is broken in more ways than one. TSC is a perpetual "cannot die" card for Hobbits that are probably already packing tons of burden removal.

In sets 1-10? OP, perhaps, but not really broken.

So, is TSC broken or OP now even in that format? I don't know really... if we come to the conclusion, that it is broken, we have to think about it. but I am not quite sure about it.

[MR. Lurtzy]

TSC is not broken.

[Elrohir]

Olorin, I hope you are not bored if I explain, why old shadows are still competive if facing Namarie - you can pay your attention meanwhile other things...

Old Shadows do have:
Saruman's Power
Goblin Scrabbler
...

If you discard the keycards, even the High King of the Noldor can not get any conditions back! I agree that Namarie is very strong, but other cards are powerfull too! And without Namarie, it is nearly impossible to get rid of nasty Deceit.

Fact is: Rules should be easy and simple, this was your idea of this format, that is, why you cut my set 4-13 idea. And I am fine with it.

But I hate erratas and X-Listing Cards! (Erratas are difficult to handle, by x-listing, you keep further cards away from game - Exactly the opposite of what we were to achieve.

[Kralik]

TSC is not broken.

As previously noted, you can heal your fellowship infinite times every turn in conjunction with SaE and Birthday Present. Removing all burdens is also possible with one other card (I'll let you figure it out )

If you discard the keycards, even the High King of the Noldor can not get any conditions back!

Don't forget the artifact that collects tokens... conditions can come back.

[Elrohir]

So we have come now to a moot point.

[Olorin]

TSC is not broken.

As previously noted, you can heal your fellowship infinite times every turn in conjunction with SaE and Birthday Present. Removing all burdens is also possible with one other card (I'll let you figure it out )

so we need to X-list TSC? ...but it is such a nice card...

If you discard the keycards, even the High King of the Noldor can not get any conditions back!

Don't forget the artifact that collects tokens... conditions can come back.

that's the next point - another elven protection. no real way to get rid of this artifacts.

[...] I agree that Namarie is very strong [...] --> NO! Namarie is not very strong, but BROKEN! broken, broken, broken - understand now?

[SomeRandomDude]

You can disagree, but please be respectful. Condescension is not welcome on the forums.

What I'm going to do is lock this thread, create a couple polls concerning the cards in question and allow the people to vote on it. Whatever is decided will be the format that we'll go off of on these forums.