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Author Topic: Flip cards and the whole "Wizards has killed Magic" debate  (Read 8689 times)

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September 06, 2011, 09:22:34 AM
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FM

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Flip cards and the whole "Wizards has killed Magic" debate
« on: September 06, 2011, 09:22:34 AM »
Magic players whine. This is a fact. They whine a lot more than people playing other games, mainly because MtG is VERY old for a card game, and has a huge fan base, so you can't always please everyone. Also, due to economy issues and fan base growth, the game has undergone several price adjustments over the years, and people still remember when the game was cheaper.
Every time Wizards tries to do something different, a bunch of players will grab their torches and pitchforks, and embark on a "Wizards is going to kill Magic" crusade. Sure, it's bound to happen some day, nothing lasts forever, but really, compare Magic to, oh, say, ANY OTHER trading card game, and you'll quickly see Magic will outlast them all, and that the game is doing fine.
The problem is, of course, psychological. People do not like change, that is a known psychological fact, and everything that knocks you out of your confort zone is bound to make you unhappy at first. However, if they don't do stuff like that every once in a while, new players stop coming to the game after some time, and THAT makes games die.
Also, remember, Wizards usually does not completely nullifies older cards when they print newer ones (which might have helped kill LotR earlier, due to the culture reformulation), they just keep adding to the game. Sure, every once in a while, they slip up, but they always try to fix it. Something is overpowered? Print countermeasures. Still not good enough? Bring in the ban ax.
The latest crusade from the Magic Community has been the flip cards coming out with Innistrad. For those of you not familiar with the concept, it shows cards transforming, to capture the flavor of werewolves and vampires, so when the trigger takes place, the card is flipped, and the other side of the card has different statistics, even color sometimes; it's a whole new card to play with.
What most people are complaining about is in Drafts, where those will probably be replaced by the God-awful Checklist cards so people can't see the back of your card.
As the first argument, I'm compelled to answer it first: walls. Ever seen a domino championship? Yeah, it works. Just get a small L-shaped piece of whatever material you want, and make players look at their cards behind them (and online, the problem does not exist, of course). Yeah, shocker, U$2.00 solves all your problems, who knew, right?
Then, we have the complaints about having to take the cards out of the sleeves every time to flip them.
Sure, this is a pain, but how about, oh, say, you make "tokens" of the OTHER SIDE of your flip cards? Keep them sleeved over a land card or whatever, and simply pop them from inside your deckbox and over the transformed card when it transforms (or, of course, get 8 copies of every card, depending on how geeky you are). Oh, wow, look at that, U$0.10 a card solves the problems again!
Then, they have the complaints that people won't be able to play without sleeves anymore. For this, I say: really? Casual playes don't give a dire rat's #$&*@! if you can see the back of a card, and tournament players SHOULD play with sleeves in the first place anyway. Also, sleeves are ridiculously cheap now, since a million companies are making them.
Personally, I think the flip cards are kinda weird to look at, since I recognize they take me out of my confort zone, but I think it's actually a way better idea than the old flip cards, and I think people should give Wizards some credit for producing the awesome game we all like, and rest asured that they WILL adress any issues that arise, so that it won't be clunky at all to play with them, so, before going on a crusade complaining that, basically, they changed something slightly and your narrow mind can't think of a single way to get the same results, doing the same thing, with something that is not the same object anymore, try to think about it a little, give it some time, and maybe, just maybe, it might be fun and not ruin Magic after all.

F. M.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 09:27:32 AM by FM »

September 06, 2011, 03:39:35 PM
Reply #1

lem0nhead

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Re: Flip cards and the whole "Wizards has killed Magic" debate
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2011, 03:39:35 PM »
Well said FM I echo everything you said. Personally I think the flip cards are ace. Shame most of em suck but fantastic idea no matter. I like the ludovic guy though! 13/13 trampler. Its going in one of my edh decks regardless!
Ban shampoo, demand real poo.
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September 06, 2011, 08:53:21 PM
Reply #2

Air Power

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Re: Flip cards and the whole "Wizards has killed Magic" debate
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2011, 08:53:21 PM »
didn't they manage to make flip cards that still had a normal back in, oh, 2005?  Maybe 2006?

Feels like a decision indented to provoke controversy (and therefore sales) on WotC's part.
"If the world becomes pagan and perishes, the last man left alive would do well to quote the Iliad and die." -G.K. Chesterton, The Everlasting Man

September 07, 2011, 01:43:13 AM
Reply #3

lem0nhead

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Re: Flip cards and the whole "Wizards has killed Magic" debate
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2011, 01:43:13 AM »
That was "rotate cards" lol essentially. This is actually a flip over. Represents transforming quite well.
Ban shampoo, demand real poo.
That's like having "Some Who Ride Ponies" as a Rohan follower. ~ Dain Ironfoot.

September 07, 2011, 11:30:16 AM
Reply #4

FM

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Re: Flip cards and the whole "Wizards has killed Magic" debate
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2011, 11:30:16 AM »
didn't they manage to make flip cards that still had a normal back in, oh, 2005?  Maybe 2006?

Feels like a decision indented to provoke controversy (and therefore sales) on WotC's part.

And that design, during Kamigawa block, was a mess, the cards were difficult to read, and when a turn took a little bit longer, if one of them was tapped, sometimes they ahd trouble telling which side was active. This is actually much, much more cleaner. Weird, sure, until we get used to it, but still cleaner.

September 07, 2011, 01:34:59 PM
Reply #5

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Re: Flip cards and the whole "Wizards has killed Magic" debate
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2011, 01:34:59 PM »
Also, it is now possible to get two rares in a pack, since every Innistrad pack will contain at least one flip card.

September 07, 2011, 01:39:59 PM
Reply #6

FM

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Re: Flip cards and the whole "Wizards has killed Magic" debate
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2011, 01:39:59 PM »
Well, then I guess it's possible to get THREE rares now, since foils have been, for a while, replacing a common, and so it was already possible. Still awesome, though.

September 08, 2011, 04:50:17 AM
Reply #7

leokula

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Re: Flip cards and the whole "Wizards has killed Magic" debate
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2011, 04:50:17 AM »
MTG has so many problems, flip cards are just one of them. I think flip cards are bad because it's just bad logistics. I absolutely hate the idea to flip cards inside the sleeves, sounds more amateur than any other design in any other cardgame I've ever played or seen.

But that's not all... the "ludevic whatever" card is same as Dark Depths, but done with a flip card... how is that new? So why going through all the hassle to make flip cards if you are doing another card that turns into something else as you've already done?

Shame most of em suck but fantastic idea no matter. I like the ludovic guy though! 13/13 trampler.

What about.... a land that turns into a 20/20 indestructible flyer?? Oops, that's not Innistrad, that's coldsnap several years ago...

Thing is, it's not a really new mechanic... it's just a gimmick, a very slight twist on old mechanics, and not done in an elegant fashion.

Now seriously LOL... keeping those proxies they made for flip cards in your deck so when you play you get the real card from ur pocket... man that sounds lame!! Imagine playing with 20 flip cards in a werewolf deck... you can't even recall what the card does in ur hand to make a better decision, imagine you with a hand with 4 of those cards, thinking, "what should I play"...

Gees, if you guys think that this is a good move by Wizards, congratulations! You are real MTG fans  \:D/

September 08, 2011, 08:41:10 PM
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Re: Flip cards and the whole "Wizards has killed Magic" debate
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2011, 08:41:10 PM »
Dude, don't be so negative. If you don't like them, there are plenty of other cards to play with.
Oh, and btw, if I had a werewolf deck, I'd probably memorize the cards pretty quickly. God knows I've memorized enough lore...  :)'

September 09, 2011, 04:24:25 AM
Reply #9

FM

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Re: Flip cards and the whole "Wizards has killed Magic" debate
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2011, 04:24:25 AM »
Indeed, most serious players will know what a bunch of cards they're not even playing with do, it's not hard at all to keep track of the ones you are playing. Also, again, carrying cards "outside" your deck is coomon practice, due to token-making, so it's not a great stretch. And again, that it only if you don't want to actually flip it during a match, which you most certainly can. As for cards being the same, the game is very old, it's just natural designs repeat themselves, the slight changes are what make them nice, and sometimes more fitting within a theme or an idea at the time, instead of simply doing what Decipher did and reprinting the exact same cards changing only the name and culture, making so you couldn't play with the old ones anymore due to culture issues and not even changing the card picture!

September 09, 2011, 05:47:51 AM
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leokula

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Re: Flip cards and the whole "Wizards has killed Magic" debate
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2011, 05:47:51 AM »
If you don't like them, there are plenty of other cards to play with.

ORLY :) I know that, dude lol being playing for nearly 10 years and I'm a legacy player, so I'm aware there are other cards lmao.

BTW I never played Type 2, it doesn't affect me that these bad cards are being released, I'm just commenting on the game's "new" mechanics and how elegant and streamlined Wizards made them lol.

FM, I'm not saying it's absolutely impossible to play with flip cards, I'm just raising the question: is it necessary? All this hassle for something that's been done before in a better way? OK, it's not exactly like marit lage 'cause it can transform back, but I'd chose tokens over flip cards any day.

People talk so much about Wizards innovating with this, truth is they haven't innovated at all, and IMO, Wizards doesn't have the balls to truly innovate and do something that changes Magic, so they keep messing with old stuff and slightly changing them.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2011, 05:55:23 AM by leokula »

September 09, 2011, 09:29:59 PM
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Re: Flip cards and the whole "Wizards has killed Magic" debate
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2011, 09:29:59 PM »
So, uh, how would you innovate? Holographic foils? Cards that spring to life? In card games, gimmicks are innovation.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2011, 09:31:50 PM by Gate Troll »

September 13, 2011, 08:17:35 AM
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leokula

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Re: Flip cards and the whole "Wizards has killed Magic" debate
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2011, 08:17:35 AM »
Well then you are playing the right game  :up:

September 13, 2011, 10:28:29 PM
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Re: Flip cards and the whole "Wizards has killed Magic" debate
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2011, 10:28:29 PM »
Why do all my posts have little -1s next to them? Is this that big of a deal to somebody? I disagree with Leokula, but I haven't smacked him each time he disagreed with me.

September 13, 2011, 10:36:09 PM
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MR. Lurtzy

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Re: Flip cards and the whole "Wizards has killed Magic" debate
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2011, 10:36:09 PM »
I've made it all better.