What are some anti-Elf strategies? (focus mainly on post-Shadow formats)

[sgtdraino]

Okay, I think those Elves are getting a little too big for their britches! I am starting to see a lot of Elf decks in Expanded, significantly more than I used to, and many are variations on this:

http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,8720.0.html

There are quite a few flavors to this strategy, but the basic premise and basic strategies are pretty much the same:

Use Gil-galad, High King of the Noldor to recycle skirmish events ad infinitum, and play havoc with Elf conditions.
Use Glorfindel, Eldarin Lord to take the threats off.
Use Elven Armaments to make those key companions very hard to take out, and take the bite out of Shadow Archery.
Use Celebring, Elven-smith to get out a key Artifact, and power up your tanks.
Use Woodhall Elf, Exile for massive event card drawing and cycling.
Use Galadriel's Silver Ewer to pump Galadriel and reinforce tokens.
Nenya, Ring of Adamant will probably be used for emergency healing.
There may or may not be Gandalf, Manager of Wizards / Forearmed hijinks.
There might be Gift of the Evenstar, Blessed Light to enable all conditions to be recycled with Gil-galad.
There will probably be 4x copies of Lothlorien Guides (or some other condition removal).
You may well see Still Needed cycled endlessly with each move, using Woodhall Elf, Exile.
You will almost certainly see Cirdan, The Shipwright come out at some point, possibly near the end.
In the meantime, you may well get tag-teamed by the brothers Elladan and Elrohir.
There are occasionally massive loops in Regroup that can remove all threats, all burdens, and draw unlimited cards.

So, how to deal with this?

If the player thinks there is any danger from shotgun Enquea, he'll kill off his Elves down to 5, or simply never play more than 5 while there is any danger. Obviously Gil-galad, High King of the Noldor is the centerpiece of this strategy, so the player will normally protect him with items that add vitality, like Elven Armaments, Aiglos, and/or some version of Vilya... along with Nenya, Ring of Adamant to heal a point off of him if there is ever a surprise. So, you've got Gil-galad, High King of the Noldor sitting out there with 5 or 6 vitality, and the ability to heal a point off him to boot. In other words, you may have to deal 7 wounds (or more) to Gil-galad in order to take him out... and he is of course the biggest tank of the bunch, so you're probably not going to beat him in a fight.

So, how to deal with this? What are some "magic bullet" cards that mess with Elves?
Keep in mind that many of these decks have pretty decent condition removal, so you can't depend on any condition lasting for a long time.
Properly set up, these guys can relatively easily overwhelm The Balrog, Sauron, you name it.
There's Terrible as the Dawn, of course, but that requires you to run pretty heavy Sauron culture, and even then he'll either just discard two of his more expendable Elves, or put on the ring and take the burdens. Not strong enough.
All Life Flees could help as an anti-Follower card, but of course that's only part of the problem.
Loathsome could also help get rid of those Elven Armaments, but again, Gil-galad is most likely using Artifacts.
Discarding their conditions normally doesn't help that much, because either they don't really need them, or they can get them all back again with Gil-galad's text.

So, anybody got any ideas?

[Shelobplayer]

First of all, outrunning these decks is not too hard, you'll very rarely see them doubling in the first few turns, due to the time it requires to set up the combos, possibly get rid of Gamling, etc... Just try to do the double to site 3 in the first turn.

Corsairs in general can do good against it. Corsair Freebooter stealing tokens is nice, Fierce in Despair is far from impossible to pull off, and they also have swarm potential, plus probably the best cycling capability of any shadow side with Under Foot + Corsair War Galley to further improve your chance of outrunning the elves.

Grond is a beating.

Dark Horseman + Saruman, SOS is a problem usually.

Black Land Overlord is one of the most underplayed powerhouses on gemp imo. He is great against almost any deck centered on one companion.

Various swarms are good.

Ninja Gollum is good, although if the elf player goes for Gandalf's Hat Gollum is probably facing some problems (the hat with leaving forever plays around Deceit nicely).

I found early uruk beats crippling multiple times already, the deck is weakest when uruks are the strongest (1st region).

I play Armed For Battle wargs a lot in standard, and they completely obliterate elves, no questions asked (Scouting Orc / Veteran War Chief + Relentless Warg + Mordor Scimitar). Ofc they need some extra tech in expanded to protect themselves vs Madril (Rider's Gear is good enough defense vs most wounding freeps).

[sgtdraino]

First of all, outrunning these decks is not too hard, you'll very rarely see them doubling in the first few turns, due to the time it requires to set up the combos, possibly get rid of Gamling, etc... Just try to do the double to site 3 in the first turn.

This of course depends on how effective their Shadow is. As you've seen, it's generally been pretty tough for me to outrun your deck, because your Shadow is a hard one for me.

Corsairs in general can do good against it. Corsair Freebooter stealing tokens is nice, Fierce in Despair is far from impossible to pull off, and they also have swarm potential, plus probably the best cycling capability of any shadow side with Under Foot + Corsair War Galley to further improve your chance of outrunning the elves.

Grond is a beating.

Good points on the above, although as you know, I have a great propensity for rainbow Shadows (and rainbow Fellowships), because I generally feel like the monocultural stuff tends to have inherent weaknesses versus certain deck types. So, I'm mostly looking for something that is spashable, that you don't necessarily have to base an entire Shadow side around. Tricky, I know.

Dark Horseman + Saruman, SOS is a problem usually.

I play those, but most of the time he just plays enough skirmish events to kill Dark Horseman and Saruman, SOS along with him.

Black Land Overlord is one of the most underplayed powerhouses on gemp imo. He is great against almost any deck centered on one companion.

Requires dedication to Orc Culture.

Various swarms are good.

Maybe Orc Troll or Tentacles. I feel like he could deal with almost anything else via his massive skirmish event cycling/recycling.

Ninja Gollum is good, although if the elf player goes for Gandalf's Hat Gollum is probably facing some problems (the hat with leaving forever plays around Deceit nicely).

I think this is closer to the mark. More on this below.

I found early uruk beats crippling multiple times already, the deck is weakest when uruks are the strongest (1st region).

I could see that working well, though here again probably a mostly monoculture mix. Although I've seen Uruk Hunters mix with Orc culture pretty well.

I play Armed For Battle wargs a lot in standard, and they completely obliterate elves, no questions asked (Scouting Orc / Veteran War Chief + Relentless Warg + Mordor Scimitar). Ofc they need some extra tech in expanded to protect themselves vs Madril (Rider's Gear is good enough defense vs most wounding freeps).

Yeah, IMO they are too weak against other deck types.

I think the best answer I've come up with so far, is Master Broke His Promise. That card has the potential to deal out a bunch of surprise wounds in Regroup, so long as you can keep Gollum uninjured until then. It costs 5, but the Gil-galad deck tends to generate quite a bit of twilight during the course of its turn. A full-on Ninja Gollum deck should be able to keep Gollum healthy, and in a deck that pairs Gollum with other powerful things (like mine), gollum is often overlooked as a threat, in favor of big damage +2 minions.

[Pepi]

One thing that might help is to use Grima, Servant of Another Master and Treachery to disable Gil-Galad and/or Cirdan. I played this in my Throne of Isengard + deceived wizards deck and it helps a lot. Saruman, Agent of the Dark Lord is a pretty cheap and powerful minion, which leaves Grima a lot of tokens for his shinanigance while still being enough effective to put down a companion or two.

[ramolnar]

Quick Comments:
Elves normally don't control the site path, so you can hurt Elves with sites. The no-transfer Follower site stops Woodhall Elf, Exile, probably the most annoying card. Plus there are plenty of other decks that run followers so it doesn't works against other decks.  Steward's Tomb makes things a little tougher for them. Redhorn Pass shuts down the loop for a site, plus other annoying decks. So would Foot of Mount Doom, but that's rather high on the anti-Elf side.

As mentioned above, Wargs are quite fun and do a number to Elves, though Madril just laughs at them. For Dark Horseman, Dark Horseman, Dark Horseman! pumps devoted to keeping Galadriel alive are pumps not used on your main strategy. And there's always Saurman's Power, which also shuts down a lot of the tricks for a site.

I don't agree about Master Broke his Promise - leaving 5 twilight is pretty obvious to me, though maybe not to others. The problem with Treachery is that Gil-galad does the most damage in regroup, after it expires. Grima, Servant of Another Master is nice, but there are other Grimas I need as well, such as Wormtongue. But it's a thought.

[Shelobplayer]

Dark Horseman in itself is not really a threat to Galadriel as she can easily go to str 10 without pumps (3 base +1 ring +2 Silver Ewer +2 Armaments +2 Celebring), and if it is against a Gandalf, MoW version, then Glimpse of Fate will take care of him, you need to be able to pump him to at least 11 (beats Galadriel or Gandalf + Glimpse). Saruman, SoS is the bare minimum you need I think, and you should run Saruman anyway if you run Dark Horseman imo.

Servant of Another Master is a card I always wanted to play, but right now I have too much fun with Chief Counselor. It is a good and versatile card choice regardless.

[sgtdraino]

One thing that might help is to use Grima, Servant of Another Master and Treachery to disable Gil-Galad and/or Cirdan.

I think Grima is a great suggestion! I currently favor Wormtongue, but I could replace one of those copies with this version. I'd actually be capable of recycling him, too. The event I'm not as crazy about, since it's only a one-shot.

Quick Comments:
Elves normally don't control the site path, so you can hurt Elves with sites. The no-transfer Follower site stops Woodhall Elf, Exile, probably the most annoying card. Plus there are plenty of other decks that run followers so it doesn't works against other decks.  Steward's Tomb makes things a little tougher for them. Redhorn Pass shuts down the loop for a site, plus other annoying decks. So would Foot of Mount Doom, but that's rather high on the anti-Elf side.

None of those sites are options for my deck, except for Tomb (which it already has). But even so, you have a great point. Maybe I'd do better with a couple copies of Led Astray.

And there's always Saurman's Power, which also shuts down a lot of the tricks for a site.

Meh, I run heavy SP, but I don't feel like it helps me much against these kinds of decks.

I don't agree about Master Broke his Promise - leaving 5 twilight is pretty obvious to me, though maybe not to others.

When pulled off successfully, it's pretty impressive. If they're using the wrong ring, it can even end the game. Still, Led Astray might ultimately serve me better.

Dark Horseman in itself is not really a threat to Galadriel as she can easily go to str 10 without pumps (3 base +1 ring +2 Silver Ewer +2 Armaments +2 Celebring), and if it is against a Gandalf, MoW version, then Glimpse of Fate will take care of him, you need to be able to pump him to at least 11 (beats Galadriel or Gandalf + Glimpse). Saruman, SoS is the bare minimum you need I think, and you should run Saruman anyway if you run Dark Horseman imo.

Yeah, my experience with this, is that Galadriel simply pumps up, murders Dark Horseman, and takes out Saruman, SoS along with him. I only have room for one, and no way to get it back.

[Zielak]

Wargs are murdering Elves no matter what, maybe save for 4x Hosts of Last Alliance recycled with Gil-Galad. Ninja with 3-4x Deceit is a strong choice as well.  The only way to discard Gift of an Evenstar is Grond, in fact both of them - if you run any Orc culture minions, go for the second - if you'll draw it early, FP's player is going to lose key cards without possibility to get them back. Elves have no possession discard, so if they don't run Gandalf with Roll of Thunder, you're safe. As long as the Leaving Forever combo isn't set up you can try Lackey bomb.

[sgtdraino]

The only way to discard Gift of an Evenstar is Grond, in fact both of them - if you run any Orc culture minions, go for the second - if you'll draw it early, FP's player is going to lose key cards without possibility to get them back.

Only if they double. If they see Grond out, they'd be fools to do that before they're set up. And they're probably not doubling until they get set up anyway. Original Grond is a strong choice, though of course it requires significant dedication to Sauron culture. Plus Gil-galad is the only true key to the deck, most of the stuff you can get with Grond isn't really that vital.

[Zielak]

And that's the point. They won't double, so you can outrun them, especially if you are going to play your rangers If they don't play Elrond WtH or On your Doorstep, they can't bring cards other than events and conditions back. That means you can delay or completely discard their Gil-Galad, Cirdan or Gift of Evenstar. If you want to keep your rainbow shadow working, I believe it's only way to go. I mean, you have Gothmog to play it, I'd add also a Black Gate Sentry or another annoying Orc minion, perhaps the one that removes threats to lower strength? He could block a tank or other annoying companion for one skirmish because you can add a lot of threats with Gollum and Cantea.

[jdizzy001]

I don't play expanded (so take what I say with a grain of salt). Discard. Discard is the best antithesis to any deck. Get rid of their deck before they can use it. Discard, discard, discard. If you really want to be a jerk, use elven discard couple it with a shadow discard deck for maximum efficiency.

[sgtdraino]

What you say is probably true in most other formats... but in Expanded some people run very LARGE decks. For example, my deck is 108 cards. When I go up against a discarding deck, often it just seems to make my deck work even better!

[Legion]

I find discard to be very unreliable in Expanded (and everywhere to be honest).  I've just about made it work with a shadow using Shapes Slowly Advancing to bounce companions back into hand, and then using Mellon! to discard them during my FP turn, but it just feels dirty.  Destroys Hobbits, though.

[jdizzy001]

Yeah, big decks would be problematic.

[Zielak]

Legion, this isn't going to work vs elves eitherl.a It's simple, they will discard all conditions too quickly. In fact, elves can do it infinitely. If they're set up, you can't do anything.

[Legion]

No, I was saying discard is generally a bad strategy.  That deck is the only one I've made that has any chance against anything (though as you point out, not elves).  Personally I've found tentacles to be very effective against these guys since if you play nothing the FP is forced to choose between stopping and having a hand clogged with Elven Events, or doubling and risking one card in your hand being able to use 40 twilight, to get out 17 minions.  It takes a lot of events to take that out.

Watching games, I don't see that elves have much in the way of healing.  I may be wrong, but wounding looks to be very effective against them.

[sgtdraino]

Lack of healing is their one weakness, mitigated somewhat by Nenya, Ring of Adamant. The caveat is, wounds directed at the ring-bearer (via archery for example) don't work so good, since he can take them as burdens, and potentially remove all burdens in regroup. One thing that does work is a well-timed rapid reload, keeping in mind you probably won't get to use it more than once.