Powerful Guide revisited

[Shelobplayer]

Updated the list with what I'm currently playing offline. This is my go to deck when not playing on GEMP and its various iterations have served me for nearly 15 years now. The reason for the update is that I added 2 new tech to its arsenal in the form of Sauron, Dark Lord of Mordor and Keep Your Forked Tongue.

Ring-bearer: Frodo, Old Bilbo's Heir
Ring: The One Ring, The Great Ring

Adventure deck:
Buckland Homestead
Steward's Tomb
Cavern Entrance
Neekerbreekers' Bog
Mithlond
Falls of Rauros
Dammed Gate-stream
Mount Doom
Sirannon Ruins

Free Peoples Draw Deck:
1x Erland, Dale Counselor
2x Gandalf, Powerful Guide
1x Grimbeorn, Beorning Chieftain
1x Quickbeam, Bregalad
1x Radagast, The Brown
1x Treebeard, Enraged Shepherd
1x Smeagol, Always Helps
1x Merry, In the Bloom of Health
1x Pippin, In the Bloom of Health
4x Barliman Butterbur, Prancing Pony Proprietor
1x Bounder
1x The Gaffer, Sam's Father
2x Beorning Axe
1x Glamdring, Foe-hammer
2x Radagast's Herb Bag
1x Shadowfax, Greatest of the Mearas
1x Sting, Elven Long Knife
1x Gandalf's Staff
4x A Wizard is Never Late
1x Deep in Thought
1x Keep Your Forked Tongue
4x Momentous Gathering
1x Roll of Thunder
1x Saved From the Fire
4x Servant of the Secret Fire
2x Speak \Friend\ and Enter
4x Strength of Spirit
1x Traveled Leader
2x Something Slimy
2x Long-stemmed Pipe
1x Perspective
1x Watch and Wait
1x Don't Look at Them
1x Follow Smeagol
1x Gladden Homestead
1x Scouring of the Shire
1x Shadowplay
1x Pallando, Far-travelling One
3x Deagol, Fateful Finder
1x Robin Smallburrow, Shirriff Cock-Robin

Shadow Draw Deck:
1x Gollum, Her Sneak
1x Gollum, Old Villain
1x Gollum, Plotting Deceiver
1x Shelob, Her Ladyship
1x Grima, Chief Counselor
1x Grima, Servant of Another Master
1x Grima, Wormtongue
2x The Balrog, Demon of Might
4x Castamir of Umbar
4x Corsair Boatswain
4x Corsair Lookout
4x Corsair Marauder
4x Corsair Plunderer
1x Southron Leader
1x Sauron, Dark Lord of Mordor
1x Úlairë Enquëa, Lieutenant of Morgul
2x Úlairë Nelya, Third of the Nine Riders
1x Úlairë Nertëa, Dark Horseman
1x Web
4x Black Sails of Umbar
3x Corsair War Galley
2x Ships of Great Draught
4x Captured by the Ring
4x Sudden Strike
3x Saruman's Power
4x Evil-smelling Fens
3x Under Foot

Once again it's an enormous 63/63 deck, yet I haven't had consistency problems with it thanks to all the search effects available. The core of the deck is generic Powerful Guide goodness: Strength of Spirit and Servant of the Secret Fire fueling Powerful Guide and Radagast's Herb Bag with as many triggers as one can want with Erland and Beorning Axe making sure that the events are available.

Some notable tricks:
-this is a SFTF deck with only 1 SFTF, which is enabled by Long-Stemmed Pipe - it has a burn package as well on top of the obvious.
-get an activation out of Falls of Rauros to be able to play a 10th companion
-using Strenght of Spirit to prevent the cost of Shadowplay activations can result in 2 wounds on a minion with Gandalf + Herb Bag, which can prevent "when you play" effects (discarded when played rule)
-2nd Long-Stemmed Pipe can get key events

Example: Corasair Marauder is played, you activate Shadowplay, respond with Strength of Spirit, wound it once with Gandalf and Herb Bag each, thus dies before he would get to use his ability. Now don't forget that you can activate Shadowplay as many times as you want to do this more than once a turn. You wouldn't get an effect out of it the second time, but if you are just looking for a chance to kill minions in the shadow phase with Strength of Spirit, it is there.



-Keep Your Forked Tongue can be bonkers in some matchups. When going for it, having Pallando and Robin Smallburrow is very handy. Both Radagast and Frodo have the Gandalf signet, and Erland can take this event back ad nauseam, making it exceptionally difficult for some strategies (mainly gollum ninja) to touch the FP side. Playing it when killing off a companion to remove all threats without taking wounds is also an exceptionally powerful play

-Sauron, Dark Lord of Mordor is a very potent finisher with this list, often comming to play for 1 or 0 in the 3rd region thanks to Gollum and the corsairs. I would not play a corsair deck without him anymore. I found Sauron so good in fact that I might play a 2nd copy (need to get one first though)

-there are essentially 14 cards that allow grabbing Gandalf on site 1: 4 AWINL, 4 Momentous Gathering, 2 Powerful Guide are the obvious ones. I almost always bid 1 to go first, so Dammed Gate-Stream can allow to Something Slimy into     Long-Stemmed Pipe into Momentous Gathering and then Barliman Butterbur, PPP also becomes a Gandalf enabler (and still gets Perspective, or a 2nd pipe for SFTF)

For Gemp play I would probably add Unequaled Steed due to the overabundance of Too Strong and Terrible, but it's not that abundant in our group (yet).

[sgtdraino]

I figured I provide an up to date sample list for this strategy. It is using a silver bullet kind of gollum/nazgul shadow, with a fairly unusual fellowship build.

Looks brilliant!

Some notable tricks:
-pull Perspective first to prevent shenanigans (with Momentous Gathering or Dammed Gate-Stream into Something Slimy)

I like perspective, kind of like a version of Steward's Legacy. Sting to take threats off, right? No Citadel to Gate, I noticed.

-get Long-Stemmed Pipe second (same method), search for SFTF with it, then reuse it with Barliman to get access to whatever you need

Who do you burn? I imagine you want to keep at least two Hobbits so you can replay Gandalf, and I imagine you want to keep both Ents so you can get the full benefit of Momentus Gathering.

-if Gandalf gets killed, Momentous Gathering can just simply revive him by pulling Sent Back + a fresh copy

Brilliant.

-get an activation out of Falls of Rauros to be able to play a 10th companion

Of course.

-using Strenght of Spirit to prevent the cost of Shadowplay activations can result in 2 wounds on a minion with Gandalf + Herb Bag, which can prevent "when you play" effects (discarded when played rule)

Brilliant. I hate Corsair Marauder, I didn't know there was a way to actually counter him. It's tempting to work this into my own deck... but I don't really see how I could.

Now don't forget that you can activate Shadowplay as many times as you want to do this more than once a turn. You wouldn't get an effect out of it the second time, but if you are just looking for a chance to kill minions in the shadow phase with Strength of Spirit, it is there.

Nice.

So, what are the weaknesses? You mentioned before that The Balrog, Demon of Might + Cavern Entrance was one, what are some other ones?

And question: Might it be a better idea to swap your Treebeard for Treebeard, Keeper of the Watchwood? He could recycle your Long-stemmed Pipe to grab more cards from your deck quicker, which would also enhance your condition discard in Regroup. He can also bring back important cards like Sent Back and Perspective if your opponent somehow manages to ditch them. Picture this: Gandalf gets killed, Sent Back is discarded, but you have Gandalf in hand... Treebeard gets Sent Back and Gandalf out again in that Regroup ready for the double!

[Shelobplayer]

The spotting requirement of Powerful Guide don't specify companions, I can replay him with a hobbit ally + Frodo.

Enraged Shepherd is incredibly powerful in this deck, essentially giving every single minion -1 vitality, and I don't really need more than one Long-Stemmed Pipe in general, the SFTF followed by the first can grab the answer I need against any shadow, assuming that my deck has an answer.

I think it's about time for me to stop sharing the weaknesses of my decks, I don't like playing against them

On the burns and search and various other stuff: I noticed that I play every single game with a different game plan with this deck, the only common point is that I get Perspective first every game. Every shadow requires a different answer with this, different searching tactics, if you assume that Gandalf may die, then yes, try to keep a hobbit or Quickbeam alive, so you can easily revive him with Sent Back, think about what 9 companions you want out in case if you don't get Falls of Rauros. There are more factors than I can list, there is no general strategy guide I can give for this build.

[sgtdraino]

The spotting requirement of Powerful Guide don't specify companions, I can replay him with a hobbit ally + Frodo.

Ah yes, I somehow missed the Bounder when I scanned your list. And you can grab him by burning one of your hobbits, and he is probably harder to kill than your unbound hobbits.

Enraged Shepherd is incredibly powerful in this deck, essentially giving every single minion -1 vitality, and I don't really need more than one Long-Stemmed Pipe in general, the SFTF followed by the first can grab the answer I need against any shadow, assuming that my deck has an answer.

Fair enough. How do you think you fair against Demoralized Bomb? What's your strategy there?

I think it's about time for me to stop sharing the weaknesses of my decks, I don't like playing against them

lol. Hey, I dedicated an entire thread to anti-Madril stuff!

On the burns and search and various other stuff: I noticed that I play every single game with a different game plan with this deck, the only common point is that I get Perspective first every game.

I'm guessing most likely either Quickbeam gets burnt, or one of the unbound hobbits. Everyone else seems too vital to the strategy to me... except maybe Radagast for a quick triple with no downside.

[Shelobplayer]

List updated. 11-1 so far with this version, the only loss was against Little Snuffler (and it was my own mistake...).

Still not sure if Frodo is a better choice for ring-bearer than Bilbo, Consorting with Wizards is very powerful.

Removed Mauhur, Relentless Hunter from the shadow, barely ever found use for him. Added Attea, the Easterling to take down opposing Barlimans.

I consider Shadowfax, Unequaled Steed over GOTM at the moment, sounds like amazing protection for Gandalf. If I add an extra Watch and Wait I should be fine on burden removal (and I barely ever search for GOTM, I don't think it is necessary). Also considering Get on and Get Away (I think it is only R-listed not X-ed, have to double check), maybe even Daddy Twofoot with it, potentially replacing One Good Turn Deserves Another because I never used Dammed Gate-Stream to search for it, and the odds of drawing the single copy is very low. A single copy of Make  Haste might make it into the deck as well to get rid of the 2nd unbound hobbit after the first one is burned.

[Shelobplayer]

Just played this game on gemp:
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=B0r0m1r$5uqxzk72uo9l0apv
Probably the closest game I had with this deck, my opponent had a really cool shadow, and I was making some mistakes as well.
Current record is 21-3, with the 3 losses comming from Little Snuffler, not drawing Gandalf by turn 3, and having to conceed, due to rl stuff.

EDIT: list updated. Considering removing Sent Back, haven't used it even once.

[sgtdraino]

Wow. That might be the most crap I have ever seen on Gimli at once!

[Nowhereman]

I was thinking about the Madril deck and this is what I've concluded. There are several manipulations in the game, even starting in Fellowship block. There is twilight manipulation. Any time you can increase (goblin armories, etc) or decrease (No strangers, bill the pony, etc) the twilight pool to your advantage, you get the upper hand. There is card number manipulation, like dwarves and mordor taking out opponent's decks. There is site manipulation (which is seen most in Expanded). And I'm sure there are others, but here's what I find so fascinating about the Ultimate Madril. It strives (very well) at manipulating card probability. Normally, when building a deck, one applies multiple copies of a single card in order to have more probability of GETTING THAT card in any given game. To manipulate card probability is to scrap the fundamental probability logic and just pull out what you need. Pulling. The Ultimate Madril deck is all about pulling. Minions (whichever suits best), possessions, conditions, characters, etc. I find probability manipulation to be one of the most effective and also one of the most confusing ideas in the game. Because one card triggers another and that one triggers another. On the surface, the Ultimate Madril looks like a complete and total mess, like a child got onto your account and just decided to pick cards he thought were pretty. But, it is intricately designed with (I would imagine) dozens of different combos and counters for a huge variety of decks. Its a completely different ball game-its almost a completely different card game when compared to the simplicity of, say, a dwarf deck. Durin, Damage and De-deck. I am not even sure that Decipher really knew of the range and complexity of its cards when they made them. If you don't mind, I'd like your permission to attempt to play the Ultimate Madril. I'd like to get a better grasp on pulling and finding just the right combos to oppose other decks. 

[sgtdraino]

I was thinking about the Madril deck and this is what I've concluded. There are several manipulations in the game, even starting in Fellowship block. There is twilight manipulation. Any time you can increase (goblin armories, etc) or decrease (No strangers, bill the pony, etc) the twilight pool to your advantage, you get the upper hand. There is card number manipulation, like dwarves and mordor taking out opponent's decks. There is site manipulation (which is seen most in Expanded). And I'm sure there are others, but here's what I find so fascinating about the Ultimate Madril. It strives (very well) at manipulating card probability. Normally, when building a deck, one applies multiple copies of a single card in order to have more probability of GETTING THAT card in any given game. To manipulate card probability is to scrap the fundamental probability logic and just pull out what you need. Pulling. The Ultimate Madril deck is all about pulling. Minions (whichever suits best), possessions, conditions, characters, etc. I find probability manipulation to be one of the most effective and also one of the most confusing ideas in the game. Because one card triggers another and that one triggers another. On the surface, the Ultimate Madril looks like a complete and total mess, like a child got onto your account and just decided to pick cards he thought were pretty. But, it is intricately designed with (I would imagine) dozens of different combos and counters for a huge variety of decks. Its a completely different ball game-its almost a completely different card game when compared to the simplicity of, say, a dwarf deck. Durin, Damage and De-deck. I am not even sure that Decipher really knew of the range and complexity of its cards when they made them. If you don't mind, I'd like your permission to attempt to play the Ultimate Madril. I'd like to get a better grasp on pulling and finding just the right combos to oppose other decks. 

Wow, that's very kind of you to say! You flatter me, sir! Of course, I did have a lot of help making this deck better over the years. I'm incorporated some really great suggestions from a number of different people.

I am a bit surprised that you posted this comment here, and not in the "Ultimate Madril" thread here:

http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,8525.0.html

By all means feel free to try out the deck and play with it! I've seen a few people use the FP side, but I don't think I've ever seen ANYBODY using the Shadow side, which is surprising to me, because I think it's at least as strong as the FP.

You're right, it is all about pulling precisely the thing you need, either from draw deck or discard. A number of players have dubbed cards that do this "search cards," even though there are actual "search" cards in the game that Trackers use, that don't do this.

Enjoy! I look forward to hearing about your adventures!

[Nowhereman]

Ah yes sorry, still getting used to this site. I thought I was in the Madril one.

[ilazul]

-using Strenght of Spirit to prevent the cost of Shadowplay activations can result in 2 wounds on a minion with Gandalf + Herb Bag, which can prevent "when you play" effects (discarded when played rule)

Example: Corasair Marauder is played, you activate Shadowplay, respond with Strength of Spirit, wound it once with Gandalf and Herb Bag each, thus dies before he would get to use his ability. Now don't forget that you can activate Shadowplay as many times as you want to do this more than once a turn. You wouldn't get an effect out of it the second time, but if you are just looking for a chance to kill minions in the shadow phase with Strength of Spirit, it is there.

Wouldn't this exert it, then wound it? Or am I doing this wrong?

shadowplay = 1 exert, Powrful guide = 1 wound, Herb Bag = 1 wound.

Maybe since they're responses the wounds happen first, then it tries to exert a dead minion.

I'm still kinda new so bear with me

[Shelobplayer]

Wouldn't this exert it, then wound it? Or am I doing this wrong?

shadowplay = 1 exert, Powrful guide = 1 wound, Herb Bag = 1 wound.

Maybe since they're responses the wounds happen first, then it tries to exert a dead minion.

I'm still kinda new so bear with me

This is how it goes:
1. Minion played
2. Shadowplay triggered, you pay the cost of exertion
3. Strenght of Spirit is used in respoinse to paying the cost of Shadowplay
4. Powerful Guide and Herb Bag trigger on Strength of Spirit
5. Powerful Guide and Herb Bag effects both go off and wound the minion
6. 2 vitality minion dies, thus discarded when played rule takes effect
7. this is technically when the minion would get the exertion (if it had 4+ vitality it obviously gets it)

[ilazul]

This is how it goes:
1. Minion played
2. Shadowplay triggered, you pay the cost of exertion
3. Strenght of Spirit is used in respoinse to paying the cost of Shadowplay
4. Powerful Guide and Herb Bag trigger on Strength of Spirit
5. Powerful Guide and Herb Bag effects both go off and wound the minion
6. 2 vitality minion dies, thus discarded when played rule takes effect
7. this is technically when the minion would get the exertion (if it had 4+ vitality it obviously gets it)

Yeah that's what I figured, that it would try to exert a dead minion.

Thanks again for your help!

I find this deck does a good bit of a lot of things really well, while being able to search up everything. Even its main weaknesses can be worked around.

The only changes I might be looking into (other than the updated list you showed me) is removing 1 of the smeagol conditions as I never search for them, while having that 2nd long stemmed pipe back would help add some consistency.

Some games when you have to use the 1st long stemmed pipe to grab AWINL /  Momentous to grab Gandalf to begin with, being able to grab a second long stemmed for SFTF would speed up things tremendously.

Remember I am playing multiplayer, so it could be very different for 1 on 1.

[Shelobplayer]

I've been fortunate enough to play this deck offline a lot lately, and made some small, but very significant changes to it.

Keep Your Forked Tongue added to the freeps side - this turns Frodo/Radagast + Erland into exceptionally powerful tanks in some matchups.

Sauron, Dark Lord of Mordor added as a very powerful late game finisher.