Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game

[-Enola-]

Can one of you explain Lavastone Giant to me? I couldn't find the conversation about making him reveal a card from the Free Peoples hand. After the Fellowship phase, one would expect most cards left in the Free Peoples player's hand to be shadow cards. It seems to me he should exert when he adds +2 to the archery total, not the other way around...

It's a strong minion, which will often add a lot to the archery total. But not so often, if the FP player keeps FP events in hand, this minion is much more weaker. This minion promotes the use of FP events.

Btw, the Giants Shadow is a fun Shadow, with some random abilities.

[-Enola-]

We made a Hobbit Draft Game Tournament last week in Paris. This is probably the last version of the cards (Goblin Town cards will have their names changed). I will print them next week.

http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/ShadowPack3.html

[-Enola-]

No comment?

[Durin's Heir]

I'll post this only by now, while I'm still analyzing the other 2 Shadows...

Stone Giants

- Granite Giant:

- Lavastone Giant: The gametext seems fine. But if some words were changed for shorter equivalents (without changing the effect at all) you should be able to free 1 line to restore the old loretext ("This is no thunderstorm. It's a thunder-battle!"). It'd be this way: "Archery: Exert this minion to reveal a random card from your opponent's hand."


- Boulder Rock: The Archery skill might be better if revealed "3 cards at random from your hand", and made the minion archery +1 "for each Shadow card you reveal". That way, the chances of not adding any archery will be far less, while the whole addition of 3 will be improbable too. That should make this Shadow more consistent (without removing the fun side).
"Archery: Discard this possession to reveal 3 cards at random from your hand. For each Shadow card you reveal, the minion archery total is +1."

You reduced the Granite Giant's strength from 12 to 11, so now that cost minion (+2 from discard) cannot overwhelm a str 6 guy without a pump. That's fine. And also increased this rock's cost from 0 to 1, and finally to 2. Which is fine too. Now, given that cost increase, it might give str +1 or +2 to make the Granite Giant less easy to kill in skirmish. If so, by paying for the Rock (+3 from discard) the Granite Giant would overwhelm str 6 guys again, and would have a bit better stopping power. The same for the Lavastone Giant (except that it needs +2 str to increase its overwhelming power). Those skirmish and stopping benefits would occur only by not using the Archery skill immediatly, turning it into a threat for a second move instead.

A strength addition will also make it more desirable during the Draft (not only for Giant players, but also if someone draws a Catapult/Bridging Troll).


That's all by now. I'll try to hasten on the rest.

[-Enola-]

Great to see you back.

- Lavastone Giant: Great idea! Thanks.

- Boulder Rock: I don't think a stength addition will be useful. The Rock is always discarded during the archery phase and it must be so. Ok for the new effect! Hatred Rekindled helps a lot.

[-Enola-]

I need your advice on the 2 other Shadows soon, these cards will be printed this week.

[Durin's Heir]

- Boulder Rock: Ok if you don't want a strength bonus. I know it interferes with the Archery skill, the Shadow player must use one or the other. But I wanted the Giants (and Trolls) to have a skirmish bonus alternative, which also increases stopping power. Still, that might create confusion among players, so it'd be ok if you keep it without strength bonus.

Perhaps you may give it a small and brief playtest on the skirmish & stopping side, with +2 strength.

------

I've been working on the Laketown Men, but meanwhile have had a lot of troubles to deal with. I lack a definite response only for Braga and the Spear of the Guard, but at least I know what worries me about those current versions.


Corrupted Men

I think this Shadow does too much: high strength fierce minions, high vitality, big and perdurable pumps, easy damage bonuses. (Dwarves can do little more than decide who'll take the risk, hoping to not be overwhelmed.) That needs some adjust, but what worries me most is the lack of room to counter by the FP player. For instance, if Braga has 2 or 3 weak Orcs, he can spend them before the FP player has any time to kill them in skirmish. That lack of FP maneuverability makes the skills too hard to counter, which adds to their fierce keyword and high base attributes.

These Men's attributes were originally based on Men, but I believe you remodeled them after Decipher's trackers (site 6, moderately high strength & vitality, low twilight). But Orcs aren't fierce, so these Men can deal twice the wounds with the same hard-to-defeat strength. And since their vitality is so high, wounding methods will rarely stop them (they're also not Orcs, so Azanulbizar can touch merely their fuel). I'd reduce their vitality and keep them fierce, so a victorious damage +1 Dwarf (unlikely due to Men's strength) or direct wounding tricks can prevent them from fighting twice.


- Gangsquad Spies: Perhaps I'd lower its strength to 8. Besides that, seems fine. But I wonder why this minion has a loretext denoting authority, and Laketown Patrol (the real authority) has a loretext denoting observation. So "What are dwarves doing in these parts?" should be in this minion.

- Alfrid's Influence: It's unclear if it's unique or not. I see a unique dot at the right side of the initial "A". This card depends on Gangsquad Spies to be replayed, and also Gangsquad Spies can only be replayed by this condition, so this Shadow seems in great trouble if it gets discarded. Extra copies won't stack, so I'd make it non-unique.

Also, you can change it from "you may play" to "you may take into hand" a Man from discard. That way, you can take a copy of Gangsquad Spies and retain it for the next site if you fear your Influences will be blasted either after maneuver phase (Sting, Bifur, Accorn), or during maneuver but after removing your Orcs (Azanulbizar / Burning Fir Cones / Tauriel + Ancestral Knowledge), circumstances that unable the Spies to recover it (and thus unable you to later replay the Spies).


- Laketown Patrol: 10 strength, 4 vitality, fierce AND negates weapon bonuses... that's even stronger than Troop of Uruk-hai! Whose combination of attributes and skill makes hard to defeat and erase (even for Gimli!). And since the Patrol also negates weapon bonuses for all Dwarves, erasing it will be a necessity with certain decks. So I think it should either be str 10 vit 2 (hard to defeat, easier to kill by direct wounds), or str 9 vit 3 (easier to defeat, harder to kill). But vit 4 is clearly excessive. Might have another skill to compensate that attribute reduction, something perhaps like Orc Chieftain to incentivize playing the Spear on it.

Laketown Patrol
Minion • Man
Strength 9  Vitality 3  Site 6
Fierce.
Each companion loses all strength bonuses from weapons.
Response: If you play a weapon on this minion, add (limit once per turn).
"If you come in peace lay down your arms."

That way, playing a Spear on it from discard during the Shadow phase would need and would return (having the Footman as fuel). Those can be used for more Orc-fuel, for another Man, or for weapons/conditions during Maneuver.


- Spear of the Guard: +2 str only, +3 seems too much for strong and fierce minions. And the damage bonus is abusive, too powerful and too easy to pay. Moreover with Laketown Patrol having 4 vitality points! I believe Laketown Men shouldn't kill by damage, but by multiple skirmishes, or by overwhelming. Then, an alternative is to remove strength bonuses from one follower: "Skirmish: Exert bearer to discard the bottom card of your draw deck. If it is a minion, make a companion lose all strength bonuses from one follower."

The spear's bonus already helps bearer's high base strength (twice per site!), so having also a skill to support bearer seems overkill. So perhaps the exertion-depending skill might be changed to only help another Man in skirmish, which would give the FP player some degree of maneuver by trying to defeat/wound bearer first. Still, don't know how to mix that with the skill I just proposed, making all fit into 4 or 5 lines.


- Braga: Don't know what to change here. His attributes are well, he only needs to give more maneuver range to the FP player. If his skill would only last during the phase it is used, then the FP player would have a chance to kill some Orcs before Men take their turn to fight. Still, Men are a bigger threat so the stronger Dwarves will face Braga & Company, assigning weak Dwarves/allies to Orcs, so don't know if that'll be enough maneuver room...

If Braga's skill lasts until regroup, then should be +2 only.



That's all by now.

EDIT: Changes in green.

[Durin's Heir]

Mirkwood Corruption: The conditions seem well balanced by now. However, there are some details that I'd prefer to adjust.

- Ancient Grudge: Much better! By affecting only "Dwarves that skirmish Orcs" you prevent players from reaping the (persistent) benefits with Giants, Men or Smaug. Flavor-wise, it should be "Orc or Spider" (in case those 2 packs meet, you should be able to splash Spider minions in a Mirkwood shadow; Fat Spider being the best!).

- Elven Jails: I think it's fine, but would be stronger if it were a Response skill that triggers "At the start of the regroup phase" instead (with or without a "limit once" per phase). That way it'd act before Bard, the Accorn and Barrels can interfere. But might be too strong that way, so depends on how strong you want it to be.

- The Elvenking: Better. But I still think it'll need to "play a [Mirkwood] or [Gundabad] condition", since all your Mirkwood machinery will be operated by Orkish immigrants . When your copies of Hatred Rekindled get discarded, you'll have merely the Orc-workers (and copies of HoT) left in hand and draw deck for the production to keep going. Keep in mind that each time Ancestral Knowledge will be discarding 2 conditions, it'll target the Elvenking + a [Gundabad] condition.

- Elf-Guards: The effect with an imprisoned Dwarf is much better than the previous. Disabling doubt-remotion is very strong, but not as strong as adding 2 doubts per discarded Orc.

But I believe the Orc-discarding part needs to act like Ancient Grudge does: only trigger when a FP character loses to an Orc (or to "an Orc or Spider" ). I mean, by now can trigger with Smaug, or with Gollum facing Bilbo. Or with Men or Giants (or Nazguls, Wargriders, Sauron) if splashed!


- Borders of the Forest: The healing part is a clever way to make Watchful Orc less easy to kill pre or mid-skirmish. But that other skill seems a bit mild without other conditions. With Orc-Guards, makes Bilbo's skirmish easy to win vs a str 8 Orc, for a doubt. With Elven Jails + , you can increase a lot the likelihood of having an Orc alive at regroup. But without those conditions, Bilbo will be fine vs a str 8 Orc with Sting or a follower (Dori being the best) in absence of Shadow pumps, so isn't worrisome at all. Still, mild is ok if we consider Orc-Guards is a very strong corruption engine by itself (and ditto for Ancient Grudge for beatdown).

By itself will be helpful to protect conditions versus Sting + Noble Intentions/Also a Took. The only thing that bothers me a bit is that supplants the Orkish Aggressor, which becomes totally superfluous with it on the board.



With the Mirkwood Shadow already analized, I'm waiting for your replies about it, the Laketown shadow and the strength addition in Boulder Rock (it's more for the Trolls than the Giants ).

[-Enola-]

Mirkwood Corruption:

- Ancient Grudge: Much better! By affecting only "Dwarves that skirmish Orcs" you prevent players from reaping the (persistent) benefits with Giants, Men or Smaug. Flavor-wise, it should be "Orc or Spider" (in case those 2 packs meet, you should be able to splash Spider minions in a Mirkwood shadow; Fat Spider being the best!).

Yes, but I prefer a simple card. Only Orcs seems fine. And Fat Spider will be great in this Shadow.

- Elven Jails: I think it's fine, but would be stronger if it were a Response skill that triggers "At the start of the regroup phase" instead (with or without a "limit once" per phase). That way it'd act before Bard, the Accorn and Barrels can interfere. But might be too strong that way, so depends on how strong you want it to be.

Don't worry, the card is really good, and Bard will only work on a single exhausted Orc.

- The Elvenking: Better. But I still think it'll need to "play a [Mirkwood] or [Gundabad] condition", since all your Mirkwood machinery will be operated by Orkish immigrants . When your copies of Hatred Rekindled get discarded, you'll have merely the Orc-workers (and copies of HoT) left in hand and draw deck for the production to keep going. Keep in mind that each time Ancestral Knowledge will be discarding 2 conditions, it'll target the Elvenking + a [Gundabad] condition.

Most of the time, the FP player discards Elvenking + Not At Home. I'm afraid of the too easy splash of the Mirkwood Shadow in other Shadows, that's why it makes much more sense to only have [Mirkwood] on this card. But you're right, when Elvenking and Not at Home are discarded the next site is difficult for the Shadow player, because if you stack a Not at Home in hand you can only use it at the end of the next site. Elvenking will now prevent the discard of the [Mirkwood] and [Gundabad] conditions.

- Elf-Guards: The effect with an imprisoned Dwarf is much better than the previous. Disabling doubt-remotion is very strong, but not as strong as adding 2 doubts per discarded Orc.

But I believe the Orc-discarding part needs to act like Ancient Grudge does: only trigger when a FP character loses to an Orc (or to "an Orc or Spider" ). I mean, by now can trigger with Smaug, or with Gollum facing Bilbo. Or with Men or Giants (or Nazguls, Wargriders, Sauron) if splashed!

Sure, a non-Orc minion can win a skirmish and add a doubt with a remaining Orc. But the FP player will always kill the Orcs first and then continue with others skirmishes. And this time, there will be strong splashs (fierce Men, Spiders...) from other Shadows to Mirkwood Shadow (and not the opposite ). Just adding Spiders makes the card a bit longer to read and retain.

- Borders of the Forest: The healing part is a clever way to make Watchful Orc less easy to kill pre or mid-skirmish. But that other skill seems a bit mild without other conditions. With Orc-Guards, makes Bilbo's skirmish easy to win vs a str 8 Orc, for a doubt. With Elven Jails + , you can increase a lot the likelihood of having an Orc alive at regroup. But without those conditions, Bilbo will be fine vs a str 8 Orc with Sting or a follower (Dori being the best) in absence of Shadow pumps, so isn't worrisome at all. Still, mild is ok if we consider Orc-Guards is a very strong corruption engine by itself (and ditto for Ancient Grudge for beatdown).

By itself will be helpful to protect conditions versus Sting + Noble Intentions/Also a Took. The only thing that bothers me a bit is that supplants the Orkish Aggressor, which becomes totally superfluous with it on the board.

Borders of the Forest helps a lot other [Mirkwood] cards. And the Shadow player will try to assign the best Orcs first. If Bilbo always bears Dori + loses a skirmish at each site (=2 wounds per site), it will be difficult to avoid killing wounds.

Even with only Orcs with strength max 8 the FP player will be afraid of a lot of Shadow tools: Anger, Ancient Grudge (2nd part), Goblin Scimitar, Great Goblin, big Orcs from the Swarm Pack 2, Malevolent Orcs, Hidden, Great Goblin's Sceptre, Goblin Archers....

Borders of the Forest is really strong. After many tests, the first part seems necessary for the Watchful Orc. The Orkish Aggressor bring a constant pressure on Bilbo, it often wins its skirmishes or survives until regroup or add just one doubt. It's still the best minion of the Shadow .


Stone Giants

- Boulder Rock: Ok if you don't want a strength bonus. I know it interferes with the Archery skill, the Shadow player must use one or the other. But I wanted the Giants (and Trolls) to have a skirmish bonus alternative, which also increases stopping power. Still, that might create confusion among players, so it'd be ok if you keep it without strength bonus.

I prefer only one way, the players will think simpler during games.



I need to make some quick tests with Evil Men before any further replies.

[Durin's Heir]

- Elven Jails:

- Ancient Grudge: Ok. You're right, 8 str Orcs need help to bring troubles to Dwarves, but not Spiders which are strong enough by themselves.

- The Elvenking: My version is splashable, but still costs and protects only [Mirkwood] conditions. Restoring Hatred Rekindled will need , which means for many Shadows playing nothing else, or ill-supported minions only to clear the hand. That's too costly for Giants, Men, even swarm Orcs, but for Evil Elves is a matter of survival. Test the Bilbo Pack vs your current version, concentrating the FP efforts (like Balin and especially Old Thrush) on condition control, and I'm sure you'll wish at some point to recover Hatred Rekindled too!

But being splashable disfavours Mirkwood players in the Draft. So changing the text to enforce that part to corruption Shadows only should make it non-splashable: "When you play this, you may play a [Mirkwood] condition (or [Gundabad] if you spot 3 doubts) from your draw deck or discard pile."

3 lines. The part in red is worded like Secret Sentinels: absolutely optional. As needs 3 doubts, it'll rarely be used at region 1, where you'll also rarely need desperately to recover Hatred Rekindled.


- Borders of the Forest: Agree that it's a great support for other conditions. I guess the Aggressor's role is then to act like this condition while it is absent; 2 different cards assuring the same task is done in every site, that's fine.

Yes, Dori's aid cost + Bilbo losing his fight will mean 2 wounds, but Elrond can reduce them to 1 later; that would force to not double move often, but besides that I see it totally bearable. Bombur might be a better aid for Bilbo then: exerts another companion, and gives Bilbo along with Sting a total of str 7 dmg+1, rendering the Aggressor useless without pumps (in which case you can even use a pump for Dwarves to trigger Sting!), and making most other Orcs defeatable with Noble Intentions.


- Elf-Guards: The problem I see is that it's too easy to splash on other Shadows (more than The Elvenking!), moreover those that use mainly Orcs: Bolg's and Azog's Armies, Goblin-town Archers, Sauron Swarm and Beatdown, Wargriders. This single card can turn any of those into a very efficient Corruption Shadow (besides its own natural goal). With Gollum, Spiders and Smaug, it'll be too easy to corrupt! Kinda interferes with Goblin Swarms, but too will help them to press on Bilbo's resistance (if your Orc wins, you can stack it on the Swarms and also discard another Orc that lost or will lose)... I see it of little use only with The Nazgul and the 3 Trolls.

You can also splash The Elvenking to both get it sooner, and to protect it: it'd be like an optionless Worry for Orcs of any culture, and also protected by Siege Engine! It began to worry me while writting, I think we need to find a balanced way to reduce that potential... If it triggered only at a forest, that'd be enough burden for many of those other Shadow cultures:

"Each time a Free Peoples character loses a skirmish at a forest site, you may discard an Orc from play to add a doubt."



- Boulder Rock: Trolls won't get too much from this (for their own goals) by firing 0 to 3 arrows once in a while; we all know that if arrows happen seldom, FP players can distribute those wounds well. But a strength bonus gives far more advantages to a skirmish Beatdown shadow: your Troll (or Giant) raises its chances to survive if loses, to winn normally, and even to overwhelm. That's especially important if your main need is to stop your opponent's fellowship (even with Giants). It's much more for Trolls, as said before.

[-Enola-]

- Borders of the Forest: Yazneg is always a good minion. Dori or another follower may not be such a problem.

- Elf-Guards: The strategy of other Swarm Shadows need to not discard Orcs before regroup (Bolg Shadow, Swarm, Spiders...) . Sure, there will be interactions with other Shadows. After many tests, this card seems fine now.

- Boulder Rock: Only the Troll can bear it. The rock must be thrown to have an effect.

[Durin's Heir]

The rock must be thrown to have an effect.

- Boulder Rock: Or that extra vitality can fuel their own skills. Those 2 Trolls are Skirmishing machines with self-exerting skills. If they use that extra vitality to fuel the skill another time until getting exhausted, then the Archery skill will either be unused or... will suicide your Troll, only to get 0 to 3 arrows!

So they exclude each other: to use the Archery skill you must NOT use the extra vitality. Not using again those mighty and fancy Troll-skills is a real shame. So since Trolls are Skirmish + Vitality-fueled skill tanks (and not Archery minions), a strength bonus would come in handy for them (as unlike Giants, they'll often retain the Rock).

For Giants, I don't see the problem of adding a small strength bonus (+1 or +2) that players will simply never use in detriment of the much more useful Archery skill.

-----

- Borders of the Forest: Alright, it's ok.
- The Elvenking: Don't forget about the idea of (re)playing Mirkwood conditions. I'm waiting for your answer.

- Elf-Guards: Not all Shadows need Orcs in play after skirmish phase. Let's see in more detail:

- Goblin Pack: a winning Orc can stack himself on the Goblin Swarms, AND discard another Orc that lost and survived (or that's destined to lose later).
- Goblin Archers can discard Orcs well after firing arrows (and while the Great Goblin gives the option of taking the wound, Elf-Guards doesn't so doubts will stack faster; the Great Goblin will add to that purpose).
- Azog's Army will flood the board with Orcs, and Assaulting Goblin will protect those that lose (a small part of them winning per site = easy corruption!)
- Swarm often shuffles many Orcs into deck... to assure 1 Orc will win, so that Orc will discard himself for 1 doubt. Hidden and all those low-cost Orcs assure an abundance of Orcs to discard, each time 1 happens to win his fight.

- Wargriders can discard another Orc in the first skirmish, and discard themselves in the fierce (it's easy for them to win).
- The Necromancer pumps all Orcs, and can assign them for easy wins (8th victory = Bilbo flees!)
- Gollum is already strong in corruption, accompanies himself with Orcs and wins his skirmishes often.
- The same for Smaug... but he almost never loses his 2 fights!

I was wrong with Bolg's Army and Spiders, as Orcs need to be discarded to use their skills. Nazguls and Trolls too need Orcs as fuel. So I still see it as a very powerful splash for those Shadows in the list!

So limiting it to forests only will be somewhat easy for Mirkwood Elves (Borders needs the same), and will stop all that madness for the rest. Other Shadows would still use it, by using 1 Watchful Orc more than what they usually need (which is sometimes 0, in the case of Sauron or Wargriders). Or when at a natural forest site .

[-Enola-]

Boulder Rock: It doesn't worth the shot to change the card now for a +2 strength. It brings max +3 archery for (2) (or (5) with the Footman), no card in LOTR does that!

Elf-Guards: As you say, the only problems are the Azog Swarm and Goblin archers (other Shadows are in different Beatdown Packs....). I will change this by discarding only a Gundabad Orc.

Elvenking: The card protects the Gundabad and Mirkwood conditions now.

[Durin's Heir]

Ok for the Elvenking and Elf-Guards. Protecting Gundabad conditions with The Elvenking seems better than my idea.

- Boulder Rock: That's max 3 arrows for Giants, but the Bridging Troll can use its skill once more due to the extra vitality... and will often do (given the built-in prevention). Ending up exhausted, which means "Archery skill = suicide." But if waits a bit longer, can deal 2 wounds by itself (damage +1) plus entertaining a strong defender that'd otherwise likely kill an Orc you just played with its skill. That's 3 wounds! But as a side effect, you're saving 1 Troll on the board, and probably 1 Orc too (for stopping power's sake). And pressing more on the FP defenders (perhaps forming a Swarm).

Meanwhile in the Misty Mountains, Giants will still prefer to toss a Rock during Archery, even with strength bonus. Players will use the Granite Giant's skill (not twice but) thrice, and will see those 6 arrows as little in comparison to the 9 that can get by immolating the Giant. No str bonus can compete with that!

----------

- Braga: Found a factor that might be used to limit his skill's effect. It allows the FP player to decide, and thus to maneuver it. The pump should be stronger if the Orc that is being used "is NOT assigned to skirmish", that way the FP player can either face Men first to risk lesser pumps with the Orc-fuel, or fight Orcs first trying to kill them but anyone that remains alive will fuel a stronger pump.

I see 2 versions (with examples):
* Change the magnitude: "Skirmish: Place an Orc in play beneath your draw deck to make a Man strength +2 (or +3 if that Orc is not assigned to skirmish) until the regroup phase."
* Change the duration: "Skirmish: Place an Orc in play beneath your draw deck to make a Man strength +3 (until the regroup phase if that Orc is not assigned to skirmish)."

(I'm too tired now to think which one is better...)

The point is that Braga shouldn't take away the FP player's chance to try to kill the Orcs first (which currently does!). But also the FP player shouldn't take away Braga's fuel by simply fighting Orcs first, there must be pros and cons in either option to weigh.

In any case, Braga will place Orcs beneath the draw deck (for Alfrid's Influence and the Spear to use) whether the Orcs still don't fight, win their fight or (are going to) lose it. That set-up part of Braga isn't reduced by this proposal at all.

[-Enola-]

I don't think there is a problem with Braga. There were no problem during test. Btw, Wicked Spider is far stronger : not unique, better pumps, cheaper, and there are often more Spiders in play than Men....