Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game

[Durin's Heir]

I find it difficult to comment at the moment since I have tried the cards yet. I have to say that I love what you guys are doing, especially the idea of making this game a draft game.

You are welcome my fellow! Actually I haven't tried the cards too, I ain't got anyone to play them . But even from a purely theoretical environment ideas can be worked and suggested. Enola and his friends test the cards, so anyone can post an idea and turn it into card suggestions even if it's pure theory.

I have to say that I like the idea of the Wise unloaded keyword, especially since it combine cards from different cultures.

We needed a way to shorten the text lenght of cards involving The White Council. And to exclude Mirkwood and lesser Rivendell elves. At first the idea was to write "Wizard and Elf allies" or " and characters", but Thranduil and Legolas are far from being appropriate for The Wise...

I wish Decipher had made more cross-cultured unloaded keywords than only Ranger (and Fellowship at Ages End), which comprises only Arwen, one version of Glorfindel and men. Valiant keyword should have included some versions of Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, Merry and perhaps Gandalf...

Sorry, I haven't read the book. I guessed it wrong then. 

The resurrection of the Nazgul is completely Jackson's, they never die in Tolkien's writings (until Eowyn of course); they just withdrew and disappeared for a time. The Battle at Dol Guldur is not described at all by Tolkien and it's free to interpretations, therefore some say The Nazgul were present while others argue that Saruman's message to Gandalf in FOTR, carried by Radagast, contradicts that:

"I have an urgent errand," he said. "My news is evil." Then he looked about him, as if the hedges might have ears. "Nazgûl," he whispered. "The Nine are abroad again. They have crossed the River secretly and are moving westward. They have taken the guise of riders in black."

Indeed Tolkien never mentioned in The Hobbit the exact reasons why Gandalf leaves Thorin's Company, he leaves due to important things he must attend... and later just reappears.

You are right.  I agree that Orcs are not part of the Battle at Dol Guldur, but they were there at some point (at least in the movie), so it could still possibly make a bit of sense. Also, if you look at Saruman, Servant of Sauron, he can be supporting any minion.

The Orcs present in the movie were Sauron's forces mustered for immediate battle at Erebor. A single Orc can be seen left at Dol Guldur who strikes a jailed Gandalf, he looks like the same Orc that Dwalin beats at Azanulbizar after the Dwarves regroup, perhaps survived but given Dwalin's movements and face expression I believe it's his twin brother only .

Sauron has and some of the Nazgul will have a text line to allow The Wise to fight and minions, so perhaps there might be some Dol Guldur Orcs and the Nazgul followers might be borne by "Sauron or a minion"... perhaps in an Extension.

I don't believe followers should have access to any kind of cross-cultured gameplay, they should specify bearers according to the story (like the Shadow versions of Thranduil and Legolas we were working time ago, which can be borne by only Dwarves). Saruman Servant of Sauron came when Decipher just couldn't depart anymore from Tolkien's story, or even from Jackson's loose interpretation. They even contradicted some rules of their own when made Whisper in the Dark (bearable only by followers, but the Followers rule states they cannot bear other cards)...

[-Enola-]

I'm not sure about a so automatic Resurrect keyword. We have to playtest all this and the proposition will probably be something like :

Resurrect X - At the Shadow phase, you may discard X minions from hand to play this minion from your discard pile.

Or just

Shadow : Discard X minions from hand to play this minion from your discard pile.

It's very tricky with all the Nazgul abilities (some will be changed), which can return Orcs in hand ^^.


I'm still working on this Balin/Thorin/discarding followers thing and I'm not sure if it's the good way to handle it.

After some tests today, I'm almost sure Balin will only bring back FP events. We will reduce the discarding power of Smaug's conditions and Sauron's Ring.

Thank you all .

[Durin's Heir]

I hope it's not too late to say these points...

I will see with MarcinS to put the Hobbit Draft Game on gemp (as I did for the Multipath format). But the game must be fully tested before, MarcinS will not have the time to modify each card due to playtests.

If the Draft Game is included in Gemp, it will be likely with a constructed TCG game format: all cards available to choose, and up to 4x per card. Therefore when designing cards and cultures we must foresee any possible combination of the cards as both a viable Draft Game and a constructed TCG...

I mentioned that Cw0rk's totally free Resurrect keyword would be dangerous along with Moria, but in the Draft Game that almost can't happen. That combo will happen in Gemp, so Resurrect must have an anti-Swarm cost.

Shadow: Discard X minions from hand to play this minion from your discard pile.

Hmmm, this version uses only 2 lines. Quite clever, though a bit less tasteful... So I vote for this option.

As it frees more card room, it will fit better the needs of the culture. Those needs are 3: an abilty to play each of them from discard, a distinctive skill, and some 3 or 4 of them must have a line to allow "Wise allies may be assigned to Nazgûl". Please don't forget about that key line...

I'm still working on this Balin/Thorin/discarding followers thing and I'm not sure if it's the good way to handle it.

After some tests today, I'm almost sure Balin will only bring back FP events. We will reduce the discarding power of Smaug's conditions and Sauron's Ring.

Perhaps Balin or Thorin's skills aren't the best way to reduce the total number of followers, but there must be a way to do so.

I believe there must be also a way to shuffle back any FP card, as Sting, Glamdring and many useful cards may be discaded by Shadow cards, and Sting at least is clue. Balin suffling back any card would solve that problem...

Thank you all .

You are welcome!

And please don't forget about the idea of changing the Orkish Marauder to exhaust Dwarves as a Maneuver action instead of when playing at Shadow phase (to have Battle of Azanulbizar or Dawn Take You All as a counter)...

From:   "When you play this minion, spot 4 followers to exhaust a Dwarf companion."

To:      "Maneuver: Exert this minion and spot 4 followers to exhaust a companion."

[-Enola-]

Dawn Take You All is a skirmish event. I really prefer
 "When you play this minion, spot 4 followers to exhaust a Dwarf companion."

If we put the Hobbit Draft Game on gemp, it could be played as a Sealed game, probably 5 boosters of 13 cards instead of only 3 boosters in a Draft game.

I will find something new for Balin or Thorin.

[Durin's Heir]

I really prefer "When you play this minion, spot 4 followers to exhaust a Dwarf companion."

My point with changing it from Shadow phase to Maneuver was to allow your idea of using Battle of Azanulbizar as a viable counter to Orkish Marauder. I mean this quote:

About the Orkish Marauder, maybe his vitality could be only 2 (instead of 3), a Battle of Azanulbizar could then control this minion (or not with a Warg or conditions), like Terrible & Evil and Enquea, LoM.

Dawn Take You All is a skirmish event.

Hmmmm... you are right . I always thought it was a Maneuver one, don't know why...

If we put the Hobbit Draft Game on gemp, it could be played as a Sealed game, probably 5 boosters of 13 cards instead of only 3 boosters in a Draft game.

That's actually a great idea for Leagues, to emulate the feeling and gameplay of the Draft Game.

But in casual games that would take too long, so it must be a Contructed TCG environment where you can start a game with a previously assembled deck, with perhaps some cards restricted to only 1 copy (by adding to the R-list)...

I will find something new for Balin or Thorin.

The problems are not in Thorin and Balin, but in the lack of mechanisms to 1. reduce the follower count (given the current Marauder) and to 2. recycle discarded non-event cards like Sting, Elrond or Glamdring...

Balin and Thorin are indeed well as they are, but I thought they might be also the solution given their strong and frequent presence in the game.

[-Enola-]

For Thorin, I think it could be :

Fellowship: Discard a follower to place a artifact from your discard pile beneath your draw deck.

Balin, AWINL or any action searching in the main deck may then shuffle the draw deck.

[Durin's Heir]

Great! It solves the followers problem, providing an useful ability.

I don't have any problem with "place beneath your draw deck" instead of "shuffle into your draw deck". Many cards can shuffle the deck: Bilbo Collector of Treasures, Gandalf (except Leader of Dwarves), Balin, AWINL, Wizard Staff, Eagles Are Coming, Emeralds of Girion, Old Thrush, Thráin, Thrór's Heirlooms, Roäc...

Emeralds of Girion and Thranduil will have more usefulness with Thorin retrieving artifacts. Great again!


But if it were ANY artifact instead of only , it would solve the problem of Sting being discarded. The main problems with Shadow discarding I believe are Sting and Glamdring: events have Balin, non-Dwarf characters like Bard or Elrond have AWINL, followers have Eagles Are Coming and To Me! O My Kinsfolk!. Now artifacts will have Thorin. So only possessions, non- artifacts and Dwarf characters won't have a way of retrieving them to play or draw deck, and Sting and Glamdring are key cards...


Fellowship: Discard a follower to place a Free Peoples artifact from your discard pile beneath your draw deck.

Enough to solve both issues. Keep in mind the cost is quite expensive.

The Orkish Marauder can very well preserve its current text, though I'd like to have it reduce its vitality to 2 as you said, to have Battle of Azanulbizar as a counter to the "Spot 7 companions and remove " ability (like Terrible and Evil countering Shotgun Enquea)...

[Cw0rk]

I just had an idea for resurrect.

Resurrect: When this card is about to be discarded, shuffle it into your draw deck instead.

Positive point:
- Simpler mechanic (no need to discard a minion from hand, search through discard pile and think about what to play from there)
- Add more variety to the game which already contains a lot of cards in every culture that plays stuff from discard pile
- No swarm issue

Negative point
- A lot of shuffling involved... but it wouldn't be more time consuming that searching in the discard pile every turn to play minions.

Oh, and I don't like the word "resurrect" much... First, it makes me think too much of religion. Second, resurrect is a verb and most keywords are adjectives or nouns (fierce, valiant, enduring, ranger, tale). Third, as Durin pointed out earlier, Nazguls dont resurrect in the book. I would like to suggest an alternative, but sadly I can't think of one at the moment.

[-Enola-]

For Thorin, I prefer only artifacts, since Thorin doesn't want to interfer in other cultures's businesses. It's not a big problem if Sting is discarded (and only the Ring, a Troll and maybe the Big Smaug can discard it).

I know the "Resurrect" keyword sounds too religious, I don't like it too. Maybe we can make the replaying ability of the Nazgul without a keyword... and so we will have many different ways to play back Nazguls:

Response: When this card is about to be discarded, shuffle it into your draw deck instead.
Shadow: Exert 2 minions to play this minion from your discard pile.
Maneuver: Discard a minion from hand to play this minion from your discard pile.


Another point : I made no lore text now for the new Shadows, if you have propositions for all of them I will take them .

[Durin's Heir]

For Thorin, I prefer only artifacts, since Thorin doesn't want to interfer in other cultures's businesses. It's not a big problem if Sting is discarded (and only the Ring, a Troll and maybe the Big Smaug can discard it).

In The Desolation of Smaug, Thorin contemplates the Dwarvish Windlance in Lake-town... in a possible Extension Set the Windlance might be added (Dwarven or Dale?).

Hmmmm, it's true that Thorin doesn't take part in the bussiness of other cultures, except that Bilbo in not a representative of the Shirefolk but instead the Burglar of his Company. So perhaps it might be "to place a or artifact" beneath the draw deck... excluding Gandalf but that's alright. And Sting is clue against Gollum and Orkish Sneak threatening him over and over again... ( Ring of Thrór can discard Sting, while Sauron will make Gollum/Orkish Sneak fierce.)

Auctioneer: "Who is this person you pledged your service to? Thorin Oakenshield?"
Bilbo: "He... he was my friend."

Fellowship: Discard a follower to place a or artifact from your discard pile beneath your draw deck.

Maybe we can make the replaying ability of the Nazgul without a keyword... and so we will have many different ways to play back Nazguls:

Response: When this card is about to be discarded, shuffle it into your draw deck instead.
Shadow: Exert 2 minions to play this minion from your discard pile.
Maneuver: Discard a minion from hand to play this minion from your discard pile.

OK for replaying Nazzies without a keyword.

- "Maneuver: Discard a X minion(S) from hand to play this minion from your discard pile."

Quite interesting. Better in Maneuver than in Shadow, if a FP maneuver action adds twilight like transferring Thráin or playing an event (Lore of Imladris, Ancestral Knowledge, Former Herald, Skilled Negociator), then more or stronger Nazgul can come to the party. That helps too to compensate their high site number.

But please note that you must have a minion in play at the end of the Shadow phase to have a maneuver phase...

I'd prefer to have the cost for the strongest of the Nazgul to be a bit higher, discarding 2 minions instead of 1. Those Nazgul would be in my opinion everyone with a cost of 6 or more, and anyone with a greatly disruptive skill like Cantea LoDG (the one who discards weapons) or Nertea MoDG. Everyone else with a cost of 4 or 5 will be good by discarding only 1 minion.


- "Response: When If this card is about to be discarded, shuffle it into your draw deck instead."

"If" is shorter than "When", as a response action. Not bad at all, can assemble strong Shadows for the latter sites, and you don't have to worry about decking out. It would work better with cards that allow you to play from draw deck, or with Hatred Rekindled discarding the draw deck faster (in a mixture of Ork and Nazgul Shadow)...


- "Shadow: Exert 2 minions to play this minion from your discard pile.

Hmmm, I don't like too much this one because of the potential to assemble Swarms (if you have enough twilight): you exert 2 guys to play a Nazgul, but that Nazgul comes fresh so the cycle can go on as long as there's pool. Peril and Spied From Above prevent that problem by exhausting the new minion, and that is both VERY costly and much longer in text... Not good options here.

Still, might be used in some Nazgul. But in every Nazgul would be disastrous.


Perhaps each of those 3 abilities should be used by 3 different Nazgul...

Another point : I made no lore text now for the new Shadows, if you have propositions for all of them I will take them .

Lore text depends on card room, so it's unlikely a Nazgul will have one. The Assailants and the Archers have plenty, that's a good thing. But the title and lore text must be in accordance with the gameplay. We must first discuss the general strategy of those 2 cultures...

After being discussed, I will gladly work on suggestions for the lore text.

[-Enola-]

Sauron and Gollum are in different Beatdown packs so they can't be in play at the same time.

Ok, sure these abilities are for different cards. I will change them soon.

[-Enola-]

Are there any other problems on the actual cards (not the new Shadows packs) ? I will print the definitive cards soon.

[Durin's Heir]

My friend Enola, I'm sorry for not being able to answer sooner. I've been a bit busier and dizzier than usually...

Are there any other problems on the actual cards (not the new Shadows packs) ? I will print the definitive cards soon.

- Rhudaur is a vast country, I'd change the name to "Rhudaur Plains" or something similar.

- Perhaps Jail should explicitly exclude Bilbo. I know the rules don't allow to discard or stack Bilbo in the Hobbit Draft Game (or the Ringbearer in LOTR TCG), but some players may believe it's still possible. To avoid confusion, "Response: If a companion (except Bilbo) is exhausted after...".

I don't see any other problem.

Sauron and Gollum are in different Beatdown packs so they can't be in play at the same time.

That's right, Sauron won't meet Gollum very often, but the Orkish Sneak is in the Main Deck and Sauron can make it fierce, which is very problematic if the Ring of Thrór discards Sting: Bilbo (strength 3) will fight the Sneak (strength 6) twice, so will add a doubt to discard it. And The One Ring can't protect him from that (it requires a doubt + another doubt for each wound = 3 doubts)...

That combo will be really powerful, as the Sneak has a strong presence (3x) and the Ring of Thrór can retrieve 2 of them for free AND discard Sting, so at least 2 doubts will be added if Bilbo doesn't have 2 pumps to prevent his overwhelming twice (or more if Hatred Rekindled/Host of Thousands plays the 3rd Sneak). And that combo can't be countered by replaying/recycling Sting as I proposed with Thorin...


So I see 2 simple options to restrain that combo, without changing anything in the Orkish Sneak nor Bilbo: 1. The One Ring can add a new base strength bonus of +1; 2. the Ring of Thrór should be changed from "discard non-Ring artifacts" to "discard non- artifacts".

Option 1 can compensate the smaller vitality bonus of this One Ring in respect of ATAR. It would end up as a semisum of ATAR and The Ruling Ring.

Option 2 would allow Sauron to discard FP Rings, but that would include only Narya (as The One Ring is and the Ring of Thrór can't be in play). If Nenya and Vilya are added in Extension Sets then they will be discardable, and that isn't in accordance with the fact Sauron didn't take Gandalf's Ring when he took him as prisoner. Plus, there are no more artifacts to add.

If you decide to make a change and there aren't more options to ideate, I'd vote for #1.

[-Enola-]

I will let Rhudaur like this, I just send all the cards to the printer .

Ok I will change the Sauron and Nazguls Shadows ^^. I think we can put all Nazguls in one copy and a condition in 3x which can bring the Nazgul back from the discard pile. And 3x a Sword for the Nazguls.

[Durin's Heir]

My fellow Enola, I found this today but don't know when you added it:

"A big thanks to Durin's Heir for all his help and support during the whole developpement of the game."

It has been such an honour my friend! I must thank you instead, for allowing me to participate in this development of such a nice representation of such lovely story.

Someday I will watch the movies with my grandchildren and play with them this good invention, and remember the days when we were squeezing our brains out to get funny and proper mechanics...

I think we can put all Nazguls in one copy and a condition in 3x which can bring the Nazgul back from the discard pile. And 3x a Sword for the Nazguls.

That can be a good solution. I like it! Then they would mimick the Troll Shadow: 3 conditions, 3 weapons and 9 minions.

But then at least 2 points present in the Troll culture must be assured with the Nazgul:

1. Trolls have a way to protect their much-needed replaying-condition (Bert). Perhaps here the idea may be portrayed as the condition having an ability to "resurrect" itself: "During the Shadow phase, you may play this condition from your discard pile."


Nine for Mortal Men Doomed to Die
Condition • Support Area
During the Shadow phase, you may play this condition from your discard pile.
Shadow: Discard a minion from hand to play a Nazgul from your discard pile.
Skirmish: Return your Orc to your hand to make a minion strength +2.
"...Who, above all else, desire power."

6 card lines, plus 1 for the lore. Given the available card room, I added a Skirmish ability, but can be replaced by any other skill like "Wise allies may be assigned to minions." The idea is to take advantage of that free card room and relief the card room of the Nazgul minions a little.

I believe the text and the title fit the story very well, as they become undead servants by the power of their Rings, and are brought back to life in the movies by the domain Sauron had upon their Rings.


2. Each Troll is very strong and disruptive as a single minion. They have a low cost (twilight + site number + "discard an Orc") and have good strength, pretty high vitality and are fierce. Besides their disruptive skills.

If you want to preserve the base attributes of the LOTR TCG Nazgul (except for the Site Number), you can counter those relatively weak attributes with devastating passive and active skills; they will have plenty of room now. Keep in mind the twilight cost and site number of almost every minion in the Hobbit Draft Game is very low (Gundabad Orcs are more or less Orcs but with Site Number -3), so the Nazgul must have means to manufacture twilight or reduce twilight cost.

An important point here, as each Nazgul will have only 1 copy, their abilities must be a bit redundant: 2 or 3 Nazgul must have the same goals but achieve them in different ways. If hypothetically a strength pump was the case:

- "Skirmish: Exert 2 minions to make a minion strength +2"
- "Skirmish: Return your Orc to your hand to make a minion strength +2"
- "Skirmish: Discard 2 cards from hand to make a minion strength +2"

Or twilight addition / cost reduction:

- "Shadow: Exert this minion and spot X minions to add "
- "Each Nazgul is twilight cost -1"
- "Shadow: Exert 2 minions to add "

If 3 Nazgul have a strength pump skill, then 1/3 of them would cover that aspect and that's the proportion you used in the Troll culture. Now they will have plenty of card room for 2 or 3 skills each, so you can distribute a single goal in different strategical combinations...