Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game

[ket_the_jet]

Sauron as a condition isn't more attractive, but what is Sauron doing there anyway? If he was a vengeful spirit in The Lord of the Rings, he definitely wasn't strong enough to show up in the Hobbit, even if he was just commanding his army to be "fierce."

My proposal would be something along the lines of:

Orkish Legions
Condition • Support Area
Each Orc is fierce.
Assignment: Exert an Orc twice to assign it to a companion (except Bilbo). That companion can exert to prevent this.
At the start of the regroup phase, discard this condition.

Let's not forget that the Hobbit doesn't mention Sauron a single time, with passing references to the Necromancer in the first and last chapters.
-wtk

[-Enola-]

For the new Shadow Pack, we decide to make a and Shadows in the new Beatdown Pack. And we also add some other cards only coming from the movies.

The Sauron Shadow is a transversal Shadow, as Gollum in the Beatdown Pack 1. It will use cards from other Shadows in order to counter-draft them.

Your condition isn't enough viable since there aren't so much Orcs with vitality 3 or more and as you said there are a lot of wounding before the skirmishes.

[Durin's Heir]

- Secret Door: There's a little problem. It says "Maneuver:" from the previous version, but shouldn't be a phase action.

- Power Struggle: I love the new picture!


NOTE: I'll be editing this post to add more reviews.

[Durin's Heir]

@Ket_the_jet: Saruman in FOTR block can't fight but is still a minion. And there's Saruman's Staff to make him fight, just as Sauron has the Ring of Thrór in the Hobbit Draft Game. (There is also a version of the Ring of Thrór, the same way as there is a Palantír of Orthanc and 2 ones.)

Sauron The Necromancer takes 1 skill from SotE (assigns Orcs and Nazgul) and 1 from KoI (makes Orcs fierce). And can't fight but can take archery wounds, just like Rabble-rouser. And the Ring of Thrór allows him to fight, makes him fierce and gives him +1 vitality. So yes, it's a minion and not a condition.

Sauron isn't mentioned in The Hobbit book, that's right, but many things in the films were only present in the LOTR books and appendices. After recovering the Ring of Thrór from Thráin, Sauron got enough power to rise again. Could have been at Dol Guldur, to lead an attack to Rivendell or Lothlórien from there, but was forced to retreat to Mordor by the White Council before he could muster such an army. (In Tolkien's writings, was Saruman who played the lead role in expeling Sauron from Dol Guldur, not Galadriel.) The idea of Sauron not having power to take physical form without The One is Jackson's, not Tolkien's.

So he was present when Gandalf left the Company to join the Wise. And had enough power to show up and wreak havoc. And didn't need to be present "commanding" his armies, it's a matter of his will pushing his servants to accomplish his plans. Just like Saruman's will was pressing his Uruks towards Isengard (to get The One Ring sooner, as he believed), and even was pressing the hearts of Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas to slow them down.

[-Enola-]

Thank you . I change Secret Door and Jail (a bit better now).
I also update the front page of this post.

[Durin's Heir]

- Jail: I like the new version of Jail. Now can hold several Wise fellows imprisoned in the same card, but adding only 1 per regroup phase, and a single victory of Elrond or Saruman (or cards like Ancestral Knowledge or Sting) will break the cage.

- Roäc & Dain: These cards are ok in their texts, they only need pictures with better resolution.

- Secret Door: This site has a little misspelling: "If you can spot THE Thrór's Key...", that word must be removed.

- Battle Ram: With the new reduced attributes, a cost of is too high. I'd change it to only.

I have nothing else to say about these add-ons and new Shadow packs. Everything else seems perfect and finished. Cheers!

[-Enola-]

Thank you .

- Roäc & Dain: These cards are printed in real cards since April, I will not change the picture. It's ok on the card.

- Secret Door: Ok. I will change it during the next updates (after the next playtest)

- Battle Ram: We will test it with 3 first and see if it's ok.


We will make a new playtesting next week. And there will be a new tournament of the Hobbit Draft Game the 17th October:

http://frealaf.free.fr/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1086

[-Enola-]

We made a playtest last Sunday. Here are the next updates:

http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Next_Updates2.html

[Durin's Heir]

I'm sorry for this long absense. I've been tired and busy all these days, and sometimes sick too . Hope this doesn't come too late...


- Battle Ram: How did it behave with a cost of ? I still think it should cost only. You said you wanted it to be like the mounts of Set 13, and none of those mounts costs more than . The skirmish ability is useful but not OP, and you'll need to use it selectively because now doesn't provide a vitality bonus. The main potential I think is in the powerful healing skill, but unlike Boromir DoMT it's not self-dependent. For those reasons I think is a better cost.

- Sauron, The Necromancer: Sauron's assignment skill should be very important, I have no problem with raising the doubt alternative cost to 2.

- Ulaire Enquea: I believe it's extremely powerful and doesn't fit the lore . Needs an alternative cost to be more balanced in both aspects. This should be ok: "The Free Peoples player may exert that ally and a companion to prevent this." If we consider Elrond will be healing each Wise ally per turn, exerting only a Wise ally has no relevancy, but exerting also a companion makes the cost persistent, brings back some grinding power to Nazguls, and may reduce Elrond's vitality so he won't heal that companion. If the White Council pack is present, Wise allies will have more power and presence but also will be more necessary (Bilbo & the Dwarves won't have direct help from that pack), and those exertions on Wise allies can trigger Jail if they accumulate.

- Ulaire Cantea: Hmmm, I like the idea on this one. But shouldn't "prevent all wounds to minions", instead should "prevent minions from taking wounds" until the assignment phase. In both cases your Nazgul won't be wounded before fighting, but if you prevent all wounds to them you will erase the FP archery, protecting Sauron, Smaug and your Orcs from arrows.

- Ulaire Nelya & Ulaire Otsea: Looks fine. Seems that the previous versions were too powerful with only 1 exertion. If these new versions happen to depend too much on the new Cantea (to prevent them from being killed), you may preserve the old cost of 1 exertion BUT adding "limit once per phase". I have the impression that not pulling Cantea in the Draft may kill these 2 Nazguls; if your opponent sees that, he/she will surely counterdraft Cantea from your hands.

- Bolg, Captain of the Goblin Army: Seems that the previous version had some troubles getting those 3 doubts. This new version will either prevent the FP player from using Bilbo as a pin cushion, or will give an use to those wounds on Bilbo; that's clever. But if you only need to spot those wounds, Bolg + Danger Wrapped in Shadows will mean a direct wound plus 3 pumps each site for absolutely no cost. The FP player may heal Bilbo to 1 or 0 wounds, but your Orcs at regroup will still bring big troubles if only the Dwarves (and Gandalf) take those wounds.

I'd change the regroup skill a bit: "Regroup: If you cannot spot 3 doubts, heal Bilbo to add a doubt." That way you will need a minimum of 1 wound on Bilbo to add the same number of doubts, but the loop will now have a cost. Keep in mind the FP player will prefer to have 3 wounds on Bilbo than to allow you to directly wound a Dwarf of your choice, so healing Bilbo is not a favor at all.

- Orkish Pursuer: This gives more importance to the Orkish Bow, and to Orcs provided by the Main Deck. That's a nice addition.

- Hidden Attack: Now it has the flavour of a real ambush, with both stopping power and regroup wounding. I like the new concept a lot!  But I think it needs a spotting requirement ("spot 2 Orcs" or so), otherwise with some cards in the dead pile you'll be able to skip directly from Shadow to Regroup phase (play no minions) to then play a lot of fresh regroup wounding Orcs AND make a double move extremely dangerous. If you add a spotting requirement, that might represent the need of having some Orcs to attract Thorin towards the trap and to delay him there until the ambushers come.

[-Enola-]

I'm sorry for this long absense. I've been tired and busy all these days, and sometimes sick too . Hope this doesn't come too late...

No problem, I hope you are fine now .

- Battle Ram: How did it behave with a cost of ? I still think it should cost only. You said you wanted it to be like the mounts of Set 13, and none of those mounts costs more than . The skirimish ability is useful but not OP, and you'll need to use it selectively because now doesn't provide a vitality bonus. The main potential I think is in the powerful healing skill, but unlike Boromir DoMT it's not self-dependent. For those reasons I think is a better cost.

This card is really strong (the heal part and the boost part). Not sure, if we reduce to . One of the playtester thinks would make the card too good.

- Ulaire Enquea: I believe it's extremely powerful and doesn't fit the lore . Needs an alternative cost to be more balanced in both aspects. This should be ok: "The Free Peoples player may exert that ally and a companion to prevent this." If we consider Elrond will be healing each Wise ally per turn, exerting only a Wise ally has no relevancy, but exerting also a companion makes the cost persistent, brings back some grinding power to Nazguls, and may reduce Elrond's vitality so he won't heal that companion. If the White Council pack is present, Wise allies will have more power and presence but also will be more necessary (Bilbo & the Dwarves won't have direct help from that pack), and those exertions on Wise allies can trigger Jail if they accumulate.

I have to change his lore text. I was thinking about this one (probably simpler than the previous one):

• Ulaire Enquea, Revived: Cost (6). minion. Nazgûl. Site 5. Strength 11, Vitality 4.
Fierce. Each time an Orc returns into your hand, you may exert Ulaire Enquea to exhaust a Wise ally. The Free Peoples player may exert 2 companions to prevent this.

- Ulaire Cantea: Hmmm, I like the idea on this one. But shouldn't "prevent all wounds to minions", instead should "prevent minions from taking wounds" until the assignment phase. In both cases your Nazgul won't be wounded before fighting, but if you prevent all wounds to them you will erase the FP archery, protecting Sauron, Smaug and your Orcs from arrows.

He is probably too good. I'm not sure if it's a good idea of making too different Nazguls. Maybe a Cantea similar as Nelya ? Or Enquea ?

I think I will give to the "Revived" keyword a second change. But only for the 3 big Nazguls (WK, Attea, Toldea). I remove the first ability by (twilight cost of Orc -3) :
Revived 3 (When you play an Orc, you may play this minion from your discard pile at twilight cost -3) for the WK
Revived 2 (When you play an Orc, you may play this minion from your discard pile at twilight cost -2) for Attea and Toldea

- Ulaire Nelya & Ulaire Otsea: Looks fine. Seems that the previous versions were too powerful with only 1 exertion. If these new versions happen to depend too much on the new Cantea (to prevent them from being killed), you may preserve the old cost of 1 exertion BUT adding "limit once per phase". I have the impression that not pulling Cantea in the Draft may kill these 2 Nazguls; if your opponent sees that, he/she will surely counterdraft Cantea from your hands.

Ok for the limit once per phase for Otsea and Nelya.

- Bolg, Captain of the Goblin Army: Seems that the previous version had some troubles getting those 3 doubts. This new version will either prevent the FP player from using Bilbo as a pin cushion, or will give an use to those wounds on Bilbo; that's clever. But if you only need to spot those wounds, Bolg + Danger Wrapped in Shadows will mean a direct wound plus 3 pumps each site for absolutely no cost. The FP player may heal Bilbo to 1 or 0 wounds, but your Orcs at regroup will still bring big troubles if only the Dwarves (and Gandalf) take those wounds.

I'd change the regroup skill a bit: "Regroup: If you cannot spot 3 doubts, heal Bilbo to add a doubt." That way you will need a minimum of 1 wound on Bilbo to add the same number of doubts, but the loop will now have a cost. Keep in mind the FP player will prefer to have 3 wounds on Bilbo than to allow you to directly wound a Dwarf of your choice, so healing Bilbo is not a favor at all.

I also want to change Bolg . Maybe add "archer" for an easy use with Orkish Pursuer and instead of "spot 3 doubts" maybe "at a battleground" ?

Maybe a simpler way to prevent damage with the Orkish Bow (it's hard to have a lot of twilight with this Shadow). This version seems better against a welel-stuffed Thorin:
Orkish Bow : Cost (1). [Gundabad] Possession. Ranged Weapon. Bearer must be a [Gundabad] Orc. Bearer is an archer. Skirmish: Remove to prevent a [Gundabad] Orc from taking wounds.

Another change: These [Gundabad] Orcs will now be site 3 (like the others [Gundabad] Orcs. Site 4 was too hard for them :/. And I will add on the Orkish Veteran :
At site 9, each [Gundabad] Orc is an archer.

- Hidden Attack: Now it has the flavour of a real ambush, with both stopping power and regroup wounding. I like the new concept a lot!   But I think it needs a spotting requirement ("spot 2 Orcs" or so), otherwise with some cards in the dead pile you'll be able to skip directly from Shadow to Regroup phase (play no minions) to then play a lot of fresh regroup wounding Orcs AND make a double move extremely dangerous. If you add a spotting requirement, that might represent the need of having some Orcs to attract Thorin towards the trap and to delay him there until the ambushers come.

Yes, I will probably add "Spot a [Gundabad] Orc to play a [Gundabad Orc at twilight cost -3....". It's more to avoid the too easy "Grond" ability of Smaug.

[Durin's Heir]

No problem, I hope you are fine now .

I'm still very busy, but better in health. Thank you!

(Battle Ram)This card is really strong (the heal part and the boost part). Not sure, if we reduce to . One of the playtester thinks would make the card too good.

followers are played only at Fellowship phase, so the twilight you add to play them (and heal bearer) will be used at Shadow phase. Dwarven Axe and Dwarven Spear are better for fighting and cost only. So may be too low, but is too high.

Keeping it at can be balanced by making it a bit better for fighting. Raising its base strength to +2 isn't a good idea... I think that keeping the cost at , but raising the Skirmish skill to +2 strength per exertion (with a "limit +3" or so) can be a good middle point.

Another option may be to reduce the cost to and add a cost of to the healing skill: "Each time you play a follower, you may add to heal bearer." But I like the previous suggestion better: the Battle Ram is mostly a fighting tool, and allows its rider to break enemies' ranks and support another Dwarf in need.

In any case, change " companion" to " character" in the Skirmish skill, to allow Dain and the Iron Hills Army to receive that costly help too.

I have to change his lore text. I was thinking about this one (probably simpler than the previous one):

• Ulaire Enquea, Revived: Cost (6). minion. Nazgûl. Site 5. Strength 11, Vitality 4.
Fierce. Each time an Orc returns into your hand, you may exert Ulaire Enquea to exhaust a Wise ally. The Free Peoples player may exert 2 companions to prevent this.

I like your new idea! He can exert 3 times, which equals to 3 exhausted Wise allies or 6 exertions. That may be a bit too much, so this ability may be better for another Nazgul with less viality (Cantea or Nelya). But the concept behind the ability is pretty neat.

I wasn't referring to Enquea's lore text (when saying "and doesn't fit the lore"), I was saying that blocking a Wise ally from fighting, without giving an alternative to the FP player, such ability doesn't fit the lore of the films/books (The White Council assaulted them and they were surpassed).

(Cantea) He is probably too good.

I think it's fine to protect them from being killed, but you may be right when saying the current version is too good. Perhaps something like "Response: If another minion is about to take a wound, remove and exert Ulaire Cantea to prevent that wound" will be better. Or Ulaire Enquea since he has 4 vitality, and (as mentioned above) your new Enquea's ability would be much more balanced if was carried by another Nazgul with 3 vitality (so exchanging roles with Cantea would be much better).

I'm not sure if it's a good idea of making too different Nazguls. Maybe a Cantea similar as Nelya ? Or Enquea ?

Yes, making them too different has the problem of counterdrafting. The strategy may be too dependant on a single card in the whole draft. Sharing a goal in 2 or 3 Nazguls reduces that problem. That's something we must think about in more extension.

I think I will give to the "Revived" keyword a second change. But only for the 3 big Nazguls (WK, Attea, Toldea). I remove the first ability by (twilight cost of Orc -3) :
Revived 3 (When you play an Orc, you may play this minion from your discard pile at twilight cost -3) for the WK
Revived 2 (When you play an Orc, you may play this minion from your discard pile at twilight cost -2) for Attea and Toldea

This gives a lot to think about. Seems a good idea, but must be studied in more detail. At first glance, I like it. But makes replaying Orcs returned to hand much harder.

Ok for the limit once per phase for Otsea and Nelya.

I also want to change Bolg . Maybe add "archer" for an easy use with Orkish Pursuer and instead of "spot 3 doubts" maybe "at a battleground" ?

Archer Bolg is ok. But then the archery skill must exert, not wound, a Dwarf at your choice. That can be useful against Fili and Kili.

Maybe a simpler way to prevent damage with the Orkish Bow (it's hard to have a lot of twilight with this Shadow). This version seems better against a welel-stuffed Thorin:
Orkish Bow : Cost (1). [Gundabad] Possession. Ranged Weapon. Bearer must be a [Gundabad] Orc. Bearer is an archer. Skirmish: Remove to prevent a [Gundabad] Orc from taking wounds.

The problem of such a skill is that doesn't allow the FP player to do anything to counter them, except overwhelming an Orc. So giving an alternative to the FP player may balance it: "The Free Peoples player may exert a companion in that skirmish to prevent that". Such alternative cost will help the grinding goal of the Shadow.

Another change: These [Gundabad] Orcs will now be site 3 (like the others [Gundabad] Orcs. Site 4 was too hard for them :/. And I will add on the Orkish Veteran :
At site 9, each [Gundabad] Orc is an archer.

OK for Site Number 3. The Orkish Veteran has only 2 vitality and can be killed at maneuver (Battle of Azanulbizar or Burning Fir Cones) and archery (Kili), so that's balanced.

Yes, I will probably add "Spot a [Gundabad] Orc to play a [Gundabad Orc at twilight cost -3....". It's more to avoid the too easy "Grond" ability of Smaug.

Cool! Another option may be to change it to this: "Spot X Orcs (limit 3) to play a [Gundabad] Orc from your discard pile at twilight cost -X. You may repeat this for each character in the dead pile." That way, having zero Orcs to spot and 3 characters in the dead pile, the 1st would cost -0, the 2nd'd cost -1, the 3rd'd cost -2 and the 4th'd cost -3. That means a total reduction of -6 if you can't first spot an Orc, while a fixed reduction of -3 to each means a total reduction of -12. That's better to reduce Smaug's skill.

I think that adding another copy of Hidden Attack (and removing 1 of Orkish Bow) may be good if it's power or viability is too low for only 2 copies.


Peace and Health my friend.

[-Enola-]

Thank you for your ideas. I put all the new ideas here:

http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Next_Updates2.html

Tell me what you think about it.

I prefer a simpler version of Hidden Attack. Not sure if I change the Battle Ram now, it still needs some playtests. I keep in mind all your ideas .

[-Enola-]

I just change the Nazguls for a simpler strategy.

http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Boosters2.html

[Durin's Heir]

Here's my revision, except for the Nazguls which are a bit complicated and will likely post them tomorrow.

- Orkish Bow: Ok for the Orkish Bow costing 0 to not choke its own Response action.
- Enchanted River: Much better in Shadow phase than in Maneuver.
- The Great Enemy:
- Jail: This version seems very cool. Doesn't need an exhausted Wise character, but if that's the case there's no possible counter. Otherwise grinds them, which is always useful. Simple and versatile.

- Savage Warg: Given its cost, +3 strength is much better. I think the Warg minion will be better with strength 10. I really don't know, but with 9 and no damage bonus feels like it'll be killed by Thorin with ease, or will cause only a single wound.

- Dwarven Song: That's better. This version doesn't allow you to play 1 artifact and 1 possession. If you change it to "...to play X possession or artifact cards from your draw deck", you'll be able to choose X items regardless of card type.

- Shadow Arkenstone: Apparently the previous version 1) was too complicated, or 2) had little attractive given the vitality bonus. In respect of point 1, how did it behave with allies? I believe it should be bearable by Bard too, and keep that strength reduction to other factions. If we remove that "non-Wise character" exception, the text will be much clearer.

In respect of point 2, it's alright to remove that vitality bonus, but I still think it should give something good to bearer. That might be a damage bonus (with Bilbo is almost useless). It'd portray the anger and bitterness its bearer will have when defending it. Also, you can reduce its twilight cost to 1 or 0, to make it even more attractive to the Shadow player (it will always have an implicit cost: the Arkenstone must not be in play).

The -1 strength doesn't convince me. It must give Bilbo an incentive to pass it to another guy, but if Thorin (or Bard) bears it, shouldn't reduce Thorin (or Bard)'s strength. Resistance -1 or -2 will strike Bilbo only, and if you keep the previous text to "divide and rule", Bilbo will suffer a -2 strength bonus after passing it to Thorin (plus the doubts added that way, which can feed many Shadow cards). I think that's important according to the film, where Bilbo fears to give it to Thorin to not make his dragon-sickness even greater:

BILBO: Balin... if Thorin had the Arkenstone, or if it was found, would it help?
BALIN: That stone crowns all. It is the summit of this great wealth, bestowing power upon he who bears it.
BILBO: Would it stay his madness?
BALIN: No, laddie. I fear it would make him worse. Perhaps it is best it remains lost.


•The Arkenstone, King's Jewel [No Culture]
Artifact
Resistance -2
Plays on Bilbo. Bearer is damage +1.
At sites 7 to 9, each companion or ally of
another culture than bearer's is strength
-2 (except if bearer is Bard).
Bard, Bilbo and Thorin gain this ability:
"Maneuver: Add 2 doubts to transfer
the Arkenstone to this character."
"'I will be avenged on anyone who finds it and withholds it!"

I put another lore text, from the book. I think it's simpler and much more attractive than the vitality +1 version, while keeping the "divide and rule" thing between the Dwarves vs Elves+Men coallition.

You might even make it "except and if bearer is Bard", to portray Bilbo being protected by Bard (the Great Barricade of the same Thorin pack affects only Dwarves, so we can think Bilbo isn't inside the Mountain with them).


I owe you the revision about the Nazgul. I've been working on another supplementary pack (22 cards) depicting the journey towards Erebor. I'll post it soon.

[-Enola-]

Ok, for the Nazguls, see the new images here.

http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Boosters2.html

Also, see some new changes on the Bolg Shadow. One problem was the high number of damage Thorin could make, so I change the Bow.


- Savage Warg : Ok, but a strength 10 would be make the card much more stronger than the other Wargs. I think it's strong enough now.

- Dwarven Song : I wanted to make the version you suggest, but I think it's far too strong if the Free Peoples player could play 3 artifacts and/or possessions with Bombur. The Free Peoples player has to make a choice. We will test it first.

- Shadow Arkenstone : I need a much simpler version. Players need a card which can be easily used. Moreover, with a bonus for the bearer, players didn't know if it was a Shadow card or a FP card.... In order to avoid a misunderstanding, I prefer a strength reduction on the card than a resistance reduction (Thorin and Bard don't have any resistance). The strength reduction on allies has no impact. The transfer to Bard is now a simple discard of the problem, Bilbo is more afraid of disobeying Thorin than give him the Arkenstone. I propose this :

• The Arkenstone, King's Jewel :
Cost (2). [No Culture] Artifact.
Strength -1.
Plays on Bilbo.
At sites 7 to 9, each time a companion is overwhelmed, wound bearer twice.
Thorin gains this ability: "Maneuver: Add 2 doubts to transfer the Arkenstone to Thorin (or 4 doubts to discard this artifact)."


Great for the new pack !!  


PS: New image of Azog commander.