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Author Topic: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game  (Read 266530 times)

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April 09, 2016, 09:14:21 AM
Reply #360

-Enola-

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #360 on: April 09, 2016, 09:14:21 AM »
Hello Durin's Heir, I'm glad to hear from you again ;).

Ok I change most of the cards as you expected.

- Pity: only +2 in strength, otherwise Noble Intentions will be too weak ([Dwarven] culture is not enough). I don't think the replay part is necessary, removing a lot of doubts with this strategy could be too strong. It's ok now.

- Wrath of the Dragon: with the new Shadow effect, the text was far too long (7 full lines). I propose a much simpler version with the same Shadow effect (good for other Shadows to counter-draft).

- Twisted Gold of Dragon: the [Dwarven] support area artifacts are weak in this game. So now, I don't think it's a good idea of discarding it. In order to play the Arkenstone first, I change the first part of the card.

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April 15, 2016, 07:54:13 PM
Reply #361

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #361 on: April 15, 2016, 07:54:13 PM »
Hello Durin's Heir, I'm glad to hear from you again ;).
Thank you my friend. I'm glad to hear from you too. But I won't be posting too frequently due to time problems :(.


I will only talk about Pity by now.... Wrath of the Dragon and Twisted Gold will have to wait. The rest looks very good.

- Pity: Ok for +2 strength :up:. But the replay part is totally necessary to make Bilbo a significatively better fighter. I agree that the doubt remotion can be easily abused, so Pity must provide another effect when Bilbo wins (besides, the Accorn already removes doubts)... what then?

Look at Riddles in the Dark... if Bilbo loses a riddle game, there is no way to recover The One Ring (or Sting, or Burglar's Contract...). So Pity might "play a [Shire] card from your discard pile". Or even better, "take a [Shire] card into hand from discard pile", which forces you to wait until next turn to play a [Shire] item or follower (less pleasant but prevents abusing the Accorn ;)), and allows you to interact also with events like Barrels, Skillful Negociator and even another copy of Pity for double moves or the next turn.

I'd change also the replaying cost to "discard 3 cards from hand", because this pack already exerts too much (3 other cards exert Bilbo, and 1 exerts the dwarves) and doesn't heal. That way drawing cards becomes more important: Ori (+ his best friend Balin) and Barrels will help Bilbo to fight. On the other hand, discarding cards from hand weakens your Shadow side, can consume too soon your resources (decking out) and limits the use of your other FP resources in hand.


(0) Pity [Shire]
Event • Skirmish
Make Bilbo strength +2. If he wins this skirmish, you may prevent all wounds to losing minions to take into hand a [Shire] card from your discard pile.
You may discard 3 cards from hand to play this event from your discard pile.
"'It was pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and mercy.'"

You made optional the "if he wins" trigger ("you may"), which is really good to make clear to players that the wound prevention trigger happens only once, no matter how many copies of Pity you (re)played.
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”  - Malcolm X

April 24, 2016, 07:36:28 AM
Reply #362

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #362 on: April 24, 2016, 07:36:28 AM »
I was working these ideas for a long time, please take a look and let me know what you think.

- Copying the gametext of sites: In the old FOTR block Hobbit Farmer, Silinde and Uruviel MoL provided a mechanic to copy the text of sites 1, 3 and 6. It was really cool but lamentably was abandoned soon. I believe it'd be really nice if we include it in the HDG; the site cards would get much more importance in the draft.

A way to include that mechanic (without changing any current card) is to have 4 new different cards that mimick a site, and each player picks 1 randomly (just like the 4 different versions of Gandalf and Bilbo). The cards would look like this:

[2]Lobelia Sackville-baggins, Bilbo's Covetous Cousin [Shire]
Ally • Site 1 • Hobbit
Strength: 2  Vitality: 3
Lobelia Sackville-baggins has the game text of site 1.
Fellowship: Exert Bilbo to replace an opponent's site 1 with your own site 1.
"'Lobelia again most likely,' he thought. 'She must have thought of something really nasty, and have come back again to say it. It can wait.'"


While Hobbit Farmer et al targeted only sites good to the FP side (and only your own sites), we might also use that mechanic to help the Shadow side (I always wanted a card that copied Moria Stairway :'(). So those 4 randomly-picked cards might be 2 FP and 2 Shadow. Those Shadow cards might look like this:

[2]Things Still Unnamed [Gollum]
Condition • Support Area
Shadow: Transfer this condition to a mountain or underground site. This condition gains that site's game text.
Skirmish: At an underground, exert a minion twice to make it strength +2.
"Even in the tunnels and caves the goblins have made for themselves there are other things living..."

So this condition can copy the text of Smaug's Den... but first site 8 must be already in play, which limits the possible abuses (Watchful Orc can help at site 7 to see 1 site ahead). Other useful sites to copy are Thrór's Throne, Northern Slopes, Dale, Erebor... even Wooded Steep Cliff if you can transfer this card before the fellowship moves there.

So... what do you think?



- Elrond's Pack: I wonder what direction will take this pack. We know of 2 tools to include for Elrond (Vilya and Hadafang) and there's Lindir, but there's still nothing more. For the remaining 3 FP cards, I've been thinking in these 3 different paths to follow:

- [Gandalf] It might focus on the White Council meeting, including Saruman (another version) + his Staff. Lindir needs Wise characters, and the pack still doesn't include a 3rd Wise character to spot, so Saruman would come in handy. Saruman then would be heading the attack on Dol Guldur.
- [Gondor] It might focus on the Northern Dúnedain (allies and friends of Elrond and Gandalf), there are 2 things respecting them indeed present in the Hobbit films: the Shards of Narsil and the "Company of Northern Dúnedain" (a Man follower or ally, there's a picture of them burying the Witch King ;)). Those cards can bridge the races of Elves and Men, a sort of "Last Alliance" or HIDAN theme.
- [Elven] It can simply focus on elven things. Tools, events, characters, followers: an "Elven Cavalry", a "Steed of Rivendell", "Musical Elves" or so... Bows? Swords? Spears? Banners? "Green Food"? Events to heal, to play sites (Elrond reads Thrór's Map), something about Glamdring and Orcrist perhaps, the dwarves closing ranks at Thorin's command... My imagination is running dry :(...


About the Shadow, I believe it should be Sauron himself (Elrond's worst nightmare!). Another version of him, just like Azog and Bolg have new versions in the add-ons of the Thrain and Mirkwood packs. I'd accompany Sauron with his terrible servants:

[9]Sauron, Still Uncomplete [Sauron]
Minion • Maia
Strength 15  Vitality 4  Site 5
Fierce. Damage +1.
Wise allies may participate in skirmishes.
Sauron is strength +1 and twilight cost -1 for each Ring artifact you can spot.
"'Don't be absurd! He is an enemy quite beyond the powers of all the Dwarves put together, if they could all be collected again from the four corners of the world.'"

A straightforward beatdown Sauron. The pack'd provide 2 rings (Vilya and... see below!), + The One Ring (main deck) so Sauron might reach a strength of 18 (to overwhelm Gandalf + Glamdring if not bearing a follower); the more rings he can spot, the less "uncomplete" he will be). If meets the Sauron Pack, every part of the [Sauron] Ring of Thrór would be useful: +1 strength, a total of damage +2, and the assignment skill would make Sauron's presence won't be calling Wise allies to the fight.

(A side note: I really love that quote of Gandalf at the Unexpected Party!)

(0)Nine for Mortal Men Doomed to Die [Wraith]
Artifact • Ring
Plays to your support area.
Maneuver: Remove [4] to make until the regroup phase this artifact a fierce, damage +1 Nazgûl minion that has 10 strength and 1 vitality, and cannot take wounds. This card is still an artifact.
"'...proud and great, and so ensnared them.'"

I'm a bit obsessed with that mechanic, but seems to me perfect to portray these unkillable, unstoppable servants. This is like twilight Nelya with 2 burdens, but truly immortal (except if overwhelmed). Of course, Thorin can easily defeat this Nazgûl, but then he won't be able to face other threatening minions ;). It'll be useful not only for beatdown shadows, but for swarm decks too as the cost is low and paid during maneuver, and doesn't need to be in hand. A last thing: if meets the Nazgûl pack, can bear a Dol Guldur Blade for a total str 12 dmg+1, which won't be discarded after the turn ends (a good reason to use Nori's skill).

Again... what do you say?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 08:11:37 AM by Durin's Heir »
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”  - Malcolm X

April 24, 2016, 08:10:21 AM
Reply #363

-Enola-

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #363 on: April 24, 2016, 08:10:21 AM »
Thank you for your proposition. I was on vacation last 10 days.

I think the strength +2 is redundant if it can be played from the discard pile. In an emergency case at site 9, you can discard you hand to make easily Bilbo strength +4/+6 and with Dori it's really strong.

I propose this : there isn't always a [Shire] card in the discard pile and Bilbo's pity helps all the [Dwarven] Company.

(0) Pity [Shire]
Event • Response
You may discard 3 cards from hand to play this event from your discard pile.
If Bilbo wins a skirmish, prevent all wounds to losing minions to take into hand a [Dwarven] or [Shire] card from your discard pile.
"'It was pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and mercy.'"


EDIT : I just saw your new post, I will answer later. I think Burning Fir Cones will be in the Elrond Pack. So, we have a slot for a new card in the Wizard Pack for Beorn or Radagast (like your healing [Gandalf] spell) ?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 08:16:53 AM by -Enola- »
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April 24, 2016, 08:33:07 AM
Reply #364

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #364 on: April 24, 2016, 08:33:07 AM »
Thank you for your proposition. I was on vacation last 10 days.
Cheers my good friend! :up: ;)

I think the strength +2 is redundant if it can be played from the discard pile. In an emergency case at site 9, you can discard you hand to make easily Bilbo strength +4/+6 and with Dori it's really strong.

I propose this : there isn't always a [Shire] card in the discard pile and Bilbo's pity helps all the [Dwarven] Company.
Good point. Interesting new version. But Also A Took will be taking a [Dwarven] card from discard pile, so seems a bit similar. I believe it can be too weak if only triggered when Bilbo wins the skirmish. It can do something different than giving strength to Bilbo, something like "Skirmish: Heal Bilbo. If he wins this skirmish...". Discard 3 cards = heal Bilbo; abuse it and your Shadow will be weak, abuse it further and the deck will just dissapear...

That's only a quick idea. But the pack doesn't provide a single way to heal wounds, and 4 cards already exert so some healing for Bilbo will be good to make the rest of the cards much better (besides your good point that having such resource in discard pile is always very useful). And if Bilbo will need to win skirmishes, that means he'll be often in the front line, so he will get wounds from fighting.

(0) Pity [Shire]
Event • Skirmish
Heal Bilbo. If he wins this skirmish, you may prevent all wounds to losing minions to take into hand a [Shire] or [Dwarven] card from your discard pile.
You may discard 3 cards from hand to play this event from your discard pile.

EDIT : I just saw your new post, I will answer later. I think Burning Fir Cones will be in the Elrond Pack. So, we have a slot for a new card in the Wizard Pack for Beorn or Radagast (like your healing [Gandalf] spell) ?
Hmmm, interesting. Although Burning Fir Cones doesn't have a lore conection with Elrond/Rivendell, but if there's a strong Wizard presence in that pack (either Gandalf or Saruman), then won't discord too much.

There isn't yet a card to turn Beorn into an unstoppable tank bear... that might replace the Fir Cones. I'll be thinking in other ideas to portray, but this is a rough idea of how that bear-shape trick might be:

[3] His Wrath Was Redoubled [Gandalf]
Event • Skirmish
Exert 2 companions to transfer Beorn to a [Dwarven] or [Gandalf] character. That character is strength +2 and damage +2. If bearer is killed, return Beorn to your support area.
"In that last hour Beorn himself had appeared... The roar of his voice was like drums and guns; and he tossed wolves and goblins from his path like straws and feathers."

So you allow Beorn to help a Dwarf or Gandalf (not Bilbo, it'd be OP). But now Beorn doesn't give strength +2, but strength +4 and dmg+2 to that Dwarf or Wizard. If he wins, you can grab this event back due to Beorn's text, so he can jump to another skirmish on and on... Until you can exert no more (2 exertions is heavy), or bearer loses the skirmish.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 09:34:20 AM by Durin's Heir »
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”  - Malcolm X

April 25, 2016, 08:03:57 AM
Reply #365

-Enola-

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #365 on: April 25, 2016, 08:03:57 AM »
Pity: I think the healing of Bilbo will cause the same problem: against a mass wounding Shadow (Bolg for example), you can heal a lot during skirmish. I think a response action is great, maybe a stronger one ? I change Pity for this

(0) Pity [Shire]
Event • Skirmish
You may discard 3 cards from hand to play this event from your discard pile.
If Bilbo wins this skirmish, prevent all wounds to losing minions to make a [Dwarven] companion strength +2 until the regroup phase.

We can't take back [Shire] cards discarded with Riddles in the Dark (but it has a way to prevent it). Moreover, a Bilbo fighting strategy will help now all the Company.

His Wrath Was Redoubled: This event is too weak for its cost (exert 2 companions), I think something really strong about the transformation of Beorn into bear could be great. Maybe a [Gandalf] follower replacing Beorn? Or just an event?

Lobelia: I don't think more intial randomness could be useful. But, if we have some place in the new packs we can use these abilities whose mimick a site.

Elrond's Pack: This pack will probably be only focused on [Elven] whose home site are 3. Lindir will probably have a new game text.

Burning Fir Cones: This event will eventually be in the Traveller's Pack instead of another [Dwarven] card. We need then a Warg in that pack to have a similar context.


Travellers Pack

(0) Dwarven Cloak [Dwarven]
Possession • Cloak
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] companion or Bilbo.
The twilight cost of each [Dwarven] event is -1.
Response: If bearer is about to exert, discard 2 [Dwarven] cards from hand to place no token for that exertion.
"He hung his hooded cloak on the nearest peg..."

[2] Dwarven Thirst [Dwarven]
Event • Fellowship
Discard X cards from hand to heal X [Dwarven] companions.
"'Ale on the count of three! One... Two... Up!'"

[2] Never Forgave, Never Forgot [Dwarven]
Event • Skirmish
Make a [Dwarven] character strength +2 and damage +1. You may attach a [Dwarven] follower from your support area to a companion (without paying its aid cost).
"'The fire was red, it flaming spread; the trees like torches blazed with light.'"

[2] Also A Took [Dwarven]
Event • Skirmish
Make Bilbo strength +3. If Bilbo wins this skirmish, you may take a [Dwarven] skirmish event into hand from your discard pile.
"'It never ceases to amaze me. The courage of Hobbits.'"

[2] Burning Fir Cones [Gandalf]
Event • Maneuver
Spell.
Exert Gandalf and spot X Dwarf followers to wound a minion X times (except Smaug). Then, if the fellowship is not at a forest, discard a [Dwarven] follower.

(0) Betsy Butterbur [Gandalf]
Ally. Man. Strength 1. Vitality 2. Site 1.  
Exert Betsy Butterbur to reveal the top 10 cards of your draw deck. Take up to 2 [Dwarven] cards revealed into hand. Shuffle your draw deck.
"'The Dragon of Erebor is on my mind, and I do not think that he will be forgotten by the grandson of Thrór.'"


[4] Furious Warg [Gundabad]
Possession • Mount. Strength +3, Vitality +1.
Bearer must be a [Gundabad] Orc.
Bearer is fierce.
Response: If an event is played, discard this possession to cancel that event.

[2]Bill Ferny Senior [Sauron]
Minion. Man. Strength 4. Vitality 3. Site 2.  
Assignment: If this minion is unwounded, assign him to Thorin.
"'A promise of payment... for your head.'"

« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 02:42:40 AM by -Enola- »
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May 06, 2016, 07:50:20 PM
Reply #366

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #366 on: May 06, 2016, 07:50:20 PM »
I will answer only a part now. I'll answer all your other points later, and also some older ones like the Shadow Arkenstone and the Orkish Bow.

Pity: I think the healing of Bilbo will cause the same problem: against a mass wounding Shadow (Bolg for example), you can heal a lot during skirmish.

- Pity: Bilbo's pack has no healing and has 3 cards that exert himself (Burglar's Contract, Skillful Negociator and Old Thrush), besides Barrels that exerts Dwarves. Bolg's pack will feast will all those exertions. Only Barrels will help against regroup wounding. Skillful Negociator can absorb some pre-regroup wounds, but hardly more than those it needs: Elrond uses his vitality to heal so only if he takes 3 wounds will be worthy of that exertion of Bilbo and that wound he won't heal at regroup. So Bilbo's pack doesn't have a good counter to Bolg's Hunters. A healing trick will be very useful, not only against that pack but also against the exertions done by Bilbo's pack itself.

Healing is good, but look in detail, discarding 3 cards is really expensive for medium sized decks. And huge decks aren't good on sealed or draft games, due to the limited copies of important cards; this card has only max 2 copies, so you can't rely on this to cycle large decks. Balin won't help too much because he's too expensive. Besides, to remove many wounds per turn you need to ditch 6 cards to heal 2 wounds, or 9 cards to heal 3; there are few drawing tricks to draw more: Ori, and Barrels (but at regroup). Riddles in the Dark puts an additional peril in discarding 3 cards. All in all, any abuse on this discard-to-heal will not only deck you out, but also weaken your FP tricks and Shadow. I believe it's well balanced.

Your new version of Pity is a good card but departs too much from the "pity" concept, which should orbit around recovering and preservation. And is too similar to the offensive Also A Took.


- Riddles in the Dark: I believe this card needs to have a minion on the board. It makes little sense to me to play riddles with a wall, and if there is no minion losing a riddle game won't be important to the Shadow player. And you can ditch The One Ring by merely having more pairs of cards in hand than the FP player. I have 2 ideas to change it:

- No twilght remotion, and to use "spot a minion". If a riddle kills your last minion, there won't be more riddles.
"Response: If Bilbo exerts or takes a wound, spot a minion and discard 2 cards from hand to discard a [Shire] card (except Bilbo). The Free Peoples player may discard 2 cards from hand to prevent that and wound a minion."

- No twilght remotion, and instead of wounding a minion if you lose, you need to exert a minion to use it.
"Response: If Bilbo exerts or takes a wound, exert a minion and discard 2 cards from hand to discard a [Shire] card (except Bilbo). The Free Peoples player may discard 2 cards from hand to prevent that and wound a minion."


- His Wrath Was Redoubled: I don't think it's weak, although I agree that the cost is very limiting. Beorn will be giving str +4 and dmg +2, which makes a barehanded Balin or Gandalf str 11 dmg+2, or Dwalin str 11 dmg+3, or Thorin + Orcrist + a [Dwarven] follower str 15/16 dmg+4/5. Beorn's own text will be retrieving this event, to transfer Beorn to another skirmish on and on...

Perhaps the event should be a pump for Beorn without exertions, with a potential of transfering him again for 2 exertions:

[3] His Wrath Was Redoubled [Gandalf]
Event • Skirmish
You may exert 2 companions to attach Beorn to any [Dwarven] or [Gandalf] character (without paying his aid cost). Then, make his bearer strength +2 and damage +1.

So "you may" transfer Beorn, or not. Then he will give a total str+4 dmg+1. If you have a 2nd copy, you can play it to make bearer total str+6 dmg +2. So it'd be a pump for Beorn, and a potential new transference for 2 exertions.

I think something really strong about the transformation of Beorn into bear could be great. Maybe a [Gandalf] follower replacing Beorn? Or just an event?
Hmmm, an event (or a condition like Enraged for Ents, if you want to break your own card-designing rules). But not a new follower or ally version of Beorn, because there is already a Beorn card and the new card shouldn't remove the usefulness of the previous.

Another option is Radagast's Sled, as Radagast can only fight at site 5.


- Lobelia: You are right, more randomness is troublesome. Perhaps a fixed 1x FP add-on for the main deck (like the 5 Shadow add-ons), something like Thorin showing his royal mission and emblems on a town of good guys (sites 1, 3 and 6):

EDIT: Changed the "Emblemed Bracers" for an "Emblemed Belt" (fits better the book and films):

[2]Thorin's Emblemed Belt [Dwarven]
Possession • Belt
Bearer must be Thorin.
At the start of your turn, you may spot a sanctuary or a site 1. During this turn, this card has the game text of that site.
"'Thorin son of Thrain son of Thror King under the Mountain!' said the dwarf in a loud voice... the gold gleamed on his neck and waist... 'I have come back.'"

The lore text is when he reveals himself to the Lake-towners. Both players will then be copying a site 1, 3 or 6 at their choices. Sites 1 are useful (Bag End draws, and Bilbo's Kitchen plays a [Dwarven] follower from deck) and two of three sites 6 too (Town Hall plays weapons, and Esgaroth plays allies) but all sites 3 are useless. To copy a site, you must spot it so you won't copy site 6 until the mid or late game.

The Shadow side can have Not At Home copying sites, with slight changes:

[2]Not At Home [Gundabad]
Condition • Support Area
Each time a [Dwarven] companion is played at site 5 or higher, exert him once (or twice if there is a [Dwarven] companion in the dead pile).
Shadow: Transfer this condition to a site (except sites 5 and 8). This condition gains that site's game text.

5 card lines, so the lore text is preseved. Copies any site except 5 (too migthy anti-Gandy) and 8 (I believe we don't want Smaug at site 9). Powerful options are Rhudaur to play your conditions, Erebor and Dale if you spot 6 comps, Lake-town to play an Orc for -4 twilight at site 6, Wooded Steep Cliff to get double exertions at site 4, and at site 9 Thrór's Throne and Northern Slopes.


- Elrond's Pack: Ok to focus it on site 3 Elves. Perhaps instead of Hadafang, a generic "Elven Sword" will be better to save a card slot. But please give a chance to The Shards of Narsil, we might make a good card with it.



Soon I'll post the rest.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2016, 12:00:24 PM by Durin's Heir »
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”  - Malcolm X

May 08, 2016, 05:18:46 PM
Reply #367

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #367 on: May 08, 2016, 05:18:46 PM »
- Town Hall: This card is OK. But if you rewrite it as a fellowship special ability (with a "limit once"), cards that copy sites will utilize its text in other sites (or twice at site 6). That means more importance to this site during the draft.

"River. Sanctuary. Fellowship: Exert a [Dale] ally to play a weapon from your discard pile (limit once)."


- Burning Fir Cones: I don't think it's a good idea to have it in the Travellers Pack. I'd rather have it in Balin's pack or the Blue Mountains pack, as it'll discard Dwarf followers and those packs will be intensive in event play (To Me! O My Kinsfolk!) or in direct follower replay.

The problem with the Travellers pack is that it works with card discarding and recycling (and with events, which are immediatly discarded). The Shovel is key to recycle the events and the discarded cards, and shouldn't be excluded at all cost (besides, the pack needs a permanent strength bonus like that small weapon). The pack doesn't provide outer support from followers or allies, and as such the other components of the pack have similar importance to keep the Company relying well on itself: wound prevention and remotion (Dwarven Cloak and Dwarven Thirst), solid pumps (Never Forgave and Also a Took, and this "Hand Axe" shovel) and card fetching (Betsy / A Chance Meeting).

The Thirst and the Cloak depend on the Shovel recycling, otherwise will deck you out. So I believe there's no room here to add the Burning Cones, but given the follower dependance it'll be ok in Balin's or Blue Mountains pack.


- Wizard Pack: Don't remove the Warg presence there. The current Savage Warg is good against [Gandalf] guys, but also gives Gwaihir more use and importance. And with either Radagast's Sled or a Beorn event, Wargs are the correct foes.


- Betsy Butterbur: Nice adaptation. Is actually better than A Chance Meeting as costs no twilight nor exertions on companions, while the event is too expensive at the mid and late game (where Gandalf can be absent, the wounds stack and take toll, and a little more twilight increases a lot the risks). But the current version of The Prancing Pony can't play Betsy from the start. And Betsy can't be recycled by Balin. So either change the Pony to be able play her, or keep A Chance Meeting but with a cost reduced to [1] or (0) and no exertions (only spotting Thorin and Gandalf).

A possible Prancing Pony might be this:

The Prancing Pony
Site 1
At the start of the turn, each player may take into hand a site 1 ally or a Man minion from his or her draw deck.


- Furious Warg: Seems good, really interesting and powerful, and does a nice contrast with the [Isengard] Wargs which counter instead special abilities :up:. But the Travellers pack will be better in my opinion with The Last Lights of Durin's Day + Ferny. The Quest was in peril more due to time issues and mercenaries/spies, than by wargs tracking their trail. This Furious Warg will be better in Balin's or the Blue Mountains pack.


- Bill Ferny Sr: Really interesting. And powerful :o: The assignment skill prevents Thorin (if not defender +1) from fighting a big minion like Smaug, Azog, a Troll... Perhaps you meant "While unwounded, Bill Ferny Senior can only be assigned to Thorin and by a Shadow player", which would make him a str +4 pump like his son Ferny SSF.

You can make a bigger minion in the same fashion as this (with an Assignment skill), by using a picture where 2 men (obviously Ferny and Squint) follow Thorin at the Streets of Bree (that's the only part when those 2 can be seen together at the same picture). "Group of bad guys" minions are usually stronger, like Uruk Vanguard or Goblin Patrol Troop.


A last detail:

- Never Forgave, Never Forgot: I found this quote from the ROTK Appendices, when Thráin and Thorin talk after the Battle of Azanulbizar. The part highlighted in red might be a better lore text:

Thráin said to Thorin Oakenshield: '...Will you come with me back to the anvil? Or will you beg your bread at proud doors?'

"'To the anvil,' answered Thorin. 'The hammer will at least keep the arms strong, until they can wield sharper tools again.'"



...


"Older" topics.

- The Shadow Arkenstone: Your "Blade Tip" version is cool, like Blade Tip + Lemenya LoM. But the main problem is that it affects bearer only, while the dispute for the Arkenstone caused entire nations of good guys to become enemies. It weakened the position of the nation that didn't have it.

Now I agree that it must be self-discardable. But only Thorin should do that, to overcome its evil influence he'd had to strain himself a lot. Not Bilbo getting doubts, but instead Thorin getting exertions. So I made a self-discardable "Divide and Rule" Arkenstone, identical to my previous proposal except by the underlined parts.

[2]The Arkenstone, King's Jewel [No Culture]
Artifact
Strength -2
To play, spot Thorin. Plays on Bilbo.
If bearer is Bard, he's strength +2 and
[Dwarven] characters are strength -2. If bearer
is Thorin, non- [Dwarven] allies are strength -2.
Bilbo gains this skill: "Maneuver: Add 1
doubt. Attach the Arkenstone to Bard or
Thorin, or exhaust Thorin to discard it."

"'What is that? In your hand... Show me!'"

It's true, Bard didn't want the Arkenstone for himself, but while Thorin still doesn't pay the ransom he must keep it to protect his people (and his Elf allies) by mantaining a strong position to negotiate. So Bard must be a possible bearer.

Requires spotting Thorin because he is the one who's obsessed with it, and if Thorin discards it he can be easily killed; if killed, any Shadow player can play another copy of this evil Arkenstone and Dwarves will be in bad shape with no way to discard it and no one to represent them and prevent the strength reduction.

The transference adds 1 doubt, but the self-discard skill adds 1 doubt too because it too requires a transference: is Thorin who must have it in his hands before discarding it.



- Orkish Bow: The flavor is really good. But can return Sting to hand, which has the same -2 str effect as The Shadow Arkenstone on Bilbo (the Aggressor, Gollum, and swarms like Bolg's Army will feast). Lorewise, Bilbo didn't lose his sword at Mirkwood so this Bow should exclude [Shire] weapons (perhaps [Gandalf] weapons too).

This Orkish Bow will trigger naturally in good part of the sitepath: all sites 2, 5 and 6 (and at some sites 4 and 7: Wooded Cliff, Underground Lake & Erebor); while the rest will have Watchful Orc. Therefore, it'll be very influential. Then, returning a weapon to hand so frequently will clog the opponent's hand (like Vilya + Elrond HtGG against Shadow conditions).

That can be avoided: if the Bow instead nullified both the bonuses and the text of a weapon, the figthing effect would be exactly the same but there wouldn't be any hand clog. So I made a version that spots a weapon, and while the weapon is at a forest or river it loses all text and bonuses:

[1] Orkish Bow [Gundabad]
Possession • Ranged Weapon
Strength +1
Bearer must be a [Gundabad] Orc.
Bearer is an archer.
When you play this possession, you may spot a non- [Shire] weapon. While its bearer is at a river or forest, that weapon loses all game text and bonuses.


I owe you still the Orkish Bow and The Last Lights of Durin's Day.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 05:30:37 PM by Durin's Heir »
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May 10, 2016, 12:45:36 PM
Reply #368

-Enola-

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #368 on: May 10, 2016, 12:45:36 PM »
There are a lot of things :), but I will only answer a part of these suggestions.

- Town Hall: Ok for this text. Moreover, Gandalf could be play at site 6: Glamdring will be back with this way.

- Burning Fir Cones: I don't know yet if this [Gandalf] event will stay in the Wizard Pack or not. Beorn is not very well depicted in the Wizard Pack (I didn't like the Radagast's sled in the Hobbit movies... :(), so the bear could have a slot here. The bear could be unpredictable and wound [Dwarven] companions (it's just a first idea), but I also prefer a simple card ("Enraged" is great, maybe as a [Gandalf] event?).
If Burning Fir Cones is not in the Wizard Pack, the best themed pack for it is the Travellers Pack (adventures on the road to Erebor). Balin and the Blue Mountains Pack will be focused on their own abilities (and also other [Dwarven] followers). Maybe we can remove another card from the Travellers Pack?

- The Shadow Arkenstone: We have 2 different points of view. I prefer the local impact on the bearer. On your side, you prefer an influential Arkenstone: but the card becomes really complicated to read. Maybe a support area Arkenstone could be the solution? Moreover, in the story, only Thorin and the [Dwarven] folks want it back. The other free peoples want only the treasure (the Arkenstone is just a part of the treasure).

- Bill Ferny Sr: I just want to make that card as a wink to LOTR TCG ;). You are probably right, this is maybe better:
The Free Peoples player may not assign a character to skirmish Bill Ferny Senior. At the start of each skirmish involving Bill Ferny Senior, discard him if not assigned to Thorin.

« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 12:57:15 PM by -Enola- »
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May 10, 2016, 05:23:21 PM
Reply #369

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #369 on: May 10, 2016, 05:23:21 PM »
Take your time to read and answer. I'll be waiting to hear the rest ;).

About the [Gandalf] add-on in the Wizard Pack, I have 3 new different ideas you might consider instead of the Sled and a Bear-shape event:

- "Urgent Measures", a maneuver spell to pump Wizards and make them fight.
- "Radagast's Hedgehog", a follower that makes a [Gandalf] guy fight.
- "The Great Eagles", a big ally that helps FP guys being swarmed.

Here they go:

[3] Urgent Measures [Gandalf]
Event • Maneuver
Spell.
Discard X cards from hand and exert X [Gandalf] characters to make them strength +X (limit +3), damage +X and can be assigned to skirmishes until the regroup phase.
"'But if I am not deceived, things are now moving which will require the union of all our strength.'"

The more Wizards you exert, the stronger they will be. The idea is to show Wizards fighting together against each minion in their path; if Gandalf faces a Nazgûl, then Radagast and Saruman's hands and staves will be there to help him, and wreak a greater havoc.

[2]Radagast's Hedgehog [Gandalf]
Follower • Beast
Strength +1
Aid - Exert Radagast and add [1].
Bearer must be a [Gandalf] character.
Bearer may be assigned to skirmishes. Minions skirmishing bearer lose all strength bonuses from possessions.
"'Come on. Move back! Give him some air, for goodness sake!'"

This is Sebastian the Hedgehog (but I dislike that name). Again, a tool to make Radagast (and potentially Saruman) fight. Nazgul Swords and Wargs lose their strength bonus when fighting bearer (Radagast, or Saruman if those packs meet, or even Gandalf!). Unlike the previous, this effect lasts until the end of the turn (or until the follower is removed).


[6]The Great Eagles [Gandalf]
Ally • Site 4 & 9 • Eagle
Strength 11  Vitality 3
Damage +1.
Gwaihir's bearer is strength +1.
Skirmish: If a companion or ally is skirmishing more than 1 minion, exert this ally to wound twice a minion with the lowest strength in that skirmish.
"...shapes small yet majestic against the distant glow."

Dwalin or Bilbo might be fighting 2 or more bad guys. But the Great Eagles come to the rescue, and start killing the weakest. This ally can fight by itself at sites 4 and 9.

Another option for that Skirmish skill is to remove that weakest minion from that companion/ally's skirmish, and assign it to fight The Great Eagles:

[6]The Great Eagles [Gandalf]
Ally • Site 4 & 9 • Eagle
Strength 11  Vitality 3
Damage +1.
Skirmish: If a companion or ally is skirmishing more than 1 minion, exert this ally to remove from that skirmish a minion with the lowest strength and assign it to skirmish this ally.
"'The Eagles!' he shouted. 'The Eagles are coming!'"


...


- The Shadow Arkentstone:
Moreover, in the story, only Thorin and the Dwarven folks want it back. The other free peoples want only the treasure (the Arkenstone is just a part of the treasure).
Yes, Bard prefers the gold coins to rebuild their home. But that's not as simple to accomplish, it's Thorin who must give away the treasure. And dwarves took as a heavy insult to have to pay for anything that was theirs due to minning or crafting (Aüle's gifts to them; it was even a religious issue to craft minerals, just like Aüle crafted them from the foundations of mountains). Much worse if it's a stolen heirloom of such value. He wasn't willing to give away any part by the pressure of a war force, instead of by reason and trust. For Bard to get gold, Thorin must first defeat his pride (and thus "discard" the influence of the stone).

"Then Thorin burst forth in anger: 'Our thanks, Roac Carc's son. You and your people shall not be forgotten. But none of our gold shall thieves take or the violent carry off while we are alive.'"

"...Thorin hailed them: 'Who are you,' he called in a very loud voice, 'that come as if in war to the gates of Thorin son of Thrain, King under the Mountain, and what do you desire?'"

"'...The price of the goods and the assistance that we received of the Lake-men we will fairly pay - in due time. But nothing will we give, not even a loaf's worth, under threat of force. While an armed host lies before our doors, we look on you as foes and thieves.


So Thorin has a lot to battle inside his heart, before any other folks see a piece of the treasure. If Thorin defeats his pride, the evil influence of the Arkenstone will disappear; it depends on him. Meanwhile, the Arkenstone will be an insurance for Bard's claim, for the survivors of the ruin of Esgaroth.


We have 2 different points of view. I prefer the local impact on the bearer. On your side, you prefer an influential Arkenstone: but the card becomes really complicated to read. Maybe a support area Arkenstone could be the solution?
Hmmm, yes, it's hard to read. I have an easier version:

- Removes the specific boost on Bard ("If bearer is Bard, he is strength +2 and..."), and the printed str reduction that originates that need (since a weaker Bard doesn't make sense with a strong negotiator).
- Removes the lore text, so the ability can be written in 4 lines in a more legible way.

[2]The Arkenstone, King's Jewel [No Culture]
Artifact
To play, spot Thorin. Plays on Bilbo.
If bearer is not Thorin, [Dwarven] characters
are strength -2. If bearer is not Bard,
non- [Dwarven] allies are strength -2 -3.
Bilbo gains this ability: "Maneuver:
Add 2 doubts to transfer the Arkenstone
to Bard or Thorin (or exhaust Thorin to
discard it)".

So the story is this: Thorin is angry for not having the Arkenstone; his companions are tired of searching on and on (-2 str). The Elves-Men army is exposed to attacks outside, and loses all negotiation potential with the coming of Dáin (-2 str too).

Bilbo can pass it to Thorin and ease his anger, but also wants to give Bard his share and prevent a war. Either way means fear and uncertainty (2 doubts). So he will pass it to any of them: the part that doesn't have it will be in problems. But if Thorin defeats his pride (exhausts himself), he'll pay to Bard the 14th share of Bilbo and everyone will be happy and united.

No matter what is your FP side, this new Arkenstone requires Bilbo to pass is ASAP (or discard it). Keeping it on Bilbo is the worst possible option.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 05:46:32 PM by Durin's Heir »
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May 12, 2016, 01:23:12 PM
Reply #370

-Enola-

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #370 on: May 12, 2016, 01:23:12 PM »
- The Shadow Arkenstone: There are some problems with this card. The strength reduction on allies will probably have no interesting effect for the Shadow player's strategy, allies don't skirmish as often as possible. Maybe the first two effects could be sum up in one sentence? Moreover, the exhaustion of Thorin will be often used (especially if he is already).
I'm sorry but I prefer the Arkenstone I proposed, it depicts simply the Arkenstone's effects on bearer.

- Orkish Bow: The text focus now only on [Dwarven] companions. I need a way to punish a well-stuffed Thorin. Returning Orcrist in hand is maybe too evil? Only canceling its effect seems ok, but I would like a better sentence ^^.

- His Wrath Was Redoubled: New card in the Wizard Pack. Beorn has now 2 focused cards for him.

- Pity & Riddles in the Dark: Since Riddles in the Dark can discard all [Shire] cards, I break the Free Peoples condition rule here ;). The text of Pity is now far more easier to read.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 02:00:54 PM by -Enola- »
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May 12, 2016, 05:30:50 PM
Reply #371

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #371 on: May 12, 2016, 05:30:50 PM »
- Pity: Interesting new version! You are right, the Riddles or Smaug can discard any [Shire] condiiton. But I wonder how Bilbo will get The One Ring back if it gets discarded... there's the Old Thrush, but it's one-shot-only as it can't be recycled (save by itself, but that's totally useless). Still, great improvement! :up:

So it may prevent those wounds to "either heal a companion or take a [Shire] card from your discard pile into hand".

- Orkish Bow: Seems good. :up: If you want to balance it, perhaps an alternative cost can be added to prevent the return to hand. "The Free Peoples player may... to prevent that:"

- "exert its bearer": since it's a wounding pack, exertions will stack. If you pack some pumps, Thorin can self-exhaust and then you can try to kill him by surprise.
- "exert 2 companions": stronger, but doesn't exert bearer necessarily.

In both cases, with 4x Bows in the draft you can play 2 Bows easily on the same turn for better punishment by the FP prevention.

The [Dwarven] weapons are meant to get better chances to win skirmishes; by winning, you prevent 2+ wounds (1 or + for not losing, and 1 or + for the vitality that'd be used at regroup to wound your companions). So exertions vs wounds is a situation where the Shadow player always wins, the FP player just decides what option punishes less.

- His Wrath Was Redoubled: Another interesting one! I never thought about Out Of the High Airs, well done! :up: I'd only change the lore text, with all that free room I prefer a full (that is, non-trimmed) quote from the book.

Beorn can return this to hand when his bearer wins a skirmish, and The Eagles Are Coming can replay him the next turn. Great synergies!



- The Shadow Arkenstone: At least a thing is clear to me: is Thorin who must discard it. You are right: to exhaust him is not a good answer, as you point right if he's already exhausted there's no cost. Then "exert Thorin twice" or even "thrice". Or "wound Thorin twice"...

If must be a "Blade Tip" or a "Divide and Rule" Arkenstone, that's another issue. Both are good ideas in my opinion. I have my reasons to prefer a stone that affects either allies OR companions, although as the Thorin pack lacks allies, by itself the 2 doubts will be the only punishment :(. But when combined with other packs like the White Council, Mirkwood, Esgaroth and the brand new Rivendell/Elrond pack, the str reduction can be huge...

I agree with you, -2 str on non-Dwarf allies may be not enough. Perhaps -3 will be better: Bard/Percy/Volunteers str 3 (or 5 with an Iron weapon); Thranduil str 6, Legolas/Tauriel str 3; Erlond/Saruman str 5, Galadriel str 0! That's a good reason to either pass it to Bard, or discard it.

But in either case, is Thorin who must discard it.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 05:55:27 PM by Durin's Heir »
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May 19, 2016, 12:26:17 PM
Reply #372

-Enola-

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #372 on: May 19, 2016, 12:26:17 PM »
The LOTR TCG French Open took me a lot of time. After the Hobbit tournament last week, I change a lot of cards in the supplementary packs and the [Wraith] condition.

The idea is to reinforce swarm abilities of the shadow part: if one player doesn't take enough cards for his swarm deck, it could be difficult for him.

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May 20, 2016, 06:50:20 PM
Reply #373

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #373 on: May 20, 2016, 06:50:20 PM »
The LOTR TCG French Open took me a lot of time. After the Hobbit tournament last week, I change a lot of cards in the supplementary packs and the [Wraith] condition.
Cheers! I wish I was there!

Interesting changes! Makes sense to make swarms easier in a draft format. :up:

I have some small remarks, but almost all gets my total approval:
- Cool idea with the skill exchange between Assaulting Goblin and Demolition Troll! =D>
- I like too the [Sauron] Ring of Thrór making Nazgûls cost -2, and the assignment skill being cheaper.
- Makes sense that the [Wraith] condition requires to exert [Dwarven] companions, as Gandalf had to leave The Company to attend The White Council :up:.
- The Great Enemy is now [Wraith] so can't be recycled by Danger Wrapped in Shadows.:up:
- You changed the lore text of Nenya! ;D
- Azog's Mace is frightening! Play it with The Wolves Army and combine it with a mount, and you got a mighty swarm engine. :up:
- You changed Pity as I suggested. And is now unique, which wasn't necessary to limit its effect but is better for the draft. :up:
- Caught in a Sack now can exert Bilbo twice. Makes sense. :up:
- Ancestral Feuds is really powerful now, and increases the flavor. But gives some time for the FP player to prevent discardin all weapons (Ancestral Knowledge). So it seems balanced.
- Fimbul now plays any minion from deck. :up:


Now some remarks and suggestions:

- Riddles in the Dark: Now needs a minion in play :up:. But I wonder if exerting a minion to trigger, and then wounding a minion if losing the riddle is too much... Probably will require playtesting.

- Dark Bats is now Grishnakh, Orc Captain. Great! :up: Perhaps might do something at a battleground or at site 9, something like "You may remove [1] and a doubt at site 9 to play this minion from your discard pile" (2 lines). That'd mean extra minions for a swarm (not costing cards in hand), and hand extension; but each Dark Bat will cost that way [2] and a doubt.

- Underground Lake is now helpful only for the Shadow players. That's right :up:, is cool to play the Riddle Game soon but... what if it played any condition (FP or Shadow) instead? That way the Shadow player'd play the Riddle Game (or anything else), while the FP player'd play the only FP condition ever made: Pity. It'd be really great for the flavor!

"Underground. River. Maneuver: Play a Shadow condition from your draw deck (limit once per turn player)." In that case, Pity might cost a bit of twilight (1 or 2) to allow the Shadow player to play a more expensive condition.

- He Is Summoning His Servants: It might give each Wise ally a skill (alike the Shadow Arkenstone) to assign itself directly to a [Wraith] or [Sauron] minion, otherwise Sauron's skill will try to assign Nazgûls to companions and Wise allies will be left outside the struggle (remember the Sauron + Nazgûls combo will require -2 twilight per Nazgûl!). So the 1st part of this [Wraith] condition would say:

"Each Wise ally gains this ability: "Assignment: Exert a [Dwarven] companion to make this ally participate in skirmishes and assign it to a [Sauron] or [Wraith] minion." But those are 4 lines, not 3.

The idea is to allow Wise allies to "strike first" (as Gandalf wanted, that's in the Unfinished Tales), before Sauron's hand attacks The Company and destroys all plans to kill the Dragon (and restore the realms of Dale and Erebor). Being assignment abilities, both will intercalate and will make the assignment phase really interesting! Now, that uses 4 lines instead of 3. To compensate, the Shadow skill can be worded this way to use 2 lines only: "Shadow: Discard an Orc. Play a Nazgûl at twilight cost -2 from your discard pile."


...

The idea is to reinforce swarm abilities of the shadow part: if one player doesn't take enough cards for his swarm deck, it could be difficult for him.
If you really want to make a good swarm card, a "Divide and Rule" Arkenstone is much better than a "Blade Tip" one...

Now, I've been reconsidering the punishment on allies. What's the point of making allies str -2, or even -3? Bard, Legolas, even Saruman will still serve as cannon fodder. It'd be better to make them cannot participate in skirmishes, unless Bard is bearing the Arkenstone (or Thorin discards it):


[2]The Arkenstone, King's Jewel [No Culture]
Artifact
To play, spot Thorin. Plays on Bilbo.
If bearer isn't Thorin, [Dwarven] characters are strength -2; if isn't Bard, non- [Dwarven] allies can't participate in skirmishes.
Bilbo gains this ability: "Maneuver: Add 2 doubts to attach the Arkenstone to Thorin or Bard (or to discard it if you wound Thorin twice)."

So there are 4 options:
Bilbo: Non-Dwarf allies can't fight, and Dwarves are str -2.
Bard: Dwarves are str -2. Add 2 doubts.
Thorin: Non-Dwarf allies can't fight. Add 2 doubts.
Discard it: Add 2 doubts, and wound Thorin twice (you said you wanted more anti-Thorin cards ;)).

Any FP based on (non- [Dwarven]) allies will have to rely on Bard, that includes The White Council and Elrond packs. If the Arkenstone is in play and Bard doesn't bear it, those allies will simply not fight.

As said before, this is a good card for swarm decks as it either removes allies from the fight (except Iron Hills Dwarves), or makes Dwarf companions strength -2. And for beatdown decks too.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2016, 07:35:46 PM by Durin's Heir »
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May 22, 2016, 01:04:45 AM
Reply #374

-Enola-

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #374 on: May 22, 2016, 01:04:45 AM »
- Riddles in the Dark: Yes, this card needs playtesting.

- Dark Bats: This card was created more for the Goblin Swarm than the Azog Swarm. However, this card will be very good in the Azog Swarm. Moreover, Dark Bats will be a minion from the discard pile for (1) at Battle of the Five Armies. We can add : "If you cannot spot 3 Orcs, the Free Peoples player may add 2 doubts to prevent it."

- Underground Lake: The idea is to take back a discarded Goblin Swarms (or not yet drawn), more than Riddles in the Dark. The conditions must be played from the draw deck and from the discard pile. Pity at (0) seems better for its effficency.

- He Is Summoning His Servants: The text is too long. This is the main card of the [Wraith] Shadow, and it starts with 4 card lines which are not a Shadow ability.... But the text must be clear, maybe cut the "assign to [Wraith] or [Sauron] minions part" ? If this condition is played, there will be [Wraith] minions....

- The Arkenstone, King's Jewel: I prefer an ability without Bard (only Thorin and Bilbo). It will be easier to playtest. The current Arkenstone makes Bilbo strength -2 or Thorin with Orcrist strength -2 or add doubts for Battle of the Five Armies, it is great for a swarm Shadow too ;).
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 09:41:01 AM by -Enola- »
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