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September 08, 2016, 04:43:33 PM
Reply #435

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #435 on: September 08, 2016, 04:43:33 PM »
We can propose some cards, but keep in mind that the mechanics must use Shadows cards from the main deck and have simple mechanics.
Alright. I'll keep that in mind. :up:

I'm not sure about the wound-evasion discussion: it's replacing dead Dwarves by new healthy Dwarves ? If it's the case, Not At Home is really good for that.
No, the discussion was about how the FP side will have a chance to prevent some of those massive wounds. At first, Bolg's Army was going to wound during Archery, but that gave no real chance to counter the wounding potential (no shields, limited healing, only Bofur preventing). So we solved it by making them Regroup wounding orcs, which gives time to try to prevent those wounds during Skirmish.

With a specialized Archery Shadow, that old problem resurges. So I believe many of these Goblin-town archers must be poorly trained (not very accurate), giving the FP player an alternative cost to evade the arrow. But to compensate that, be stronger and have a smaller cost. That way they'll have less chances of unavoidable wounds at Archery, but more chances of avoidable wounds at Skirmish.

Something like this: "At the start of the archery phase, the Free Peoples player may... ADD COST HERE... to make the minion archery total -1." (that's 3 or 4 lines, depending on the cost)

That cost may be "add a doubt" or "add [2]", and that resource may be harvested by another Shadow card to give better skirmish chances to a Goblin archer. Look at this:

[2] Goblin-town Bowman [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 7  Vitality 1  Site 4
Archer.
At the start of the archery phase, the
Free Peoples player add a doubt to
make the minion archery total -1.

It's Goblin Marksman's strength, but with Goblin Bowman's cost! Its arrow can be prevented by a doubt; then another card would be using those doubts, like this:

[1] Goblin Bow [Moria]
Possession • Ranged Weapon
Vitality +1
Bearer must be a [Moria] Orc.
Bearer is an archer.
Skirmish: Remove a doubt to make an Orc archer strength +2 (limit +4).

So Goblin Footman can become an archer. And will support any goblin archer's skirmish.

New versions can be done of Moria Archer Troop and Archer Commander. Tell me what you think.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2016, 04:24:26 PM by Durin's Heir »
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September 09, 2016, 06:02:23 AM
Reply #436

-Enola-

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #436 on: September 09, 2016, 06:02:23 AM »
Ok. After searching Goblin-Town archers in the first movie, I only find one (maybe two) correct images for archer minions.

After the tests on gemp, maybe we will change "add a doubt" for "discard a [Dwarven] follower" (with a stronger effect for the Shadow Player), that way the FP player will use To Me! O My Kinsfolk! a lot.

I PM Phallen with all the instructions to put the Hobbit Game on gemp. There will be two formats (I tell him to put only the first one at the moment):
- set 21 "Hobbit: A Short Rest": main deck with each FP event in 3 copies + Swarm Pack 1 + Beatdown Pack 1 + 4 supplementary packs (Bilbo Pack +  Mirkwood Pack + Thorin Pack + Wizard Pack)
- set 22 "Hobbit: The Clouds Burst": main deck with each FP event in 3 copies + Swarm Pack 2 + Beatdown Pack 2 + 4 supplementary packs (Dain Pack +  Esgaroth Pack + Thrain Pack + White Council Pack)
« Last Edit: September 09, 2016, 06:04:37 AM by -Enola- »
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September 09, 2016, 12:41:02 PM
Reply #437

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #437 on: September 09, 2016, 12:41:02 PM »
Ok. After searching Goblin-Town archers in the first movie, I only find one (maybe two) correct images for archer minions.
Great! But look at Goblin Archer and Moria Archer Troop: the first one is part of the latter group ;). So we can wring a lot out of a single archer, using both separate and group images.

After the tests on gemp, maybe we will change "add a doubt" for "discard a [Dwarven] follower" (with a stronger effect for the Shadow Player), that way the FP player will use To Me! O My Kinsfolk! a lot.
Interesting idea! Or both. If the alternative effect is only doubts, the corruption potential will be too strong; I was thinking about "discard 2 cards from hand" for some archers, but ditching [Dwarven] followers is better ;D. But keep doubts as one of the alternative costs, as it has a strong potential for cost/effect mechanics...

There's enough room for a Torture Machine. The Great Goblin mentions the "mangler" and the "bonebreaker" (there are some pictures at 2:23:21-26, EE). The torture could work with doubts and wounds...

[2] Goblin Bonebreaker [Moria]
Condition • Support Area
Shadow: Remove 2 doubts to play a [Moria] card from your discard pile.
Regroup: Discard a [Moria] Orc to wound a [Dwarven] companion. The Free Peoples player may add a doubt to prevent that.
"If they will not talk, we'll make them squawk!"

An Orc prepares to torture a Dwarf ("wound him"), but the Dwarf can speak parts of his plans ("add a doubt"). So this grinds the Company (which stacks with arrows), generates doubts (stacks with an alternative cost), and harvests doubts to play cards from discard (good for a Swarm).

Might be a possession instead (harder to discard, and gives Nori more importance). There's 1 spare line to add something like "Machine" or "To play, spot 2 [Moria] cards." This is of course only a prototype.


I PM Phallen with all the instructions to put the Hobbit Game on gemp. There will be two formats (I tell him to put only the first one at the moment):
- set 21 "Hobbit: A Short Rest": main deck with each FP event in 3 copies + Swarm Pack 1 + Beatdown Pack 1 + 4 supplementary packs (Bilbo Pack +  Mirkwood Pack + Thorin Pack + Wizard Pack)
- set 22 "Hobbit: The Clouds Burst": main deck with each FP event in 3 copies + Swarm Pack 2 + Beatdown Pack 2 + 4 supplementary packs (Dain Pack +  Esgaroth Pack + Thrain Pack + White Council Pack)
Agree, is better to implement in parts. And separate the Swarm/Beatdown packs 1 & 2.

But the Supplementary packs must be chosen according to lore, and I believe the Mirkwood pack (Elves) should be along with the Esgaroth pack (Men) and Dain pack (Dwarves), to get the whole Good forces of the Battle of the Five Armies together in The Clouds Burst. Besides, the [Sauron] Bolg is present in the Mirkwood pack, and it works better with Danger Wrapped in Shadows.

Thrain pack should be in "A Short Rest", I think. Neither Mirkwood nor Thrain pack provide weapons.

I like a lot that Goblin Song (Thorin pack) will be with The Great Goblin!!


EDIT: Searched for the moments when it's easy to see a Goblin archer (AUJ Extended Edition). There are at least 5 different archers:

- 2:27:22 Thorin kills a bowman (1)
- 2:27:46 Kili kills a bowman (2)
- 2:27:47 Two bowmen run towards Kili, and shoot (4)
- 2:27:49 Another Goblin bowman joins that group (5)
- 2:27:56 A bow can be clearly seen, when the Dwarves push the ladder
« Last Edit: September 09, 2016, 04:58:35 PM by Durin's Heir »
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September 10, 2016, 06:25:17 AM
Reply #438

-Enola-

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #438 on: September 10, 2016, 06:25:17 AM »
With the Mirkwood Pack in "The Clouds Burst" there will be too much strong allies in "The Short Rest". Thrain with the Ring of Thror will be better against Sauron and his Ring.
There will not be the 5 armies at the same time on the board, but it will be better like it is for the balance of the game.

I only found 3 correct images with the moments you proposed (and 2 are similar but as you said with the Moria archers it will be ok).

Goblin Bonebreaker is good, we will see how this Shadow will have to work after some tests on gemp with the other Hobbit cards ;).

Thank you for your answer to dmaz.

PS: It was fast, I receive all the cards for 16 players today (including the new cards) ;).
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September 10, 2016, 12:13:08 PM
Reply #439

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #439 on: September 10, 2016, 12:13:08 PM »
Ok then to let more allies in "A Short Rest". And since the FP armies are from sites 5, 6 and 9, makes sense to separate Mirkwood for the first part of the voyage. And Thráin's Ring vs Sauron's Ring will be a cool interaction! :up:

So besides Thranduil's elves, we'd have Radagast and no more allies (in Supplementary packs). But Radagast can't fight outside site 5 (and lacks any pump), which is a real shame. Perhaps will be good to make an "Additional Valid list" with some scarce cards to correct some game and lore imbalances (2 or cards 3 maybe). Former Herald would help him a lot, even if it was only 1x copy allowed (R-listed).

I only found 3 correct images with the moments you proposed (and 2 are similar but as you said with the Moria archers it will be ok).
That should be enough. There's need of 3 archers: 1x single archer, 1x group of archers and 1x unique commander. Perhaps one more. Plus the image of a Bow, that's all. Besides, there are some archer minions that aren't carrying bows at all (Orthanc Assassin, Desert Lord, Orc Archer Troop, Southron Murderer, some versions of Lurtz, and... Archer Commander itself!). So a picture with a Goblin standing tall, or in a higher ground, might be enough.

Goblin Bonebreaker is good, we will see how this Shadow will have to work after some tests on gemp with the other Hobbit cards ;).
I'm glad you liked that prototype. Yes, it'll need to test the previous cards.

There'll be also need of a unique archer, like Archer Commander or Ranged Commander. The main problem with Archer Commander in LOTR TG is being killed before his fellows can fight, so this version can have a lurker effect when at a specific terrain (underground I guess). That way Watchful Orc will be important in the culture:

[4] •Goblin Chieftain [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 8  Vitality 2  Site 4
Archer.
Each other Orc archer is strength +1 and twilight cost -1.
While at an underground site, skirmishes involving this minion must be resolved after any others.

6 lines. A mixture of Archer Commander and Ranged Commander (cost reduction is key for swarm shadows, moreover in absence of Goblin Runner or Goblin Armory to add twilight). "Orc archers" includes Narzug too (like the Goblin Bow prototype), so interacts with 2 main deck cards.


The Archer Troop might look like this:

[4] Goblin Archer Troop [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 8  Vitality 2  Site 4
Archer.
While you can spot another Orc archer, the minion archery total is +1.
At the start of the archery phase, the Free Peoples player may discard a [Dwarven] follower to make the minion archery total -1.

7 lines (the arrow evasion uses 4!). This one gives more incentive to dodge an arrow, because with 1 other archer they'll shoot together 3. So the cost to dodge is higher, the one you suggested. Its vitality is a bit lower than Moria Archer Troop's, that's to make Kili or Battle of Azanulbizar too mechanisms to evade the arrows (and the skirmish potential).

Thank you for your answer to dmaz.
:up: ;D

PS: It was fast, I receive all the cards for 16 players today (including the new cards) ;).
Great! The Smaug cards must look astonishing!


EDIT: Added the prototype for the Archer Troop.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 01:18:12 PM by Durin's Heir »
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”  - Malcolm X

September 12, 2016, 03:03:42 PM
Reply #440

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #440 on: September 12, 2016, 03:03:42 PM »
I just noticed something that worries me a bit... You said this:
The next 4 supplementary packs will be done to balance (or make more useful) some cards. So, we need playtest first.

And then this:
I PM Phallen with all the instructions to put the Hobbit Game on gemp. There will be two formats.
- set 1 "Hobbit: A Short Rest"
- set 2 "Hobbit: The Clouds Burst"

The problem is that the cards in those 2 formats can't be balanced/made more useful by any card that won't interact with them. So the 4 new Supplementary packs will either:
1) balance only Main Deck cards (the only cards shared by all formats), or
2) be included in one (or more) format(S) together with the cards specific of A Short Rest and The Clouds Burst.

Please tell me if I'm wrong... :-k
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”  - Malcolm X

September 16, 2016, 01:34:38 AM
Reply #441

-Enola-

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #441 on: September 16, 2016, 01:34:38 AM »
Sorry for the delay :(.

The problem is that the cards in those 2 formats can't be balanced/made more useful by any card that won't interact with them. So the 4 new Supplementary packs will either:
1) balance only Main Deck cards (the only cards shared by all formats), or
2) be included in one (or more) format(S) together with the cards specific of A Short Rest and The Clouds Burst.

Please tell me if I'm wrong... :-k

After some tests on gemp, we will see which cards will be less used or too much used. In order to balance it again, I will propose to replace a Supplementary Pack by a new one.

For example, if we don't use so much To Me! O  My Kinsfolk! in the "Hobbit: A Short Rest", we will remove the Mirkwood Pack (it's an example) from the Short Rest and put in the new Blue Mountains Pack which will use a lot of [Dwarven] followers. The Mirkwood Pack will be then in a 3rd format (with the Swarm Pack 3 and Beatdown Pack 3).

The next Packs will be done to balance the previous formats.
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September 16, 2016, 02:29:35 AM
Reply #442

-Enola-

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #442 on: September 16, 2016, 02:29:35 AM »
It's really good but I will simplify the Goblin-Town Shadow.


Goblin-Town Shadow (Swarm Pack 3)

3x [4] •The Great Goblin, Goblin-King [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 10  Vitality 3  Site 4
Fierce.
Each Orc archer is strength +1 and twilight cost -1.

Only Thorin can kill it now in skirmishes. He cannot be killed directly by Battle of Azanulbizar.


3x [5] Goblin Archer Troop [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 8  Vitality 3  Site 4
Archer.
While you can spot another [Moria] Orc, the minion archery total is +2.
At the start of the archery phase, the Free Peoples player may discard a [Dwarven] follower to make the minion archery total -2.

The [Dwarven] followers are now necessary to survive. If the FP player discards his followers this way, the Dwarves will be weaker against Goblin Chieftain.


3x [3] Band of Goblin-town Bowmen [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 9  Vitality 1  Site 4
Archer.
At the start of the archery phase, the Free Peoples player may add a doubt to make the minion archery total -1.

4x [2] Goblin-town Archer [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 7  Vitality 1  Site 4
Archer.
At the start of the archery phase, the Free Peoples player may add a doubt to make the minion archery total -1.

I want to change the ability of these last two minions. Maybe for weaker minions without any text?


3x [2] Goblin Bonebreaker [Moria]
Condition • Support Area
Regroup: Discard a [Moria] Orc to wound a [Dwarven] companion. The Free Peoples player may add a doubt to prevent that.
"If they will not talk, we'll make them squawk!"

We will test only with the second ability at the moment.



4x [1] Goblin Bow [Moria]
Possession • Ranged Weapon
Vitality +1
Bearer must be a [Moria] Orc.
Bearer is an archer.
Skirmish: Remove a doubt to make an Orc archer strength +2 (limit +4).

Really Good!


Now, I think all the "at the start of the archery phase" FP abilities will lengthen the duration of the game.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2016, 11:39:59 AM by -Enola- »
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September 17, 2016, 06:46:49 PM
Reply #443

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #443 on: September 17, 2016, 06:46:49 PM »
A lot to analyze and answer...

After some tests on gemp, we will see which cards will be less used or too much used. In order to balance it again, I will propose to replace a Supplementary Pack by a new one.
Hmmm, perhaps will be better to not replace any pack, and instead have 6 packs per format. The problem I see is that you'll make an experiment on Gemp to see how a complex card pool behaves. If you remove an important part of the complex, good part of the knowledge of the original meta will be useless. OR will at least require a very good logic effort to foresee the exact implicancies of the remotions (and that's even harder if the cards added aren't yet developed!)...


Goblin-Town Shadow

Alright, simpler is better. The total card count is 21, so 1 thing must be trimmed out.
The Goblin pack's name is too similar. I think will be better to give it a more disctintive name, like "Goblin Archery" or so.

I think all the "at the start of the archery phase" FP abilities will lengthen the duration of the game.
Hmm, that's highly probable. But will be more due to pondering the pros and cons of evading arrows, than due to spending too much time reading the texts (3 or 4 lines, but very easy to interpret). So players experienced with archery won't delay too much.


- The Great Goblin, Goblin-King: I really like this change! :up: With him on the board, Goblin Bow will give some base strength to Goblin Footman. And to himself; having a non-archer [Moria] Orc gives the Bows in hand more usefulness (as the Footman uses those in discard). Bravo!  =D> =D> =D>

He has still 4 spare lines. Lore text will use some, but I feel the pack can need another (short, simple) skill to tie some loose ends (see below)...

- Goblin Bow: I'm glad you like it! :up: The vitality is there to protect Goblin Footman, but can shield other [Moria] Orcs too. More vitality also reduces the need of a lurker text on bearer (or on the Great Goblin / Goblin Chieftain). Which simplifies and hastens the game ;).

3x [2] Goblin Bonebreaker [Moria]
We will test only with the second ability at the moment.
- Goblin Bonebreaker: I believe the shadow phase skill is very important. It's meant to give an incentive to spend doubts (instead of piling them for corruption), and give the pack a strong tool to replay minions. The other Orc swarm packs have Goblin Swarms, Azog Commander, the Wolves Army and Hidden Attack. Hatred Rekindled / Host of Thousands will be there but can be not enough to pull a swarm, or to keep a strong and constant pressure on the Company. If this condition won't play that role, perhaps the Great Goblin should have that skill (which uses 2 lines merely).

A nice thing about this machine is that Orcrist and Glamdring will be natural counters: "Biter" will be killing Orcs, while "Beater" will remove the doubts this condition will be piling/using. That's besides the usual skirmish enhancement that generic weapons provide ;).


- Goblin Archer Troop: I dislike this change, it'll be way too powerful. The problem is that after drawing one, the Shadow player will keep replaying 1 or 2 of these Goblins per site (Host of Thousands / Hatred Rekindled), but the FP player will be recovering the [Dwarven] followers at a much slower pace. Against that the FP will have only To Me! O My Kinsfolk!, and Balin to shuffle it into deck so you can try to randomly draw it soon; besides, Balin's exertions contribute to the grind. And remember that followers will be replenished only in Fellowship phase, that gives a strong stopping power (even if no minion survives!).

So I think it should cost [4] and add only 1 arrow when spotting another [Moria] Orc. The key is to note that the Company will deplete its resources much sooner than the Shadow side, so after that the Shadow archery will darken the light of day. And Yazneg will be discarding followers! At last, the less FP followers are, the harder will be for Dwarves to win skirmishes (more skirmish wounds).

I want to change the ability of these last two minions. Maybe for weaker minions without any text?
The problem is that the arrows must have an intrinsic way to be prevented. After shooting some companions to death (with non-avoidable arrows), the high strength of archers will be unnecessary as they'll swarm against exhausted companions (no need to overwhelm). That's the way Archery Shadows usually win games. So the arrow evasion skill must be present.

I don't like the name "Band of Goblin-town Bowmen". It's bloated with too many words. Perhaps "Goblin-town Band" will be better.

...

I've been thinking about another possible resouce that can be added, removing some copies of the Band of Bowmen (or even all copies, it's redundant with Goblin Bow and Goblin-town Archer)...

(0) Goblin Whip [Moria]
Possession • Support Area
Strength +2
Bearer must be a [Moria] Orc.
Shadow: Exert bearer to add [1] or draw a card (or both if at an underground site).
"They all laughed and stamped and clapped their hands, when the dwarves came running in, while the goblin-drivers whooped and cracked their whips behind."

A hand weapon that allows you to draw cards, or to add twilight a la Orc Taskmaster. There's no Goblin Armory / Scimitar here, so with this weapon the spare vitality of the Archer Troop and the Great Goblin can be used to get better resources for a swarm. And Goblin Footman will have more weapons to play (thus weapons in hand won't be useless). Finally, Watchful Orc gets a good reason to work with the Goblin-towners.

If you dislike adding this card on this pack but like the card anyway, it can be added to Balin's pack.


That's all.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2016, 07:40:58 PM by Durin's Heir »
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September 18, 2016, 11:51:23 AM
Reply #444

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #444 on: September 18, 2016, 11:51:23 AM »
Hmmm, perhaps will be better to not replace any pack, and instead have 6 packs per format. The problem I see is that you'll make an experiment on Gemp to see how a complex card pool behaves. If you remove an important part of the complex, good part of the knowledge of the original meta will be useless. OR will at least require a very good logic effort to foresee the exact implicancies of the remotions (and that's even harder if the cards added aren't yet developed!)...

With too much different supplementary packs in one format, some counter-cards will become useless or some too powerful: Thror's Throne, The Great Enemy, Jail, Alfrid, Terrifying Legend.... If we know well what happens in one format, we could balance it well. We could make it in the same way for the Draft Game.



Alright, simpler is better. The total card count is 21, so 1 thing must be trimmed out.

Thanks, I made a mistake. I remove a Goblin Town Band.


Hmm, that's highly probable. But will be more due to pondering the pros and cons of evading arrows, than due to spending too much time reading the texts (3 or 4 lines, but very easy to interpret). So players experienced with archery won't delay too much.

The problem is that the arrows must have an intrinsic way to be prevented. After shooting some companions to death (with non-avoidable arrows), the high strength of archers will be unnecessary as they'll swarm against exhausted companions (no need to overwhelm). That's the way Archery Shadows usually win games. So the arrow evasion skill must be present.

I don't know if "classic" mass wounding Shadows in LOTR are so problematic. Mass wounding Shadows must be able to win, with too much avoiding abilities it will be very hard. There are many ways to heal in the Hobbit Game and arrows can be easily avoided with Battle of Azanulbizar.

Btw, Bofur does the exact same effect than the new small archers, and he is not very used.... I prefer a simpler text at the moment on the weak archers.

3x [3] Goblin Town Band [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 7  Vitality 1  Site 4
Archer.
When you play this minion, you may spot 3 doubts to draw 2 cards.

4x [2] Goblin Town Archer [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 4  Vitality 1  Site 4
Archer.
When you play this minion, you may spot 2 doubts to draw a card.


Goblin Bonebreaker: I believe the shadow phase skill is very important. It's meant to give an incentive to spend doubts (instead of piling them for corruption), and give the pack a strong tool to replay minions. The other Orc swarm packs have Goblin Swarms, Azog Commander, the Wolves Army and Hidden Attack. Hatred Rekindled / Host of Thousands will be there but can be not enough to pull a swarm, or to keep a strong and constant pressure on the Company. If this condition won't play that role, perhaps the Great Goblin should have that skill (which uses 2 lines merely).

A nice thing about this machine is that Orcrist and Glamdring will be natural counters: "Biter" will be killing Orcs, while "Beater" will remove the doubts this condition will be piling/using. That's besides the usual skirmish enhancement that generic weapons provide Wink.

The use of doubts will be very strong with the Sauron Shadow. I don't know yet about a way to replay [Moria] cards from discard pile.


Goblin Archer Troop: I dislike this change, it'll be way too powerful. The problem is that after drawing one, the Shadow player will keep replaying 1 or 2 of these Goblins per site (Host of Thousands / Hatred Rekindled), but the FP player will be recovering the Dwarven followers at a much slower pace. Against that the FP will have only To Me! O My Kinsfolk!, and Balin to shuffle it into deck so you can try to randomly draw it soon; besides, Balin's exertions contribute to the grind. And remember that followers will be replenished only in Fellowship phase, that gives a strong stopping power (even if no minion survives!).

So I think it should cost 4 and add only 1 arrow when spotting another Moria Orc. The key is to note that the Company will deplete its resources much sooner than the Shadow side, so after that the Shadow archery will darken the light of day. And Yazneg will be discarding followers! At last, the less FP followers are, the harder will be for Dwarves to win skirmishes (more skirmish wounds).

Ok, but I want to add something specific for [Dwarven] followers (and simple). We can try this:

3x [4] Goblin Archer Troop [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 8  Vitality 3  Site 4
Archer.
If you cannot spot an attached [Dwarven] follower, the minion archery total is +1.


(0) Goblin Whip Moria
Possession • Support Area
Strength +2
Bearer must be a Moria Orc.
Shadow: Exert bearer to add 1 or draw a card (or both if at an underground site).

The Goblin Archery will need a lot of "natural" [Moria] archers, I prefer to keep 10 Orc archers at the moment in the pack.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 12:37:17 PM by -Enola- »
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September 22, 2016, 01:42:03 PM
Reply #445

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #445 on: September 22, 2016, 01:42:03 PM »
Btw, there will be a Hobbit tournament in Paris saturday (we are 5 players).

There are 11 preregistred players for the Hobbit Draft Game Open in Paris the 19th november ^^. I have cards for 16 players.
Hobbit Draft Game : http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr

September 22, 2016, 04:03:16 PM
Reply #446

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #446 on: September 22, 2016, 04:03:16 PM »
It's my time to be the delayed one... :(

With too much different supplementary packs in one format, some counter-cards will become useless or some too powerful: Thror's Throne, The Great Enemy, Jail, Alfrid, Terrifying Legend.... If we know well what happens in one format, we could balance it well. We could make it in the same way for the Draft Game.
Hmm, you're right about that. But replacing an entire old pack in order to balance an old format will require to calculate the impact this removed pack will have in the new Extension's format. That format will need its own proper balance. For instance, if Balin and Blue Mountains pack provide ways to replay followers, those packs will be needed to counter the Goblin-town pack (Archer Troop's follower discarding) and thus won't be easily removable... That's a lot of subtle interactions to balance, when developing the new packs. Replacing a pack will also confuse players (in both Gemp and Draft Game). So I dislike that idea.

An Additional Valid List will solve the problem. If a card in the new Extension reduces OP combos or increases the play of usually unused cards in another format, that card alone can be added to that format (instead of the whole pack that contains it). Must be a small list, that way is easier to remember by players and needs less playtesting. And changes less the flavor of the format.

Then each format would have 2 exclusive Shadow packs, 4 exclusive Supplementary packs, and a short, specific "Additional Valid" list. The specific balances between those Shadow and Supplementary packs wouldn't be disturbed by packs of other formats, with the exception of intentional selective additions to balance it even more.

I don't know if "classic" mass wounding Shadows in LOTR are so problematic. Mass wounding Shadows must be able to win, with too much avoiding abilities it will be very hard. There are many ways to heal in the Hobbit Game and arrows can be easily avoided with Battle of Azanulbizar.
This was discussed when developing Bolg's Army. It was changed from Archery (almost no way to counter) to Regroup wounding (Skirmishes are between). Even so, it needed to be downgraded many times (and Not At Home didn't exist yet!). All that means the FP counters to mass wounding aren't that strong: Elrond, Óin, Bofur, and Lore of Imladris. Only 4 (or up to 6) cards in a whole sea. And AWINL and Bilbo's Kitchen can grab some of them sooner.

Battle of Azanulbizar can kill up to 2 Orc archers = -2 wounds. For the cost of 1 wound. So it's not reliable.

Mass wounding Shadows in LOTR TCG can be countered by mass healing, frequent prevention (like Isildur's Bane), shields and at some extent by choke. But here there isn't even multiple copies of companions to heal them. So in the Hobbit Game those Shadows are problematic. Bolg and Hidden Attack had many previous versions that were far too powerful.


But note that the intrinsic arrow-evasion has a good side: the cost benefits the Shadow's mechanics too. If many doubts prevent your arrows, the Bow can make those Goblins win their skirmishes with ease, which also means Goblin Bonebreaker will have them at regroup to spend. Or push harder to overwhelm companions (Archer Troop + 1 Bow + 2 doubts = str 12, overwhelms Fili or Kili). Or even try to corrupt.

The same happens with follower discarding: reduces the skirmish power that can prevent more wounds. Reduces the availability of follower abilities (heal, prevent wounds or overwhelming, discard conditions, draw cards, damage bonus). Gives twilight, as the followers will be replayed...

So I'd keep the intrinsic prevention on those smaller archers. Keep in mind that the Bow will use doubts, so the skills that provide doubts mustn't be removed. Besides those 2 smaller archers, there's only Goblin Bonebreaker to add doubts. But the Bonebreaker needs the Goblins alive after their skirmishes, so the Bow will need doubts before regroup to make the Bonebreaker efficient.


The use of doubts will be very strong with the Sauron Shadow. I don't know yet about a way to replay [Moria] cards from discard pile.
Still, you can use this skill 3 times or max 4 in the same Shadow phase, and you must have twilight to play those cards. Might be "remove 3 doubts" then to be used only in key moments, or "remove [2] and 2 doubts" for a frequent use but with smaller chances of flooding the board with minions (Sauron already needs [5] or [7]).


Ok, but I want to add something specific for [Dwarven] followers (and simple). We can try this:

3x [4] Goblin Archer Troop [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 8  Vitality 3  Site 4
Archer.
If you cannot spot an attached [Dwarven] follower, the minion archery total is +1.
I like this skill. But doesn't discards the follower, so doesn't promote the use of To Me! O My Kinsfolk. I like the previous better. The only problem I got with that previous version is the addition of 2 new arrows, it should be 1 only.


(0) Goblin Whip [Moria]

The Goblin Archery will need a lot of "natural" [Moria] archers, I prefer to keep 10 Orc archers at the moment in the pack.
Agree. But also will need to draw cards. Perhaps the Great Goblin can have a skill to draw cards, like this: "Shadow: Play an Orc to draw a card." After all, he's the Goblin-king!



Btw, there will be a Hobbit tournament in Paris saturday (we are 5 players).

There are 11 preregistred players for the Hobbit Draft Game Open in Paris the 19th november ^^. I have cards for 16 players.
I wish I was there! Those who can, join before it's too late!
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 02:10:31 AM by Durin's Heir »
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”  - Malcolm X

September 23, 2016, 12:40:28 PM
Reply #447

-Enola-

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #447 on: September 23, 2016, 12:40:28 PM »
After the Hobbit will be on gemp, we will discuss of all this. After all, maybe there will be no necessary changes.

Sorry but I don't like ths ability:
"At the start of the archery phase, the Free Peoples player may add a doubt to make the minion archery total -1."
It will lengthen the duration of the game. If you give the FP player a choice on important abilities, it will always make the Shadow too weak and it will be harder to test it.

Once we will test these new cards a lot of cards will change, so we only need the "spirit" of the cards. The Swarm Pack 3 and Beadown Pack 3 look like that at the moment:

-----

Shadow Sauron Swarm

---

[1] Orc Ambusher [Sauron]
Minion. Orc.
Strength 5. Vitality 2. Site 5.
The site number of each Orc is -1.
When you play this minion, you may discard a Shadow condition to draw 2 cards.

[1] Orc Sentinel [Sauron]
Minion. Orc.
Strength 5. Vitality 2. Site 5.
The site number of each Orc is -1.
When you play this minion, you may spot 4 Shadow conditions to draw 2 cards.

[3] Malevolent Orc [Sauron]
Minion. Orc.
Strength 7. Vitality 2. Site 5.
When you play this minion, you may remove (1) to play an Orc or a [Wraith] minion from your discard pile.

3x [1] Hidden [Sauron]
Condition.
Bearer must be an Orc.
Skirmish: Exert bearer to wound a character he is skirmishing once (or twice if you spot 4 Shadow conditions). Discard this condition.

3x [3] •Rise of the Necromancer [Sauron]
Condition • Support Area
Each [Sauron] minion is strength +1.
Shadow: Play up to 2 [Sauron] conditions from your discard pile. Discard this condition.

3x [2] Dark Sorcery [Sauron]
Condition • Support Area
To play, spot a [Sauron] card.
At the start of the maneuver phase, you may exert a minion to play a Shadow condition from your discard pile.



-----

Shadow Goblin Archery

---


3x [4] •The Great Goblin, Goblin-King [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 10  Vitality 3  Site 4
Fierce.
Each Orc archer is strength +1 and twilight cost -1.

3x [4] Goblin Archer Troop [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 8  Vitality 3  Site 4
Archer.
If you cannot spot an attached [Dwarven] follower, the minion archery total is +1.

3x [3] Goblin Town Band [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 7  Vitality 1  Site 4
Archer.
When you play this minion, you may spot 3 doubts to draw 2 cards.

4x [2] Goblin Town Archer [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 4  Vitality 1  Site 4
Archer.
When you play this minion, you may spot 2 doubts to draw a card.

3x [2] Goblin Bonebreaker [Moria]
Condition • Support Area
Regroup: Discard a [Moria] Orc to wound a [Dwarven] companion. The Free Peoples player may add a doubt to prevent that.
"If they will not talk, we'll make them squawk!"

4x [1] Goblin Bow [Moria]
Possession • Ranged Weapon
Vitality +1
To play, spot a [Moria] card.
Bearer is an archer.
Skirmish: Remove a doubt to make an Orc archer strength +2 (limit +4).



-----

Shadow Mirkwood

---

4x Ancient Grudge. Cost (0). [Mirkwood] Condition - Support area.
When you play this condition, add a [Mirkwood] token here for each other [Mirkwood] condition you spot.
Regroup: Discard this condition or remove 2 [Mirkwood] tokens from here to make the Free Peoples player discard a card borne by a [Dwarven] companion. The Free Peoples player may add a doubt to prevent this.
                                    
3x Elven Jails. Cost (3). [Mirkwood] Condition - Support area.
When this condition is discarded from play, return all cards stacked here to its owner's hand.
Skirmish: If Bilbo is not assigned to a skirmish, remove [3] to stack a [Dwarven] companion assigned to a skirmish here. The Free Peoples player may add a doubt to prevent this.

3x •The Elvenking, High and Mighty. Cost (1). [Mirkwood] Condition - Support area.
Each time the fellowship moves, add (1) for each other [Mirkwood] condition you can spot.
Maneuver: Play a Shadow condition (or 2 [Mirkwood] conditions) from your discard pile. Discard this condition.


-----

Shadow Stone Giants

---

4x Granit Giant : Cost (12). [Moria] Minion. Giant. Strength 12. Vitality 5. Site 4.
At a mountain site, this minion is twilight cost -8.
This minion may not be assigned to a skirmish.
Archery: Exert this minion to discard a card at random from your hand. If it is a Shadow card, each the fellowship and minion archery totals are +2 (limit +4).

4x Lavastone Giant : Cost (16). [Moria] Minion. Giant. Strength 16. Vitality 6. Site 4.
At a mountain site, this minion is twilight cost -10.
This minion may not be assigned to a skirmish.
Archery: Exert this minion to discard the bottom card of your draw deck. If it is a Shadow card, each the fellowship and minion archery totals are +2 (limit +4).

4x Boulder Rock: Cost (0). [Moria] Possession. Vitality +2.
Bearer must be a Troll or a [Moria] Giant.
Archery: Discard this possession to make the minion archery total +2.

3x Stone returns to Earth : Cost (0). [Moria] Event - Archery.
You may remove from the game 4 other Shadow cards in your discard pile to play this event from your discard pile.
Discard a minion to shuffle up to X [Moria] cards from your discard pile into your draw deck, where X is this minion's vitality.


----

Shadow Corrupted Men

---

3x Gangsquad Member : Cost (2). [Men] Minion. Man. Strength 7. Vitality 2. Site 6.
When the Free Peoples player assigns this minion to a character, exert that character.
Maneuver: Place another minion from play beneath your draw deck to return a weapon to its owner's hand.

3x Gangsquad Spies : Cost (3). [Men] Minion. Man. Strength 8. Vitality 2. Site 6.
When the Free Peoples player assigns this minion to a character, exert that character.
Shadow: Exert this minion and discard a Shadow card from hand to play a [Men] card from your draw deck or discard pile.

3x •Net Mender : Cost (2). [Men] Minion. Man. Strength 7. Vitality 3. Site 6.
When the Free Peoples player assigns this minion to a character, exert that character.
Skirmish: Place another minion from play beneath your draw deck to return an exhausted companion (except Bilbo) to its owner's hand.

3x •Alfrid's influence : Cost (1). [Men] Condition - Support area.
The Free Peoples player must exert a companion (except Gandalf) to assign a [Men] minion to a skirmish.
Shadow: Remove [2] to discard the bottom card of your draw deck. If it is a minion, you may play a [Men] minion from your discard pile.

3x •Braga : Cost (2). [Men] Minion. Man. Strength 7. Vitality 3. Site 6.  
Fierce.
Skirmishes involving [Men] minions must be resolved before any other.
Skirmish: Place another minion from play beneath your draw deck to make a [Men] minion strength +3.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 06:35:55 AM by -Enola- »
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September 24, 2016, 08:12:38 AM
Reply #448

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #448 on: September 24, 2016, 08:12:38 AM »
After the Hobbit will be on gemp, we will discuss of all this. After all, maybe there will be no necessary changes.
That's possible. Ok to not discuss it now, but we must be prepared if it needs changes (that way we save time and troubles). Let's give it a low priority, so don't answer about that if you don't have anything more important or better to do ;).

Sorry but I don't like ths ability:
"At the start of the archery phase, the Free Peoples player may add a doubt to make the minion archery total -1."
It will lengthen the duration of the game. If you give the FP player a choice on important abilities, it will always make the Shadow too weak and it will be harder to test it.
Yes, it might lenghten the game. But no, it won't necessary make the Shadow too weak; look at Sauron's assignment skill, which gives options too. Both alternatives to the original effect are doubts, but Sauron (Danger Wrapped in Shadows) uses doubts with much less efficiency than Goblin Bow. So the alternative cost is really, well... costly.

Once we will test these new cards a lot of cards will change, so we only need the "spirit" of the cards.
Agree.



I'll be commenting in more detail on your new Shadow packs soon.

But "Thranduil the condition" has caught my attention... Is it meant to be ruled as a unique card with the FP Thranduil? Because Boromir, My Brother and Boromir (any version) share name, but can both be on the board at the same time. To avoid confusion, you can rename it "The High and Mighty Elvenking".

I thought the Mirkwood Shadow could have Thranduil as a minion (but with that different name), something like this:

[5] • The Elvenking, High and Mighty [Mirkwood]
Minion • Elf
Strength 11  Vitality 4  Site 5
Each time an Elf uses a special ability, you may exert an [Elven] or [Dwarven] character.
Shadow: Exert the Elvenking twice to play a Shadow condition (or 2 [Mirkwood] conditions) from your discard pile.

5 lines. It's just an idea, probably too far from your current mechanics. But I'd really love to see Thranduil and Thorin in a sword duel! This minion also punishes Elf allies when using their skills (Elrond, Legolas, Tauriel and... Thranduil itself!).

I really belive the Mirkwood culture should feed on the [Elven] culture (Ancestral Feuds already does that), or interrupt/punish their aid on the Company. Then, for instance, Ancient Grudge could "add a [Mirkwood] token here for each [Elven] ally or other [Mirkwood] condition you spot". Not both, as it can be too powerful. But in absence of Mirkwood conditions, or in abundance of Elven allies, having that option can be better.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 09:15:52 AM by Durin's Heir »
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”  - Malcolm X

September 26, 2016, 06:35:07 AM
Reply #449

-Enola-

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #449 on: September 26, 2016, 06:35:07 AM »
I prefer not having Thranduil as a minion if he is an ally on the board at the same time. The sentence "add a [Mirkwood] token here for each  Elven ally or other [Mirkwood] condition you spot" seems a bit long, moreover the most frequent [Elven] ally will be Elrond, the others will be rare.

Ok, I will change the title.
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