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Author Topic: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game  (Read 266513 times)

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August 01, 2017, 10:55:20 AM
Reply #540

Zacharr

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #540 on: August 01, 2017, 10:55:20 AM »
I sent one back with the images  :up:

August 02, 2017, 01:46:00 AM
Reply #541

-Enola-

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #541 on: August 02, 2017, 01:46:00 AM »
Thank you, I sent you the new Dale cards.

I am on holiday, I don't have access to my ftp server to change the cards on hobbitdraftgrame.free.fr. I will change them at the end of August.

I'm still working on the Shadow Pack 3, I'm modifying (almost each day) the first post of this topic.
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August 12, 2017, 03:23:41 PM
Reply #542

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #542 on: August 12, 2017, 03:23:41 PM »
- New Gandalf: Seems clever to add a drawing engine to compensate FoT's unability to play Dwarves from deck. But I fear that removing the cost reduction line for Thorin will simply destroy any deck based on Balin (as you must play him soon, but not at the cost of not starting Thorin). That'll harm severely the usefulness of the Balin Pack, and others like the White Council, Wizard and Thráin which are intensive in events. So I see 3 solutions (there might be more):

1.- Trim the loretext to 1 line, and reintroduce the cost reduction line for Thorin. This is the simplest option. The lore text would end up like this: "Well, that's decided. It will be very good for you..." and most amusing for me. I shall inform the others."

2.- You can change the "drawing skill" to a "play a [Dwarven] companion from deck" skill, fueled too discarding a Dwarf follower. Then, 6x Dwarf followers would be 6x AWINL for Dwarf companions, at the high expense of losing follower support. Then 1x to 3x TMOMK would balance that cost, gaining the importance you wished. "Fellowship: Discard a [Dwarven] follower to play a [Dwarven] companion from your draw deck."

3.- You can add 3x At You Service to Balin's pack (instead of Careful With These) and avoid all changes in your new Gandalf. That'd also add some flavor (since Dwalin and Balin were the first to arrive that way). But won't help other packs that need Balin's recycling skill.

In option #1, I'd change Gandalf's cost to [1] (to start him with Thorin + Balin/Dwalin); in the others I'd set it to [2] (to start him with Thorin alone). That's 'cause I simply dislike the idea of being able to play at site 5+ a totally fresh Wizard companion for (0) (with AWINL, Radagast or Saruman)... I know Gandalf FoT has a discard prevention skill, but he can still be stacked on Jail and it can be discarded later (or Yazneg can reduce Dwarf followers to 1 or less by site 4; or the FP player can intentionally discard all but 1 Dwarf follower before moving to site 5).


Now, thinking about the discard prevention skill... why discarding Gandalf must necessarily be a bad thing? You might try a different approach on the "Gandalf leaves us" problem. It might trigger some benefit. The 2 lines of the prevention skill might be used for a short skill, triggering "If Gandalf is discarded" so "you may"...
- "heal a companion" / "remove a doubt" / "remove [3]"
- "play a non- [Dwarven] card from your draw deck" (Gandalf departs but sends some help: a home 5 ally like Radagast or Thranduil, a follower like Beorn or the Old Thrush...)
- might even "return him (and any card he bears) to your hand".

The [Gandalf] Packs that need him in play already have ways to prevent his discarding (or to replay him), so won't be harmed at all. I like the last one, it might help with decks that exert Gandalf too much: you get at site 5 or 6 a totally fresh Gandalf for [1] or [2], + [2] for Glamdring. Of course this is not a necessity, only a suggestion to add more possibilities and flavor.

So with all those possibilities in mind, this is an example of a new Gandalf FoT:

[2] •Gandalf, Friend of Thorin [Gandalf]
Companion • Wizard
Strength 7  Vitality 4
Wise.
Fellowship: Discard a [Dwarven] follower to play a [Dwarven] companion from your draw deck.
Response: If Gandalf is discarded, return him (and any card he bears) to your hand.
"Well, that's decided. It will be very good for you... and most amusing for me. I shall inform the others."


Hope this helps, and doesn't come too late.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 01:35:05 AM by Durin's Heir »
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August 16, 2017, 09:05:02 AM
Reply #543

-Enola-

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #543 on: August 16, 2017, 09:05:02 AM »
You are right about Balin, I thought about it, but I wanted to have a simple Gandalf with only two sentences (one passive and one active). Drawing cards seems much more fun than just searching a [Dwarven] companion in the draw deck (it will be too strong with 4 companions in the starting). I also change Careful with These in the Balin Pack to avoid the problem of Balin.

If Gandalf is in the discard pile, all [Gandalf] events are useless. It's important to have other ways to keep Gandalf in play.

Gandalf, Friend of Thorin Cost 1 Strength 7 Vitality 4
The twilight cost of Thorin is -2.
While you can spot 2 Dwarf followers, Gandalf cannot be discarded.
Fellowship: Discard a Dwarf follower and add a doubt to draw 3 cards.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 09:16:48 AM by -Enola- »
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August 19, 2017, 02:26:01 PM
Reply #544

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #544 on: August 19, 2017, 02:26:01 PM »
I got some ideas about that Gandalf, and another Gandalf that begun to worry me a bit. And about the role of the Flash-flames...


- Gandalf, Friend of Thorin: Agree, drawing cards is much more fun! But to use TMOMK as Delving, I'd prefer to exert Gandalf or "a companion" instead of adding doubts, which are much harder to remove. It's important to make the mechanism easy to pay once per turn, so it can provide good set up in the early sites (when its more needed). The prevention skill already limits a lot the drawing, by forcing you to keep 2 followers.

I believe the discard prevention shouldn't even force you to keep followers, to give total drawing freedom (the Rule of 4 is enough a limit). A way to do is to change the spotting of "2 Dwarf followers" to spotting, let's say, "5 Dwarves (except allies)" to include companions. Without followers, "5 Dwarves" + Bilbo + Gandy means 7 comps = no follower support + Marauder risk zone (plus other things which need 6 comps: Erebor, Dale, [Sauron] Bolg, Azog's Mace & Wicked Spider). The safe number begins with 2 Dwarf followers + 3 Dwarf comps. Perhaps "5 Dwarves" is too high (killing or discarding only 1 might wreak havoc, or even not drawing them soon enough during those 4 first sites), 4 might be better but not less I think.

Another reason to not rely on followers to keep Gandalf is the extreme power given to a well-timed (or abused) Yazneg (Fimbul can help in such task). Experienced players will see that weakness easily, and exploit it from the start. So my version'd be like this:

[1] •Gandalf, Friend of Thorin [Gandalf]
Companion • Wizard
Strength 7  Vitality 4
Wise.
The twilight cost of Thorin is -2.
While you can spot 4 Dwarves (except allies), Gandalf cannot be discarded.
Fellowship: Discard a Dwarf follower and exert a companion to draw 3 cards.
"Well, that's decided. It will be very good for you..."


- Gandalf, The Grey: I've been thinking about the ease of access to 3x of each Main Deck event in GEMP, and begun to fear this Gandalf will be overused there. With so many events he'll be by far the mightiest of all Gandalfs: his cost-free Powerful Guide skill outweighs by far the "discard at Mirkwood" problem (which will be easily countered by many ways, like playing Narya with his skill, using a favourable site 4 or 5, or packing many copies of AWINL or Radagast). The high doubt toll of his active skill will be countered by 3x He Gives Me Courage (which also trigger the wounding!), and by playing Glamdring soon.

Players will even try a choke trio of Bilbo-Thorin-Gandalf focusing his set up skill mainly on artifacts (with on-demand support of key companions, like Balin to recycle needed events or Dwalin before moving to site 9), and packing 3x of each important event to gain a brutal control over conditions, swarms, beatdown and corruption (and countering grind by playing expendable Dwarves each turn), with the nice side effect of wounding a minion costlessly per each [Gandalf] event.

So I'd add a cost to the wounding skill, something simple like "exert Gandalf" should do the trick (or perhaps "exert a Wizard" to give the [Gandalf] packs more spell power, especially the Wizard pack which requires Gandalf to exert A LOT).



- Flash-flames: Time ago we discussed about the problematic mechanism that wounds X times a minion, giving chances of killing Smaug with a simple gunpowder bomb. You said "the idea of this cards is also to counter Sauron." I still disagree, so made another card which should accomplish well the countering of Sauron's skill (amongst others whose main effect work at assignment, skirmish or regroup), and also fits well the flavor of the Balin pack:

[2] The War of the Dwarves and Orcs [Dwarven]
Event • Assignment
Wound X [Dwarven] characters to exert a minion X times. That minion's owner may exert a [Dwarven] character and if he or she does so, you may exert a minion; repeat this until a player does not exert a character.
"...at the memory of which the Orcs still shudder and the Dwarves weep."


An improved version of Death They Cried (this one lets you target a minion X times before the process may be stopped by a player). So lets you to counter Sauron or any bad guy, but being past maneuver/archery you won't kill it easily, being skirmish wounding the only way to do so (Iron Forged Weapon, Gandalf the Grey or Orcrist); still, the combo is very expensive if aims a minion with vitality 4 or 5, which should provide balance.

The cost might be different, perhaps "discard X [Dwarven] cards (except companions)" like Du Bekâr. But the idea is to show a large attrition effort from the [Dwarven] forces, directed first against a single bad guy ("...as they hunted for Azog in every den under mountain").


Tell me what you think about.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 04:56:07 PM by Durin's Heir »
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August 20, 2017, 10:29:23 AM
Reply #545

-Enola-

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #545 on: August 20, 2017, 10:29:23 AM »
- New Gandalf: The current version seems to be the best. The version with "exert Gandalf" was too easy to use. Your condition on the discard of Gandalf is also very easy to resolve. The FP player must have some TMOMK to be sure Gandalf will not be discarded at site 5.

- Gandalf, The Grey: We will see what we can do once the Hobbit Game will be on Gemp ;). The metagame could go in a way we didn't expect.

- The War of the Dwarves and Orcs: The card is too long for the draft. Try to make card with 3-4 card lines maximum.

What do you think about the current version of the Mirkwood Shadow? We will continue to test it tuesday. I need your advice.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 11:34:44 AM by -Enola- »
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August 21, 2017, 09:57:50 AM
Reply #546

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #546 on: August 21, 2017, 09:57:50 AM »
Given the urgency of the Mirkwood shadow, I'll post only about it by now, it'll be updated often. I'll post another one about the other topics, later.


- Mirkwood Shadow: Most things seem fine, but there's at least a thing I'd change drastically (Elven Jails). I believe the conditions will need some recovering tool (the Elvenking's protection may not be enough). This shadow should work well with the Aggressor to add pressure on Bilbo, and the unique Orcs of the Main deck: Narzug grinds and counters allies, Yazneg removes support and Fimbul brings them earlier.

- Ancient Grudge: :up: The general strength reduction seems much better here than in The Elvenking (non-unique so is stackable, and also brings some interesting gambling in case you need only +1 str).

- The Elvenking: :up: A protection and set up card, seems fine. Synergizes much better with Ancient Grudge. But I believe it should play the condition from "your draw deck or discard pile," since this shadow lacks any condition recover mechanism (and a strong pressure towards that will bring havoc).

If so, should play (but not protect) "a [Mirkwood] or [Gundabad] condition", to allow you to get back the backbone of your minion flooding: Hatred Rekindled. Borders of the Forest and Elf-Guards will work better. Keep in mind that with 4+ shadow conditions, Ancestral Knowledge won't target 2 [Mirkwood] conditions (but instead will aim The Elvenking + Hatred Rekindled/Not at Home, or simply 2 [Gundabad] conditions).


- Elven Jails: I dislike such an effect without any built-in counter. But it also seems very hard to trigger: to keep so much twilight and also an Orc alive, you'll need to play 1 or 2 "big" Orcs (but that's str 8 vit 3 max) and hope for Thorin, Glóin, Dwalin and Kili's pity or clumsiness (and lack of follower and spell support, and pumps if you play any yourself). By using poorly supported Beatdown mechanics (Orcs need to win AND keep lots of twilight), interferes with Elf-Guards and Borders of the Forest which rely better on swarm-like methods (those don't need either to win, or to keep twilight).

All in all, I'd prefer something during skirmishes with a prevention cost, like the original skill (but avoiding all that "if Bilbo is skirmishing" part which complicates things unnecessarily):

[2] Elven Jails [Mirkwood]
Condition • Support Area
When this condition is discarded, cards stacked here return to their owner's hand.
Skirmish: Discard an Orc skirmishing a Dwarf companion to stack that Dwarf here. That Dwarf (or Bilbo) may exert to prevent this.
"There is no escape from my magic doors..."

Should cost [2] or [3] to play (to not abuse the grind too early). Now uses a grind mechanism. Thus playing many weak Orcs will be good for this shadow, as they don't need to win (being Narzug a double or triple benefit!). Orkish Aggressor will work marvels with this, by keeping Bilbo's vitality busy.

If you think Bilbo's vitality will ruin it too easily, then it may be "that Dwarf may exert once (or Bilbo twice)..." Lorewise, it should be an "Orc (or Spider)" (and being Spiders strong, cheap and fierce should synergize); there's enough room.

Another card should make Orcs fierce, as it'll double the grind potential without any drawback: Orcs with enough strength/luck to win the 1st skirmsh may cause a 2nd wound or imprison a Dwarf if kept for a fierce skirmish, and those that'd be killed in the first wave will be easily be discarded as fuel. Borders of the Forest seems well for that task: "Each Orc at a forest is fierce."


- Elf Guards: I haven't spend much time on this, but the enhanced effect seems very perilous. I mean, with 2 Ancient Grudge stacking + an imprisoned Dwarf (+ perhaps a pump), you can easily add 6-8 doubts in a single site!


I'll try to talk more about Borders of the Forest and Elf Guards later. Perhaps one or the other should allow to replay discarded conditions (but at a high price, to avoid being OP), otherwise Sting and Ancestral Knowledge + Balin won't allow your conditions to stay for too long (Bilbo's Pack will provide a strong pressure on conditions, by making Bilbo win skirmishes, recovering key support with the Thrush, and acting directly against conditions and doubts with the Accorns)...
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 01:45:35 PM by Durin's Heir »
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August 21, 2017, 12:25:24 PM
Reply #547

-Enola-

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #547 on: August 21, 2017, 12:25:24 PM »
Thanks a lot for your answer. I dislike built-in counter in Elven Jails, it will slow down the game too much. have you another ability in mind? Staking only the weakest Dwarf seems to be a good idea, it avoids an easy stack of Thorin.
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August 21, 2017, 12:33:24 PM
Reply #548

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #548 on: August 21, 2017, 12:33:24 PM »
A built-in counter can slow down the game to some extent, but not so much if the decision is quick and easy (exert a Dwarf OR imprison him = exert all the way!). The shadow should work at some degree with grind, and non-exhausted Dwarves shouldn't be captured easily. Also Thorin is safe if not exhausted, or if doesn't fight, so the weaker companions should fall first.

The probelm of direct mechanisms without counter is that they must be very hard to pay/trigger. And this shadow has another problem: has no minions, so must resolve all with the max str 8 Orcs (or Smaug), which makes using surviving or winning minions too hard, moreover if ALSO uses a ton of twilight not invested in distracting the FP forces. Finally, it interferes with Borders of the Forest (which needs twilight AND minions) and Elf-Guards (which needs winning minions to then be discarded, so you need to play many in order to give better chances to win some fights).

So it's very hard to me, by now, to think about a mechanism WITHOUT a built-in counter...

Instead I propose an easy cost: discard an Orc, be it a weak loser or a magnificent  warrior. Then a relatively easy counter... but a price that stacks over and over. With vitality 3 Dwarves.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 12:43:24 PM by Durin's Heir »
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August 21, 2017, 12:41:47 PM
Reply #549

-Enola-

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #549 on: August 21, 2017, 12:41:47 PM »
The Mirkwood Shadow isn't a beatdown Shadow, it's a corruption Shadow. It will not deal a lot of wounds to Dwarves, the Jails will never be used as a tool for the Mirkwood Shadow... The built-in counter isn't good yet.

We need a clever way to stack Dwarves.
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August 21, 2017, 12:54:59 PM
Reply #550

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #550 on: August 21, 2017, 12:54:59 PM »
But uses (by now) some ill-supported Beatdown mechanics, to build its way towards Corruption.

Perhaps all that's needed is more exertion grind pressure on the Dwarves. Elf-Guards / Borders of the Forest might "discard an Orc and pay X other small cost" to exert a [Dwarven] companion. That way, the stronger Dwarves will be prevented from fighting (in presence of Elven Jails), and the weak ones will lose skirmishes much easily (triggering the current Elf-Guards), or be captured (which leads to the same).


Another possibility is this built-in counter: "The Free Peoples player may exert Bilbo or add a doubt" to prevent this. Either corruption or Bilbo-focused grind, no more dispersed grind. Then the Aggressor and Narzug will feast on the burglar. Perhaps something like this:

"Skirmish: Remove [1] and discard an Orc skirmishing a Dwarf companion to stack that Dwarf here. His owner may exert Bilbo or add a doubt to prevent this."

That way, most of the times "play an Orc + pay [1] = FP player exerts Bilbo OR adds a doubt" (until paying that exertion/doubt becomes so painful, that the [Dwarven] fighters will simply be surrendered). Except those Orcs fighting Bilbo (or Gandalf/allies), but Orkish Marauder will get you that exact same effect on Bilbo's skirmish. Weak Orcs destined to lose will be discarded by this skill for 1 "doubt/Bilbo-exertion/jailed-Dwarf", while those that happen to win their skirmishes will be discarded by (the current role of) Elf-Guards for 1 direct doubt. That seems a good corruption mechanism to me.

(Then allies/Gandalf will need to be covered by other [Mirkwood] condition, as Narzug will probably not be enough.)
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 01:39:49 PM by Durin's Heir »
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August 21, 2017, 02:35:06 PM
Reply #551

-Enola-

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #551 on: August 21, 2017, 02:35:06 PM »
I really don't want any built-in counter. I'll try to find something else.
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August 21, 2017, 09:39:13 PM
Reply #552

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #552 on: August 21, 2017, 09:39:13 PM »
- Elven Jails: My last proposal is much costlier and very aggressive, similar to Worry or twilight Nazzies (but not having to win skirmishes!). I believe it's good enough, but if you want to exclude built-in counters, then the skill might work with vitality instead of strength:

"Regroup: Discard X Orcs from play to make the Free Peoples player stack a [Dwarven] companion with vitality X here."

Has some similarities with [Sauron] Called Away. Since you don't need anymore to reserve twilight, you can play all the minions your hand and twilight let you (no more ill-supported Beatdown), and those who managed to survive (and probably made wounds meanwhile) will be your total fuel to imprison a Dwarf (or many!). Self-exhausting ones will be easier to pick (Glóin, Kili, Balin); the weakest Dwarves as you said, but in vitality. Give it a chance! ;)

EDIT: Playing 1x Orkish Aggressor should often grant you either 1 doubt at assignment, or 1 Orc at regroup to fuel this skill. Direct wounding can help Bilbo to kill it (Kili, Gandalf the Grey, Dawn Take You All...), but that wears away the FP resources. To make wounding much costlier you can play 2x Aggressors per site, in which case the doubt option's cost is doubled too.


- The Elvenking: You haven't said anything about playing conditions from discard. I'm a bit worried about anti-condition resources killing this Shadow too easily; Bilbo's Pack should be the worst match up: the Accorns, Sting + pumps, and Old Thrush getting [Dwarven] pumps or Ancestral Knowledge.


- Elf-Guards: As said before, the enhanced effect in brackets seems very OP to me, AND the Shadow hasn't yet a way to counter skirmishing allies... so I'd remove the "2 doubts" effect, and add instead an anti-ally text:

[1] •Elf-Guards [Mirkwood]
Condition • Support Area
Each time an ally is assigned to an Orc, that ally must exert or add a doubt.
Response: If a [Dwarven] companion loses a skirmish, discard an Orc from play to add a doubt (limit once per skirmish)
"Do not think I won't kill you, Dwarf!"

Exerting allies clears the path for Narzug to kill them (or to exhaust them, so only doubts can be added if allies insist in fighting). Since happens at assignment, the other skill of Elf-Guards can trigger Narzug a bit later. That other skill was turned into a response.

Edit reason: I'm trying to be clearer and briefen things a bit...
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 02:14:03 PM by Durin's Heir »
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September 06, 2017, 04:57:20 AM
Reply #553

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #553 on: September 06, 2017, 04:57:20 AM »
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September 06, 2017, 03:04:02 PM
Reply #554

Phallen Cassidy

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #554 on: September 06, 2017, 03:04:02 PM »
Can one of you explain Lavastone Giant to me? I couldn't find the conversation about making him reveal a card from the Free Peoples hand. After the Fellowship phase, one would expect most cards left in the Free Peoples player's hand to be shadow cards. It seems to me he should exert when he adds +2 to the archery total, not the other way around...