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Author Topic: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game  (Read 266518 times)

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December 02, 2017, 06:19:39 AM
Reply #615

-Enola-

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #615 on: December 02, 2017, 06:19:39 AM »
Thanks a lot Phallen, you're right. The game must work as it was done. R-list and X-list are our way to make it balanced in a constructed format.

I will only change one card: Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves not because he is unbalanced (he is well balanced), but only because he isn't liked by players. Moreover, Gandalf is the key character in a deck strategy and he is only in 2 copies (for 8 players) in printed cards, other cards could be up to 16 copies.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2017, 06:22:08 AM by -Enola- »
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February 23, 2018, 08:16:18 AM
Reply #616

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #616 on: February 23, 2018, 08:16:18 AM »
I see you want more [Gandalf] Skirmish events for Leader of Dwarves to use. That's great! I found 2 events in my vault of old ideas which might be worth of posting now... they'd fit thematically in the Travellers or Elrond packs.

This by no means implies that I abandoned my idea of him working with Fellowship or Skirmish events... there's only 1 [Gandalf] skirmish event in all the 8x currently available Supplementary Packs (and this move of yours might raise it only to 3x in 12 Packs), so those Packs cannot be a reliable source to increase the small amount of [Gandalf] skirmish events you'll have in the Draft. The randomness is too high if your base is 2 copies which can raise to max 6 (Skirmish only), but is much better if starts with 3 copies and can get up to 9 (with the addition of Fellowship). Still, here they go:


[1] No Finer Blade [Gandalf]     (Travellers Pack, preferrably)

Event • Skirmish
Choose one: make a Free Peoples character bearing an artifact weapon strength +3 and damage +1, or spot Gandalf to play a weapon from your draw deck or discard pile.
"Two caught their eyes particularly, because of their beautiful scabbards and jewelled hilts..."

An upgraded version of Dagger Strike for the Gondolin blades. But since that's totally useless when those weapons haven't arrived, it can allow you instead to get a weapon in the right time when it's needed (solving also the problem of losing Glamdring). With that wording ("Free Peoples character" bearing an "artifact weapon") it can pump Elrond when wielding Hadafang.


[2] Inner Light Revealed [Gandalf]     (Elrond Pack, preferrably)

Event • Skirmish
Spell.
Make a Wise character gain enduring. (For each wound on an enduring character, it is strength +2.) You may exert that character to make him or her damage +1.
"Before him stooped the old figure... bent, laden with years, but holding a power beyond the strength of kings."

Yes, enduring Gandalf! It always annoyed me that no single card ever gave him that keyword (but temporarily, of course!). I know it's a rule that came much later than FOTR block, but here is explained in italics between parentheses so new players shouldn't be confused (just like Goblin Marksman's archer).

The idea of using a loaded keyword in lieu of a more direct text (like "make Gandalf strength +2 for each wound on him") is that it's much easier to balance: non-numeric keywords cannot be stacked, so piling up ridiculous strengths with 2+ copies won't be possible; still, extra copies can stack the additional exertion (and damage +1). It can pump both Elrond and Gandalf, and synergizes with the cost of both Hadafang and Dawn Take You All.


Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 03:00:59 PM by Durin's Heir »
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February 26, 2018, 03:00:26 AM
Reply #617

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #617 on: February 26, 2018, 03:00:26 AM »
Good ideas!

The first one is very good. I simplify it a bit to make it easier to read:
- The "damage +1" is not necessary. A lot of Dwarves still have this ability, it will be too much.
- Only "companion", it's only for the weapons found in the Troll hoard.

[1] No Finer Blade [Gandalf]
Event • Skirmish
Choose one: make a companion bearing an artifact weapon strength +3; or spot Gandalf to play a weapon from your draw deck or discard pile.
"Two caught their eyes particularly, because of their beautiful scabbards and jewelled hilts..."


The second one is not in the Rivendell strategy :(. I don't think we need [Gandalf] skirmish events in this pack, and instead of which card?
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February 28, 2018, 09:58:39 AM
Reply #618

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #618 on: February 28, 2018, 09:58:39 AM »
The first one is very good. I simplify it a bit to make it easier to read:
- The "damage +1" is not necessary. A lot of Dwarves still have this ability, it will be too much.
- Only "companion", it's only for the weapons found in the Troll hoard.
I'm glad you liked it! Though not essential, those subtracted parts had some role to play:

- The damage +1 is meant for Bilbo and Gandalf, which have none otherwise. It'd give Bilbo more power to erase Gollum or the Aggressor, and thus double move more easily. You wanted ways to counter a dmg+1 Orc enheartened and assigned by Sauron, and while a suprise str +3 pump helps to defeat such Orc, it's often necessary some damage to erase it before the fierce assignment takes place. The only Dwarf target would be Thorin and I agree that damage +3 is a bit too much, but almost always will be worse than Battle Fury's strength +4.

- Including allies means only Elrond, and considering it was his grandmother Idril's weapon, Hadafang is a Gondolin blade too. ;) It'd create more interaction with the Rivendell pack (while the 2nd option will be playing weapons from the Blue Mountains, Dale, Thorin and Dain packs). If you want to shorten it, "Free Peoples character" can be cut to simply "character."


The second one is not in the Rivendell strategy :(. I don't think we need [Gandalf] skirmish events in this pack, and instead of which card?
You're right, there's no need of a [Gandalf] skirmish event, but would be useful anyway if we could get the room. Though I don't know yet what to remove. But frankly, the inner interactions of the Rivendell Pack don't convince me. Many redundant means, and little focus on what the Pack should be doing: help the Company, not overshadow it. I mean...

 - Moon Runes shouldn't play Site 3 allies, there's already AWINL and the new Site 3 for that (and lorewise that event should set up the [Dwarven] culture, not the [Elven]).
 - with Hadafang and Rivendell Scouts summoning the allies, there's no need of an event like Hold Ranks.
 - I neither like the choke effect of playing big, easy-to-summon fighting Allies at Maneuver phase; only the Dain Pack can do that to some extent, but Röac's skill is expensive to repeat and he's replacing AWINL (which can't play Dwarves).

The Pack heals and that's good (Lindir's passive skill + Vilya is a great combo) but feels like it's the 4th FP army with all that focus on fighting. It should heal, play sites, draw cards, perhaps remove some twilight or reduce a site's shadow number... subtle and secret manners, not an army in shinning coats. Except only if is about The White Council fighting Sauron, where an event like Inner Light Revealed might work well.


What can be removed then? I think Hold Ranks is the best candidate: its ally-summoning role can be done instead by Hadafang and Rivendell Scouts, and is also the weakest card in lore (a non-transcendent part, in the film only).

Moon Runes should play sites, perhaps reducing the Shadow number like Deft in their Movements, and perhaps heal or increase the move limit by spotting Elrond. Lindir + Vilya + Elrond means 2 wounds healed per turn, so I don't see the necessity of also playing each turn Lore of Imladris to remove 2 more (except only to trigger Vilya/Hadafang's strength reduction), so Lindir might absorb the [Elven] artifact playing, and leave then Moon Runes blank for a totally new text about the sitepath.


---------

I got another card that can help [Gandalf] skirmish events, though not a [Gandalf] event...

[1]Travelling Messenger [Gandalf]

Follower • Creature
Strength +1
Aid - Discard an event from hand.
Maneuver: Exert Gandalf and return this follower to your support area to take a [Gandalf] event into hand from draw deck or discard pile.
"We shall need your help, and the help of all things that will give it."

The Travellers Pack might need a follower, since lacks any permanent strength bonus or fighting ally (even worse than the Thráin Pack, which as 1 follower and 1 Ring). Followers cannot be killed, which is another advantage over an ally like Betsy Butterbur. She'll be either exhausted or too easy to kill by Narzug, so to use her safely you'll need to retain her in hand. She can be used only once per copy, while a (non-self discarding) follower can be used over and over, assuming you can pay the costs.

So this follower brings either a little bit of strength by discarding an event (FP or Shadow), or a [Gandalf] event by also exerting Gandalf. It's merely an alternative, I know you'll probably dislike it but if you find Besty is too weak for the job of supporting events, you got this option here.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2018, 10:58:12 AM by Durin's Heir »
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March 01, 2018, 08:47:59 AM
Reply #619

-Enola-

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #619 on: March 01, 2018, 08:47:59 AM »
No Finner Blade will keep the simplest form at the moment.

The current build of the Rivendell Pack is around new 1-cost maneuver events (to promote the Lore of Imladris), their effects are not determined. Only the concept is put on the table. Ideas for new effects?

Travelling Messenger is too good with The Grey.......    [-X [-X
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March 12, 2018, 06:03:33 AM
Reply #620

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #620 on: March 12, 2018, 06:03:33 AM »
Belated again, I've been very busy lately... :-S


No Finer Blade will keep the simplest form at the moment.
The damage +1 means only 3 short words. Let Elrond outside, but the damage for Bilbo and Gandalf is important (while will be redundant, thus harmless, in the case of Thorin).

The current build of the Rivendell Pack is around new 1-cost maneuver events (to promote the Lore of Imladris), their effects are not determined. Only the concept is put on the table. Ideas for new effects?
Alright, I'll work with the 1-cost events idea.

The effects must portray the 2 roles that Elrond plays in the story: #1 he's a wise and gentle counsellor, who offers aid for the travel (play sites, heal, reduce twilight, make skirmishes a bit easier to win); and #2 he's an ancient Noldor lord that, along with The White Council, drives the Necromancer out of Mirkwood (heal Gandalf, pump Wise characters, summon himself under specific circumstances or restrictive costs).

I believe most of the pack should focus on #1, since #2 is a subplot only. The Moon Runes are part of #1. So here's my version, based on Deft in Their Movements:

[1] Moon-letters [Elven]
Event • Fellowship or Maneuver
Spot Elrond and the site with highest number on the adventure path to play the site next to it and make each site's Shadow number -2 until the end of the turn. You may exert Thorin twice to make the move limit for this turn +1.
"This is ill news. Summer is passing. Durin's Day will soon be upon us."


The main failure of Deft In Their Movements is the scarce availability of sites to affect (snapshot rule). So to correct that this event plays the next site, not in respect of your own position in the sitepath (like Pathfinder), but in respect of the sitepath itself! And only then takes the snapshot. Thorin can exert twice to increase the move limit, because makes little sense to lower the twilight number of the next 3 or 4 sites if you'll move only once or at best twice.

So by playing it at Fellowship, per each copy you'll get -1 total twilight (-2 Shadow Number, + [1] for the event) in the 1st move and -2 more in the 2nd (as far as the Shadow numbers can still be lowered). You can shuffle it with Balin, and replay it with Lindir at Maneuver for a regroup move. I know you dislike events with multiple phases. But reducing many sites' Shadow numbers works better if can be played at Fellowship (before the 1st move), and your strategy forces it to be also a Maneuver event (otherwise would be Fellowship and Regroup).


Travelling Messenger is too good with The Grey.......    [-X [-X
Hmmm, you're right. It can be lowered, the idea is to have a follower alternative to Betsy. Another way of solving Betsy's weakness is to enhance her directly:

(0)Betsy Butterbur, Gentle Barmaid [Gandalf]
Ally • Home 1 • Man
Strength 1  Vitality 3
At the start of each of your turns, heal Betsy Butterbur.
Fellowship: Exert Betsy Butterbur twice to take a [Gandalf] or [Dwarven] event into hand from your discard pile.
"The Dragon of Erebor is on my mind, and I do not think that he will be forgotten by the grandson of Thrór."

Like the Master of Laketown, she'll bring help once every 2 turns. Also, if just played and not used yet (vit 3), she won't be easily killed by Narzug. I changed "Free Peoples event" to "[Gandalf] or [Dwarven] event" in order to exclude [Elven], [Shire] and potentially [Dale] events, which shouldn't be part of Thorin and Gandalf's chance meeting at Bree (Bilbo's and The Evil Becomes Stronger would be too powerful).


I'll try to work on a weaker version of Travelling Messanger, to have more options.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 06:23:32 AM by Durin's Heir »
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March 13, 2018, 04:15:17 PM
Reply #621

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #621 on: March 13, 2018, 04:15:17 PM »
[1] Moon-letters [Elven]
Event • Fellowship or Maneuver
Spot Elrond and the site with highest number on the adventure path to play the site next to it and make each site's Shadow number -2 until the end of the turn. You may exert Thorin twice to make the move limit for this turn +1.
"This is ill news. Summer is passing. Durin's Day will soon be upon us."

Unplayable, complicated and weak :(.


Betsy is only more complicated to avoid Narzug. She could be used directly after playing it, so there is no need to help her (she's powerful enough).
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March 13, 2018, 07:04:25 PM
Reply #622

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #622 on: March 13, 2018, 07:04:25 PM »
Unplayable, complicated and weak :(.
Hmm, not so weak really, but excessively complicated. What about this one?

[1] Moon-letters [Elven]
Event • Fellowship or Maneuver
Spot Elrond and a site to play the following site (replacing opponent's site if necessary). You may exert Thorin to make the twilight cost of each Shadow event and Shadow condition +1 for this turn.
"This is ill news. Summer is passing. Durin's Day will soon be upon us."

(EDIT: Reworded it, according to Dictionary's suggestion.)

Keeps the playing of sites, but now can also replace any site in play (except site 1 only), like Traveled Leader would do in pre-Shadows sites. The choke goal is still present, but now the DitM text is replaced by Dauntless Hunter's (and Thorin exerts only once). The move limit addition was removed to keep the gametext simpler and within 5 lines (but I still believe it's important for this Pack's flavor, perhaps in another card).

The Balin + Lindir synergy is kept: you can exert Thorin and Balin in fellowship to play it from hand and recycle it, and later replay at Maneuver with Lindir for +2 total twilight to any post-Shadow event in that site (annoying things like If He Losses, Goblin Song, Hidden...), and after moving in regroup the effect is extended to conditions and Shadow-phase events. Lindir can play Lore of Imladris to sweep 2 of those 3 wounds.


Betsy is only more complicated to avoid Narzug. She could be used directly after playing it, so there is no need to help her (she's powerful enough).
If you use the Prancing Pony to get her via AWINL (for [3]), you'll have only AWINL in discard and then she'll be easily killed by Narzug. Another use of that site is playing Elrond, but that's risky due to the total [7] it costs. The Prancing Pony's cost might be changed to "exert Gandalf" or "exert a [Gandalf] character" to reduce that risk to [5] only.

Maybe keep the original Betsy, with the sole addition of "Betsy Butterbur cannot take wounds"? I dislike keeping her in hand, 'cause means clogging it... since there's few permanent cards in the game (compared to LOTR TCG; there's not a single FP condition) and also the Travellers Pack provides few, a good card flow is always key.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 04:32:44 AM by Durin's Heir »
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March 14, 2018, 10:17:23 AM
Reply #623

Dictionary

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #623 on: March 14, 2018, 10:17:23 AM »
[1] Moon-letters [Elven]
Event • Fellowship or Maneuver
Spot Elrond and a site to play the site next to it (replacing opponent's site if necessary). You may exert Thorin to make the twilight cost of each Shadow event and Shadow condition +1 for this turn.
"This is ill news. Summer is passing. Durin's Day will soon be upon us."

Keeps the playing of sites, but now can also replace any site in play (except site 1 only)

I would argue that "site next to it" could mean in front or behind, but I take it that's not what you mean? If not, maybe something like: "Spot Elrond to spot a site. Play the following site (replacing opponent's site if necessary)." might be clearer?
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March 14, 2018, 01:44:34 PM
Reply #624

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #624 on: March 14, 2018, 01:44:34 PM »
I'm not a big fan of site manipulation :(, or FP playing denial.
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March 15, 2018, 04:28:13 AM
Reply #625

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #625 on: March 15, 2018, 04:28:13 AM »
If not, maybe something like: "Spot Elrond to spot a site. Play the following site (replacing opponent's site if necessary)." might be clearer?
Yes, that'd be much clearer. I wanted to avoid using "play the next site", as that exactly as Pathfinder except for the remotion of "fellowship's", and as such might confuse experienced players used to LOTR TCG's site manipulation (while new players wouldn't). Thanks, Dictionary! :up:

I'm not a big fan of site manipulation :(, or FP playing denial.
The twilight cost increase is the only simple way I see by the moment to provide a choke mechanism that can work well during Maneuver (too late for twilight remotion). And it must be strong enough to counter its own cost [1]. But don't confuse this event with Dauntless Hunter: each copy is half the infamous Elf's effect, and requires to be activated every turn by means of exertions (of Thorin, Balin and Lindir). That forces you to choose between choke and the easy mass healing that this Pack provides (Elrond + Lindir playing 2x LoI (recycled by Balin) = 3 total wounds healed per turn; add Vilya and Óin if necessary). The choke is important to portray Elrond's help to the Company (preparations and advice for the road), instead of strength pumps and direct skirmish intervention.

The site manipulation is already present in Thrór's Map and Watchful Orc. This event is only more versatile, but will never be a nightmare like the Expanded site manipulation tricks (due to fixed site numbers). It's a bit superfluous, so can be removed in benefit of more important things like a move limit increase (that's what Thrór's Map did in the story: they realized that if they moved fast enough, they'd have a secret entrance to fight Smaug with stealth instead of open war):

[1] Moon-letters [Elven]
Event • Fellowship or Maneuver
Spot Elrond to make the move limit for this turn +1 (to a maximum of 3)*. You may exert Thorin to make the twilight cost of each Shadow event and Shadow condition +1 for this turn.
"This is ill news. Summer is passing. Durin's Day will soon be upon us."

* The maximum is worded like Traitor's Voice, meant to prevent Lindir and Balin from abusing it.
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March 15, 2018, 04:58:59 AM
Reply #626

Phallen Cassidy

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #626 on: March 15, 2018, 04:58:59 AM »
What about taking a page from Some Who Resisted?

[1] Moon-letters [Elven]
Event • Fellowship or Maneuver
Spot Elrond to make the move limit for this turn +1 (to a maximum of 3)*. You may exert Thorin to make the twilight cost of each event and condition +1 for this turn.
"This is ill news. Summer is passing. Durin's Day will soon be upon us."

Obviously, "condition" vs "Shadow condition" simply saves space. This way, the FP can't deny a Shadow player twilight while still taking full advantage of his or her own events. It'll also offset the punishment of playing multiple copies, since each copy would add a little more to the twilight pool for the Shadow player than the one before it.

March 16, 2018, 06:55:42 AM
Reply #627

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #627 on: March 16, 2018, 06:55:42 AM »
I think this kind of event would be difficult to play. There are not so much double moves in the Hobbit game (so triple moves?), and I don't think players love playing against a choke strategy (as much as discard strategy) in LOTR TCG.
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March 23, 2018, 11:57:51 AM
Reply #628

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #628 on: March 23, 2018, 11:57:51 AM »
Update of the first post.
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April 06, 2018, 08:52:58 AM
Reply #629

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #629 on: April 06, 2018, 08:52:58 AM »
Last packs have now there images. :)

http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/LastPacks.html

Enjoy!
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