Isengard Men

[Dictionary]

I've always felt this culture was one of the least developed by Decipher, so here are some of my ideas. I felt like the theme of Men was debilitation and weakening the Fellowship with conditions. However, it's highly unreliable as most of the cards only target Free Peoples Men, and condition discard is rampant in the later formats. The following cards are Return of the King supplements, as one of them uses threats.

• An Already Troubled Mind,
Condition • Support Area
Each time you play an Man, add a threat. Each card that plays on a Free Peoples Man may be played on any companion (Except the Ring-Bearer).
"Late is the hour in which this conjurer chooses to appear. ‘Lathspell' I name him. Ill news is an ill guest.
Rare

• Such Malice,
Condition • Support Area
Grima is strength + 1 for each condition borne by a companion.
The Free Peoples player cannot reduce the strength of Men.
"He bared his teeth; and then with a hissing breath he spat before the king's feet"
Uncommon

• The Palantír of Orthanc, Lost Seeing Stone
Artifact • Support Area
To play, spot 2 Men.
No more than 2 conditions may be discarded by a Free Peoples effect. Each Free Peoples card that discards one or more conditions gains this cost: "wound a companion."
"They are not all accounted for, the lost seeing stones. We do not know who else may be watching."
Rare

• Théoden, Corrupted King
Minion • Man
Strength: 15
Vitality: 1
Site Number: 3
To play, if you can spot Théoden, return him, and all cards on him, to their owner's hands. At the start of the maneuver phase, you may spot another Man to make this minion Fierce, Damage + 1 and unable to take wounds until the end of the turn.
"Why should I welcome you, Gandalf Stormcrow?"
Rare

Rohirrim Spy,
Minion • Man
Strength: 5
Vitality: 2
Site Number: 3
To play, spot an Man. Shadow: Exert this minion to play an condition from your draw deck.
"'Trust not to secret ways,' said the king. 'Saruman has long spied out this land. Still in that place our defence may last long.'"
Uncommon

So these give us a counter to Gandalf's Mass condition discard, a counter to GLR (Play Leechcraft on her with An Already Troubled Mind in play) as well as free threats and a big tank who's immune to Glimpse of Fate and Forearmed (with Such Malice). What do you guys think? Too overpowered/underpowered?

EDIT: Rohirrim Spy updated.

[Not a Zombie]

I love the cards, minus theoden. He doesn't really have the flavor for me. When Saruman was controlling his mind, he wasn't a beating people up, and he was much weaker. I think he needs a more treacherous text and such, maybe something like:

• Théoden, Corrupted King
Minion • Man
Strength: 8
Vitality: 1
Site Number: 3
To play, if you can spot Théoden, return him, and all cards on him, to their owner's hands. While you can spot another man, each unique companion (except the ring bearer), and all free peoples cards they bear, is treated as though their text boxes were blank.
"Why should I welcome you, Gandalf Stormcrow?"
Rare

It shows how people under his leadership were immobilized or unable to act. Its a little text heavy, but you get the idea.

[ket_the_jet]

I'm on the same lines. I'd almost be interested in this:
 
•Theoden, Corrupted King
Minion • Man
Strength: 2
Vitality: 1
Site Number: 3
To play, spot Saruman.
When you play this minion, if you can spot Theoden, return him and all cards on him to their owner's hand. The Free People's player may exert Gandalf twice to prevent this.
"Why should I welcome you, Gandalf Stormcrow?"
Rare

Actually, I *really* like the sound of that.
-wtk

[ket_the_jet]

Might as well look at the other cards.

I don't know that Such Malice is particularly flavorful as well. All of the men who were disloyal to Theoden [seems like Grima was the only one actually kicked out of Rohan, by the way] were total wimps when getting beaten up by the three hunters. The more I read the remainder of the cards, I feel like they are a lot more along the lines of countering cards that are already severely overpowered like Lady Redeemed or, borderline, Glimpse of Fate.

What does the culture do well right now? Well, it does some pre-skirmish wounding with Rohirrim Traitor, it gets rid of possessions with Grima, Wormtongue and Where Has Grima Stowed It?, and it punishes multiculturalism with Agents of Orthanc and Grima, Chief Counselor. I think that rather than making them a viable punisher of a Shadow side [seeing as they weren't much of a threat to anyone save Theoden], you should look to make some of their cards more splashable so that they are a sometimes annoyance.

I don't think anyone would disagree that there is nothing more annoying than Grima, Wormtongue or Grima, Chief Counselor clogging up your hand.
-wtk

[Dictionary]

@Not a Zombie: I'm glad you like the cards I prefer your version of Theoden actually, I decided to make the one I posted unable to take wounds because the Free Peoples guys wouldn't want to kill him, and I gave him high stats because of the damage he could cause under Saruman's influence, but I do agree that a more subtle ability fits in better thematically, and I like the idea of his global weakening.

@Ket_The_Jet: Not so sure about this. Wouldn't he only be effective against Free Peoples Theoden? And he doesn't see very much play in Movie. Regarding your point about countering cards, I don't necessarily want to counter specific cards, but I feel like men need something to keep them relevant. I do see them as their own culture, look at all the cards released like Wounded, Leechcraft, Twisted Tales, Banished, Men Will Fall, Rohan is Mine! - None of these cards are splashable, but all of them involve weakening the Fellowship so much that, even though the men themselves are weak, so are the companions, which makes up for it.

Bear in mind that Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas took on hordes of uruks by themselves, so naturally they could easily defeat non-fighting men, even without weapons. Grima and Co. wanted to sow discord amongst the good guys, hence all the nasty conditions, but because they're limited to targeting men, they're mostly unusable. Take that away, and you don't even need a GLR counter, Leechcraft does it for you. However, a shadow that is so completely dependant on such conditions has to have a way to deal with Sleep, Caradhras or similar, otherwise it simply won't get used. And the counter to Glimpse of Fate/ Forearmed was for tank Theoden, so if we're make him more of a global weakener, it won't be needed. But I would expect Grima to be far bolder when the fellowship fights amongst itself, so why shouldn't he gain strength for each condition; The principle is very similar to Gollum, Stinker.

With regard to the splashing element, I've only ever seen Grima splashed, and that's only because his abilties aren't culturally enforced. Son of Galmod is actually the main one I use in a men deck, again, because of his condition synergy. But of the 4 Grimas, he is the only one that isn't splashed - which almost implies his ability is more culturally relevant than the others.

[Not a Zombie]

@Dictionary: I do like your thematic explanation. I've always had a soft spot for men

[ket_the_jet]

I've got to say, I don't think that there is much going on with the Men. At the worst, they are an inconvenience to Gandalf and the hunters on their quest and the only real threats are Saruman, who isn't a Man at all, and Grima, who feeds Theoden Saruman's lies and [allegedly] eats a Hobbit.

Some advance agents of Saruman start sowing seeds of discontent in the Shire, leading to his petty takeover. So if anything, I think the magic was directed at the world of Men and at the Hobbits. Saruman didn't have anything over the Elves and the Dwarven peoples weren't even in his radar.
-wtk

[Durin's Heir]

Cool cards! I'll post a detailed review to each, but later.

I always thought Iron Axe should be bearable by a or Man. Given their low base strength, a weapon would have been the natural solution, and Banner of Isengard is of course insufficient. Perhaps this might help:

Confiscated Sword
Possession • Hand Weapon
Strength +2
Bearer must be an Man.
While you can spot 3 Free Peoples cultures, bearer is damage +1.
Shadow: If stacked on an card, play this possession as if from hand.

The Shadow skill is there to give a new utility to Twisted Tales (and Library of Orthanc) by preserving your own weapons, specially after depleting all FP weapons.

But I would expect Grima to be far bolder when the fellowship fights amongst itself, so why shouldn't he gain strength for each condition; The principle is very similar to Gollum, Stinker.

If the goal of Such Malice is to make Grima stronger with the discordance amongst the Free Peoples, it should make Grima "strength +1 for each companion and ally bearing an condition". Otherwise he'd be a good fighter by only piling up 4x Desertion and 1x Weary on the same guy. And by spotting companions and not conditions, his strength will never be incoherently high.

Besides that, spells and Wizard Staff should still be able to reduce an Man's strength, for lore's sake.

•Such Malice
Condition • Support Area
Grima is strength +1 for each companion and ally bearing an condition.
Non- cards cannot reduce the strength of Men or Wizards or Wizards.

[Dictionary]

@Ket_The_Jet: You do make good points. But I'll carry on dreaming nonetheless

@Durin's Heir: I love the Confiscated Sword, I've always wondered why Twisted Tales could stack stuff but then never doing anything with it. I thought my wording for Such Malice would count every shadow card on every companion rather than the companion with the most conditions? How would you word it to achieve that effect? Regardless, I like your version better, as it gives even more incentive to spread the conditions out. Concerning the line, I like the inclusion of Saruman in the picture, but shouldn't it say wizard? Otherwise Gandalf's strength can't be reduced by the conditions, which gives another dynamic like Throne of Isengard being a double-edged sword. Or was that the whole point?

[Durin's Heir]

I'm glad you like the sword .

You are right, your wording with Such Malice counts every condition on a companion, regardless of who bears more. But my point is that you can pile up many conditions on the same guy, and actually Men conditions don't have a limit so you can pile up to 4x on the same guy (Desertion, Banished, Leechcraft, Rohan is Mine, Wounded; there's also Many Riddles if you pack some Uruk Trackers; those are 6*4 = up to 24 conditions!), and that isn't in the line of "promoting discordance amongst the fellowship". So my idea was to spread the conditions to reflect that discordance.

How would you word it to achieve that effect?

Perhaps something like this: "Grima is strength +X, while X is the highest number of conditions borne by the same companion". That wording might be useful for a condition or event to support him. Or to support any Man of Wizard.

Concerning the line, I like the inclusion of Saruman in the picture, but shouldn't it say wizard? Otherwise Gandalf's strength can't be reduced by the conditions, which gives another dynamic like Throne of Isengard being a double-edged sword. Or was that the whole point?

You are right, it should be " Wizard". Men Will Fall too wouldn't be able to reduce Gandhi's strength. No, that wasn't my intention. But Gandalf and the Ents should be able to counter Saruman, they were above the reach of his treachery. But the Throne of Isengard will still be a double-edged sword, as was meant to be from the beginning by Decipher itself.

I'd love to see some spell events portraying the Duel of Wizards at Orthanc. An event to reduce strength, called perhaps "telekinesis" or so, struggling with Gandalf's Servant of the Secret Fire...

• An Already Troubled Mind,
Condition • Support Area
Each time you play an Man, add a threat. Each card that plays on a Free Peoples Man may be played on any companion (Except the Ring-Bearer).
"Late is the hour in which this conjurer chooses to appear. ‘Lathspell' I name him. Ill news is an ill guest.
Rare

I like this condition. Men jumping into the wagon of threats! That will be very destructive given their exerting power. And the point of making conditions bearable by any race is pretty good, makes those otherwise meta-useless cards into factible tools to silence the annoying skills of Manager of Wizards, Lady Redeemed, Greenleaf... even Feared Axeman. But Ket is right when saying "Saruman didn't have anything over the Elves and the Dwarven peoples weren't even in his radar."

So to balance both things, I'd make Saruman strain a bit more to extend his arm towards the other races:

An Already Troubled Mind
Condition • Support Area
Shadow: Play an Man to add a threat.
Shadow: Remove 2 threats to play an card that plays on a Free Peoples Man on any companion instead (except an Ent or the Ring-bearer).

If the first part is changed from passive to active, you can make this a non-unique condition as the effect won't accumulate (and will be much shorter by the way, which saves 1 card line if you ever turn these DCs into card images). Being non-unique, you don't need to worry so much about being discarded.

The second skill was too powerful without a cost IMO. To remove 2 threats can correct that problem, and by the way give use to threats in the Men subculture (alternatively, an exertion might do). The exceptions are the Ringbearer as you stated, and Ents given their remoteness to the affairs of power and the troubles of other races (and later their aversion to the "Tree-Killer" blocks any influence on them). Besides, blocking the use of the Assignment ability of Unhasty Ents ("discard 2 cards or exert an UB Hobbit...") will destroy them too easily, and their only condition removal in Movie Block (Crack Into Rubble) is insufficient at most.

Don't know if Leechcraft should act on non-RB Sam, preventing him from taking the Ring if Frodo dies. In respect of RB companions, there are only 3 Hobbits, Smeagol and a lot of Men. Men are Decipher's original target. So in case you change "on any companion instead (except the Ringbearer)" to "on any unbound companion", that leaves only Smeagol and 3 Hobbits as Ringbound companions that won't bear those conditions by any means.

[Durin's Heir]

• The Palantír of Orthanc, Lost Seeing Stone
Artifact • Support Area
To play, spot 2 Men.
No more than 2 conditions may be discarded by a Free Peoples effect. Each Free Peoples card that discards one or more conditions gains this cost: "wound a companion."
"They are not all accounted for, the lost seeing stones. We do not know who else may be watching."
Rare

I like the inclusion of ways to protect conditions. Shadow conditions are easily wiped out after Towers Standard, and that reduces too much the viability of conditions that require time to work like Attack on Helm's Deep and Down to the Last Child. Also, almost each King Block site should be a battleground but Decipher didn't want us playing with card that we already had. Moreover, with Set 8 the power growth curve got totally disproportionate with cards like Siege Troop, Great Hill Troll, corsairs... All in all, Isengard got obsolete.

Thus, adding a mechanism to protect any condition (not only machines as Siege Engine) can righten Isengard's potential. But I don't think the Palantír of Orthanc should play that role. The Palantír was a device used to gain information, and that can be portrayed by means of drawing cards and revealing cards from hand or draw deck. Might increase the cost of FP events and conditions, add twilight, stack cards... But to protect conditions, I'd rather have some other condition involving Saruman's deception and illusions. Perhaps you like this one:

The Voice of Saruman
Condition • Support Area
Spell. To play, exert Saruman.
At the start of each turn, add for each Free Peoples culture you can spot.
Response: If an condition is about to be discarded by an opponent, remove or discard this condition to prevent that.
"Suddenly another voice spoke, low and melodious..."

This card is very powerful, so exerts Saruman as playing cost (which also makes the follower version can't trigger it). The only viable cards that add twilight are Tower of Orthanc and Isengard Scimitar* and most shadows use too much twilight, so a mechanism like this comes in handy. The depiction is quite obvious: Saruman causes dissension amongst the Free Peoples and delays them with his rhetoric. And the response action can harvest that twilight, and even protect itself.

* the rest are Isengard Axe, Hollowing of Isengard, Isengard Forger, and perhaps Urgency, Demands of the Sackville-Bagginses and The Misadventure of Mr. Underhill.

The Palantír has too much potential... I'd leave it for other purposes. Something for the whole culture, instead of a given subculture.

[Durin's Heir]

• Théoden, Corrupted King
Minion • Man
Strength: 15
Vitality: 1
Site Number: 3
To play, if you can spot Théoden, return him, and all cards on him, to their owner's hands. At the start of the maneuver phase, you may spot another Man to make this minion Fierce, Damage + 1 and unable to take wounds until the end of the turn.
"Why should I welcome you, Gandalf Stormcrow?"
Rare

I think this card is a bit too much. 15 strength, fierce, dmg +1 is much stronger than any version of Saruman himsef. Or Lurtz, oh my! As Not a Zombie said, he wasn't beating his people. But I like the inclusion of Théoden as a corrupted minion. So please allow me to propose you this version:

•Théoden Deceived, Under Saruman's Spell
Minion • Man
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Site Number: 3
Saruman and Men are strength +1 and may not take wounds in the archery phase.
Skirmish: Exert Théoden Deceived or Grima to cancel a skirmish involving an Man or Wizard.
"Why should I welcome you, Gandalf Stormcrow?"

To protect your Wizards and Men. That's all. At first stance was designed to portect Son of Galmod and make him viable. This one can coexist with a Théoden on the board, the same way as Radagast and Radagast Deceived.

If Grima Son of Galmod is under the cross-hairs of the FP player's main tank to remove that annoying -1 strength, well, exert this Théoden (or Grima himself) to cancel his skirmish. Also Greenleaf won't touch him. Same with Unferth, your main exerting engine, whose presence in possible fierce skirmishes or after a double move will be crucial. And Saruman... Besides, everyone will skirmish much better with a general +1 strength bonus.

If a companion falls before Saruman's agents, threats provided by An Already Troubled Mind will trigger. So you won't need to have a single tank minion to kill the FP player's tank fighter, you will only need to exhaust them (with Unferth). And assault each weak flank in his/her fellowship, until somebody dies . And Saruman (preferably SotE) + his Staff can make that first kill much easier.

What do you think?

[Dictionary]

Thanks so much for the detailed feedback Regarding the first post, I agree with you on all points, except I'm a little undecided about the ents. In the book, didn't Treebeard eventually let Saruman go, which is how he started wreaking havoc in the Shire? That would mean that Saruman at least, could still affect the ents with his voice. You make a good point with Unhasty though, although if they have Gandalf they'll probably be alright. Don't forget they have BoT too, you reminded me of that on my WraithEnts deck. Don't know about Sam either, but I kinda like the idea of immobilising him, reminds me of Helpless. But it's true that hobbits also lack condition discard. 2 threats is a good cost, I prefer it to an exertion because a lot of men conditions require exertions already.

You make a great point about the Palantir, I chose it because Artifacts are so hard to discard, and I don't really see it played much except to annoy the opponent, but your condition works better. Should it be unique though? Because otherwise you will generate a ton of twilight with a self-protecting condition. I agree making it only for men was too strict as well, I'm a bit paranoid about creating splash cards after Decipher's Enquea and Grimas (I dislike such cards thematically).

I love the reference to the deceived wizards here, and I think this is another really cool card. This minion would cripple double moving, as he shields pretty much all your men when played. But maneuver wounding could still take care of him, so I don't he's unbalanced. You just reminded me with the use of that Deceived word: Such Malice's:  "Non- Gandalf cards cannot reduce the strength of Men or Wizards." - I hadn't realised that this would protect Deceived Wizards from overwhelm killing too, which is another nice addition.

[Durin's Heir]

It's been a good while, sorry for this delay .

Treebeard was affected by Saruman's voice, but not by Saruman's men. A line saying "Characters bearing cards lose unhasty" can solve this point. Yes, I forgot about BoT, but anyway it's best trigger is the assignment ability of Ents, thus Leechcraft would block most of BoT's usefulness. Also, Isen Men play a ton of conditions so it's not a match for them, and the FP player can't choose what card will be discarded. Therefore, either Ents shouldn't bear those cards, or a short line like the above mentioned should be added.
About Sam, he accompanies Frodo to Mordor and doesn't get close to Isengard/Rohan, that's why I think it's not lore-consistent to target also Ring-bound comps. Faramir & Co are men so they don't need An Already Troubled Mind to bear those conditions. It's your decision anyway, I just offer my point of view but don't want to push you .

2 threats = play 2 men with An Already Troubled Mind. An exertion is a good cost too, allows you to play more conditions with few men but exposes them to maneuver and archery wounds. Théoden Deceived helps in archery though.

Théoden Deceived can be countered also by Regroup discarding (Task Was Not Done, Gil-Galad EHK, Ever the Hope of Men...) or Regroup wounding for a double move. Yes, Such Malice prevents Deceived Wizards from being killed by Forearmed. A simple Elf, even a strong Noldorin of the First Age shouldn't be able to easily defeat a Maia in a fight.


About The Voice Of Saruman, that card is an expensive investment: you need or to play Saruman + Voice (or more if Saruman is roaming or Legolas DH is present); then it starts adding twilight. It's absolutely NOT splashable, and is somewhat difficult to play 2 or more at once. It's OK to change it to unique, but then should cost ; then must be playable at the very start, at the late game the twilight addition is totally useless.

I'd like to see a Palantír of Orthanc of your craft, for the whole culture .


The only card I've not yet reviewed is Rohirrim Spy. I like it! Not splashable and allows you to play the right condition at the right moment. But IMO shouldn't play artifacts, only conditions and perhaps Saruman too. There's a book quote I found that might match this nice card:
"'Trust not to secret ways,' said the king. 'Saruman has long spied out this land. Still in that place our defence may last long.'"

I've been working on some cards for Wizards. I'll try to post them in the following days, perhaps you like them.

[Dictionary]

I like that line about unhasty, since it will in a certain way make ents stronger initially, representing their resilience, and forcing the shadow player to be more strategic. I think I had missed the 2 twilight cost with Voice of Saruman, it does sound quite tricky to get multiples out bearing that in mind. But even then, 2 or 3 culture fellowships will suffer against multiple copies of this, particularly if you have other stuff to take advantage of the extra twilight (Uruk-hai Rampage). And it could be splashed with a splashed Saruman, I don't generally find 2-card combos that difficult to draw (Although Saruman himself wouldn't be doing much, so perhaps it's not worth it.) If it were unique with cost 0, the Spy could help play it from deck, but of course you'd still need Saruman himself. So I'm kinda torn between the two options

I'll have to give it some thought, capturing the concept of the Palantir is hard, and I'm not a fan of either one of Decipher's palantirs.

That is a very nice quote for the Spy, I'll add it to the original

I'd love to see some stuff for wizards, I found the concept of the Deceived Wizards very interesting