Isengard Men

[ket_the_jet]

• The Palantir of Orthanc, Stone of Power
Shadow: Play Saruman and reveal X cards from hand to reveal X cards from the Free People player's hand. You may exert Saruman twice to discard one card revealed.

Cheers,
-wtk

[Dictionary]

Sorry for the long delay on this thread. I do like Ket_the_Jet's Palantir, it captures quite well the theme of Decipher's Palantirs - manipulating the Free Peoples Player's hand. I've recently been trying to think of something unorthodox for the Palantir, what about the following?

(•)The Palantir of Orthanc, Lost Seeing Stone
Artifact
Plays to your support area.
Shadow: Spot Saruman to transfer this artifact to him.
Each time Saruman loses a skirmish, you may transfer this artifact from Saruman to a character he is skirmishing.
While bearer is Saruman, he is Vitality + 1. While bearer is any other character, he or she is Strength - 2 and Vitality - 1
Rare

So the theme here is the fact that Saruman lost possession of the Palantir when defeated (i.e the companions got it), but being a dangerous artifact, it has a debilitating effect on whoever bears it. I considered making some characters such as Aragorn immune to its effects, but I fear it would weaken the card too much.

Mechanically speaking, the Palantir is useful for Saruman users because the only way to avoid it is to lose to a Saruman bearing a staff, which can be damaging for a Free Peoples. On the other hand, it helps make up for the fact that Saruman will almost certainly lose to characters like Durin III, Cirdan etc. in Movie Block, but with this card on the table, it makes up for it a bit. It's also hard to get rid of, being an artifact, but also unique, so only one companion would get this affliction. The extra hitpoint could also help Servant of the Eye (Or any Saruman) with his exert-to-trigger ability.

[ket_the_jet]

I like the idea of a Palantir that is borne by a character, though I don't necessarily like the idea of it altering vitality or being moved around to companions [after all, Saruman wasn't giving the Palantir away].

That said, and this is sloppy, what about this thought?

To play, spot a Wizard. Plays to your support area.
Response: If a skirmish event is played, exert a character with 5 or more vitality (except the Ring-bearer) twice to cancel that effect.

I don't know if that covers a card that both sides can play the response to or if 5 vitality is too much, but the idea is that Saruman and his staff, Gandalf with his staff or ring, or Aragorn with Anduril can harness the Palantir to 'foresee' an event before it happens.

Feel free to edit thought to make it work, if you like it.
-wtk

[Dictionary]

I do like that idea, although I'm not sure if it should work with vitality, since some versions of Trolls (Or Shelob) could use it to cancel events. Maybe I'm overcomplicating it, but:

•The Palantir of Orthanc, Lost Seeing Stone
Artifact
Plays to your support area.
Response: If a Free Peoples skirmish event is played, any shadow player may exert their Wizard or Maia twice to cancel that effect (Or make their wizard strength - 2 until the Regroup phase if it is also a condition).
Response: If a Shadow skirmish event is played, the Free Peoples player may exert their Wizard (Or an unbound companion with resistance 8 or more) twice to cancel that effect.
Rare

This works off Sauron, Saruman and Deceived Wizards for the Shadow player(S), and high resistance guys (Or Gandalf/Radagast) for the Free Peoples player. By its wording, the Gandalf RB can also cancel events. What do you think?

EDIT: Realised that this is meant to be a Movie Block card, so I guess that makes my version kinda irrelevant...

[Durin's Heir]

My first post in a long time... I've been very busy and tired lately .

I like Ket's first Palantir. It's cool for the flavor to reveal X own cards and X opponent's cards; discarding is even better. Messing with the moves of the Free Peoples was one of the main uses Saruman gave to the Orthanc-stone.

But the others don't convince me really. The transferrable one has the problem that Saruman didn't want to lose it by any means, even less to Gandalf (Grima got a chilling scold for that strumble). The "2-edged, event-cancelling" stone has a cool idea, but lacks a proper form and flavor; I'd try with something like this:

•The Palantír of Orthanc, Stolen Heirloom
Artifact • Palantír
Plays to your support area.
Each time a non-stealth event is played, you may spot an Wizard to add .
Aragorn, Denethor and each Wizard gain this ability:
"Response: If a skirmish event is played, exert this character twice to cancel it."

Wizards = Gandalf, Radagast and Saruman. Aragorn and Denethor were rightful users of the Gondorian stones (as heirs of Anarion's authority; that's stated in the Unfinished Tales). Sauron shouldn't use that particular stone but only the Ithil Stone (and some cards might play with the "palantir" item class/unloaded keyword, with tricks like "spot X palantíri to add and X threats" or so).

That leaves a total of 4 FP fellows and a single bad guy. But companions must beware of exertions, while minions don't care too much about that (and minion versions of the 3 Deceived Wizards can be created; I made 1 of each and will try to post soon ).

Hope you like it.

[Durin's Heir]

Here I post the first Deceived Wizard minion, Radagast Deceived:

•Radagast Deceived, Naive Messenger
Minion • Wizard
Strength: 8
Vitality: 4
Site Number: 3
To play, spot a Wizard or discard an condition.
Each character skirmishing an Wizard loses all strength bonuses from weapons.
Assignment: Heal an unbound companion to make the Free Peoples player assign him or her to an Wizard or add 2 threats.

This minion shares the same card title as the condition, so you can't have both on the board. But the playing cost allows you to discard the condition version (if you have it in play) just before playing this minion, just like Recovered Seeing Stone does with The Palantir of Orthanc. Alatar Deceived and Pallando Deceived will share this playing cost trick.


The twilight cost and the site number are very low, but don't forget about the "to play" cost; he simply can't be splashed. His strength is a bit low, but the Throne of Isengard (and Staff of Saruman) corrects that, and having an additional Wizard to play tricks can be extremely useful.

The assignment skill heals ("assists") an unbound companion to mislead him/her towards an evil Wizard; the FP player may add 2 threats instead ("ignoring the urgency of the call", until it cannot simply be ignored). Healing someone to assign him/her can seem counterproductive, but with the Throne of Isengard in play the damage bonus will compensate that. And forcing a strong defender of your choice to fight a Wizard will clear the path for any other minion, let's say Sauron or The Balrog, to be confronted by smaller defenders. Cirdan? Gandalf's Staff? Eowyn LoI? Mablung?...

The passive sentence is there mainly to represent companions going unarmed towards what they think is a friend and counsellor. That gives better chances of winning those direct-assigned skirmishes, with or without the Throne.


I added no lore text because there's no room for it, if this "text card" is ever turned into a "graphical card" (the usual 7 lines of Decipher's cards are already saturated). That's a "bad habit" I got when working with Enola in his Hobbit Draft Game... but I think it's much better that way: too long texts lose a lot of flavor and strategic appeal; years ago, a guy in this forum said "simplicity is sexy" and I have to agree.

Again, hope you like it.

[Dictionary]

I really love the Radagast Deceived, good job! I think the theme and abilities are perfect, and I think that even on his own he adds a lot of new flavour and strategy to Wizard decks. After all, Radagast Deceived (The condition) is by far the least useful of the 3 condition wizards, requring first an exertion/wound on Saruman and then a heal (Unless the Free Peoples player has Wizards), and even then will generally do less damage than Pallando and Alatar. The fact that he needs a heal forces most players to use Agent of the Dark Lord and Defensive Rush, which is the best healing combo I know for Saruman (If you know any other good ones, please let me know )

I must say that I'd be tempted to use your version of Radagast all the time, as combining him with the Throne gives him good stats and he serves as another trigger for the other two condition wizards (Although I haven't seen their minion versions yet), although some expendable conditions would be needed. I like that he encourages the player to use a Saruman (Such as Of Many Colours) by ignoring weapon bonuses for wizards, as my usual issue with Of Many Colours is too little strength. I also think he opens up options for other versions of Saruman, such as Coldly Still, who would no longer need to worry about healing.

Also, regarding the "to play, spot a wizard" - so he can spot Gandalf or FP Radagast right? I like that this fits into the theme of spotting wizards on both sides, but I would of thought it might make him a little splashable, since many decks have either Gandalf or often a splashed Radagast for movement. Dunno if that would really be a problem though, since he's not that strong without the throne, and if the throne is played, it would benefit those wizards too.

All in all, great idea! I find it hard to judge whether or not it's overpowered just by looking at it, but as far as I can tell he seems okay. I like the Palantir too, it helps Saruman's Power in particular, as well as other expensive events. It also helps the shadow player to dodge Free Peoples skirmish events whilst not actually putting any shadow skirmish events in his own deck

[Floydos]

According to that discussion about  Thédoen my opinion is:

  •Théoden decieved, Saruman´s Puppet 
Minion • Man
Strenght: 6
Vitality: 2
Site number: 3
Théoden cannot be assigned to the skirmishes by any player.
To play spot  Saruman or  Grima.
Skirmish: Exert Théoden decieved to cancel all gametext of the  man untill the regroup phase.

  Grima´s whispering 
Event
Shadow: Spot  Saruman to cancel the first sentence of the Théoden decieved, Théoden decieved gain str +2 and fierce untill the regroup phase.

  Old and Tired 
Condition
To play spot a  man, plays on the FP Théoden
Each time is FP possession played on the Théoden, you may play  Saruman from discard pile to cancel that. Discard this condition.
FP may exert Gandalf twice to cancel that.

[Durin's Heir]

- @Dictionary: My friend, your response was very nice, I'm sorry to answer so lately. When developing a DC my idea is always to fit the lore first, then fit the current format rules and keywords, then try to innovate the gameplay.

Negating strength from weapons will render weak many tank guys (like Elendil), while making others much easier to defeat (like Éomer or Gimli). The assignment skill can replace Saruman SotE (so you can use another Saruman), or even synergize with it to assure a specific unbound guy will face your wizard's malice. Combined with strength reduction (Men Will Fall), Of Many Colours will have better chances not only to survive but also to kill companions with one strike. It has counters however: The Voice of Saruman will now protect the Deceived Wizard conditions, which then will stay on the board unlike the minion versions.

You guessed right, these Deceived Wizard minions will often require conditions to discard (although this Radagast can spot a good wizard). So they will force you to pack expendable conditions, the best of them being Saruman's Ambition (costs , no spotting requirements and cheapens your events). That seems like a disadvantage, but looks are deceiving: the minion Alatar and Pallando will orbit around that card! I'll try to post them soon, they work by replaying and discarding events and conditions...

About the Palantír, it helps also with event heavy decks. ARfM and other shadow phase events will be adding twilight to play more minions/tricks, while the twilight made by events of other phases (yours or not) will serve other purposes (like Uruk-Hai Rampage). I'll post some shadow phase events to help the evil Wizards, so the Palantír will get more importance than what seems to have.


- @Floydos's additions are very good, regardless of his recurrent miswritings (but this is not the Oxford English Dictionary fanpage ). Those cards look great as counters to a specific culture, the way Decipher designed Curse From Mordor, Memory of Many Things or Goblin Warrior. That can be changed to be more general... or not. Specific counters work well to balance the meta. If the idea is to make them more general, I'd do this:

Grima's Whispering 
Event • Shadow
Spot Saruman or Grima to make an Man strength +2 and fierce (and you may cancel the first sentence of his game text if is Théoden Deceived) until the regroup phase.

A generic but predictable pump for Men, which also unleashes Théoden Deceived if he's the target. As said before, being a shadow phase event allows the Palantír to add twilight .

Old and Tired 
Condition
Strength -1
To play, exert an Man. Plays on a Free Peoples man.
Response: If a possession is played on bearer, play a Wizard from your discard pile (and discard that possession if bearer is Théoden); Gandalf may exert twice instead. Discard this condition.

For anyone but works better on Théoden (An Already Troubled Mind can play this on any unbound companion, so only a FP man is a mere formality). Also reduces 1 strength now. Cost raised to and an exertion to prevent stacking many copies at once on the same companion.


Saruman's Puppet should have a higher vitality, and a line to protect men from archery (but different from the first line that prevents him from figthing). But seems very nice anyways. I'd change the skirmish skill to negate the text of any FP man, an non- men might exert to prevent that.

•Théoden Deceived, Saruman's Puppet 
Minion • Man
Strenght: 6
Vitality: 3
Site number: 3
To play spot Saruman or Grima.
Théoden cannot be assigned to skirmishes by any player.
Men cannot take archery wounds.
Skirmish: Exert Théoden Deceived to cancel all gametext of a man until the regroup phase. That man can exert (if isn't man) to prevent that.

So we would have 2 different versions of Théoden Deceived.

[Durin's Heir]

I'll post 3 cards before posting the other Deceived Wizards.

With all the dependance on conditions and artifacts, this new Saruman subcultures (Wizards and Men) will need cards to fetch the key cards from the start. Those should be Saruman-related cards of course. So here I post 1 new version of Saruman to get your support cards, and 2 events to get Saruman ASAP (the way Gollum does):

•Saruman, Master of Ring-lore
Minion • Wizard
Strength: 8 7
Vitality: 4
Site Number: 3
Saruman is strength +1 for each artifact you can spot (limit +4 +5).
Shadow: Exert Saruman to play an condition or artifact from your draw deck.
"'His knowledge is deep... The lore of the Elven-rings, great and small, is his province. He has long studied it, seeking the lost secrets of their making.'"

This Saruman allows you to pull your conditions and artifacts. His cost is higher, but the Site Number compensates it a bit (the library of Rivendell is at site 3, right? ). And gets stronger with each artifact (FP or Shadow, he studied both!), which is something to consider. Now, his main fighting tricks are artifacts, so with only Saruman's Staff + Throne of Isengard and no other artifact he'll be strength 15 dmg+2 fierce (but that requires a good lot of twilight).

Obviously this is made to play The Voice of Saruman, as many copies as you can, and the Palantír at site 2 (with those you start harvesting twilight). And if possible, the Throne too.


Only A Change Of Means
Event • Shadow
Play Saruman from your draw deck or discard pile and spot X up to 3 threats and burdens to take X the same number of cards from your discard pile into your hand.
"'We can keep our thoughts in our hearts, deploring maybe evils done by the way, but approving the high and ultimate purpose: Knowledge, Rule, Order.'"

This is meant to: 1) allow you to build Saruman-centered decks by making him present at every site (like Captured By The Ring or We Must Have It), 2) retrieve discarded cards so you can strike again (Cruel Caradhras? Men Will Fall? Decevide Wizard minions?) or rebuild your strategy. It spots threats and burdens ("Gandalf's worry and concern" while imprisoned) to get those cards back, so you'll need a way to get threats/burdens to maximize its effect. Worry and Cruel Caradhras will get you burdens, while An Already Troubled Mind or Radagast Deceived (the minion) will get you easy threats.

With a way of pulling Saruman in each site, you can pack different versions of Saruman to use the one that suits better the circumstances (as Gollum players do). So you'll pack (4x of this event and) 1x Master of Ring-lore to play him at the start and set up your key conditions and artifacts, and later you can pull another version depending on your needs. Please note that it requires to play Saruman and not to spot him (like So Polite), that prevents loops in the same Shadow phase.


Deep In Their Counsels
Event • Shadow
Spot Saruman (or play from him your draw deck or discard pile) to reveal the Free Peoples player's hand. Add or draw a card for each Free Peoples card revealed. Add or draw 2 cards if you reveal a Free Peoples card.
"Galdor of the Havens, who sat near by, overheard him. 'You speak for me also... What of Saruman? He is learned in the lore of the Rings, yet he is not among us...'"

The counterpart of Treachery Deeper Than You Know, another event to play Saruman but this one is meant to add twilight or draw cards while looking at the FP player's plans. With the Palantír of Orthanc, you'll add each time you play any of these events (and Saruman's Ambition will make them cheaper). Twilight has always been the worst issue regarding Isengard.


These 3 (+ Palantír and Voice) should provide a strong base on which build the rest of the subculture...

[Floydos]

@Durin: Yes. I have problems with the correct wording :-) If you want, I can create "cards".

Btw.: Can you be that nice and check and correct wording in my topic "expanded Southron strategies", please? I would be very grateful.

Abaddon

[Dictionary]

@Durin's Heir: Better late than never! I'm happy to see more of your ideas for the culture.

I like Master of Ring-Lore. I know the cost is already one higher, but I wonder if his base strength should be one less, similar to Friend of the Shirefolk? He'll still have much higher strength than average in the long run, especially since a) he can spot Free Peoples artifacts and b) artifacts are very hard to discard. The limit of 4 is cool too, as there are exactly 4 artifacts (Throne, Palantir, Staff, Library). That said, I might be tempted to splash Throne of the Dark Lord if I weren't relying on staffs.

I'm hazy about Only a Change of Means, it looks like it could be too powerful. After all, getting a few burdens and threats out is not very difficult (Players could just splash Eternally Threatening) so this card could be retrieving anything from 2 to 8 cards to the Shadow Player's hand. Maybe a limit would help with this? Or maybe it could be for each 2 threats and/or burdens? I like that it plays Saruman too, and that it can retrieve his staff, which adds value to the earlier versions of him.

Deep in their Counsels is cool, again I feel like a limit might be needed, otherwise a player could grab all 4 copies of this event per one copy of Only a Change of Means (Which can recycle other copies of itself) and then draw potentially a dozen or so cards against a player holding a few Free Peoples events.

To conclude, I really like the cards I'd say I'm most worried about Only a Change of Means, because discard recycling is where most of Expanded's borderline loops occur (Goblin Hordes, Beorning Axe). What do you think?

I also like Floydos' additions. I think that thematically they work well, and I believe the suggestions by Durin's Heir increase their versatility.

[Durin's Heir]

- @Floydos: Sure! I'll be working on that. But please have some patience, I've been really busy and will have little time in the coming days. Your card images and new tactics look very nice!



- @Dictionary: Really thanks for your kind support ! Those were gathering dust duting months, just didn't have the time or mood to post them. There's more to come.

You are right about Only a Change of Means and Deep in their Counsels. The first was meant mainly to allow his staff to aid him anytime... I think it will need a limit around 3 (to be akin ARfM); threats depend on your opponent's fellowship (Solo Smeagol ), and can be removed somewhat easily (Hearts Raised or Thrarin DS), so depending on 2 threats/burdens to recover a single card can be really crippling. Another detail about Only a Change of Means is that it triggers Betrayal of Isengard (just like ARfM), so card recovering has a natural lore-consistent enemy.

"Play Saruman from your draw deck or discard pile and spot up to 3 threats and burdens to take the same number of cards from your discard pile into hand."

Deep in their Counsels requires Saruman, which means 3 to 5 twilight (+2 if roaming). I agree that it needs a limit, but recovering his own twilight cost seems fair (and the change above limits this card's potential too). The new Palantír can add twilight too, so I fix the number of cards drawn or twilight added to 2, if you spot a Free Peoples card:

"Spot Saruman (or play from him your draw deck or discard pile) to reveal the Free Peoples player's hand. Add or draw 2 cards if you reveal a Free Peoples card."


I like your suggestion about Master of Ring-lore, he can be strength 7 but then the limit would be +5 strength. Besides, there's another artifact he will use... what's the point of spending so many ages in Ring-lore study, if you cannot forge your own Ring?

•Saruman's Ring, Carefully Crafted
Artifact • Ring
Vitality +1
Plays on Saruman. He is lurker and fierce.
Maneuver or Skirmish: Remove or a threat to heal an minion.
Shadow: Exert your Wizard twice to add a threat or add an token on a condition.
"'But I rode to the foot of Orthanc, and came to the stair of Saruman... He wore a ring on his finger.'"

So you can exert Saruman 4 times to control a site with Down To The Last Child (without packing any Uruk). Or add threats to use with Only a Change of Means (at the early game, you fetch 1st Master of Ring-lore, play from deck this Ring and Staff, add threats and then Only a Change of Means will be recovering those tools with any version of Saruman you feel like playing ).

The healing skill recycles Uruk Shaman's, but is wider as it helps any minion like Grima or a self-exhausted Saruman SotE, works also at skirmish, and can rely on threats besides twilight. As you will certainly notice, healing at maneuver helps to trigger the Radagast Deceived condition before the assignment phase, and makes triggering Pallando Deceived much less costly .

Berserk Slayer et al will have more tokens and better healing to tear defenders apart. Warg-riders too will have healing, to keep Foul Horde's damage +1 going, and the skirmish-ability cancelling too (with the new Palantír stopping their events)...

[Floydos]

Oh, I just got an idea. To represent capturing Gandalf during his arriving into the Isengard by Saruman I got an idea about a card:

  •Orthank prison 
Condition
To play spot Saruman.
Plays to support area.
Each time Free peoples player plays a event that require spot Gandalf, you may exert Saruman to stack that event here (limit 1 card). Each time Free peoples player will play copy of event stacked here, he must exert Gandalf to play it.

Or
Each free peoples plays event that requires to spot a Gandalf you may exert a Gandalf.

[Dictionary]

@Durin's Heir: You make good points. I like the revised versions of the cards

Saruman's Ring is a great idea! Carefully Crafted is a fitting subtitle too. Considering the number of Rings done by Decipher, I find it strange that they missed that one, as it may well have had some lesser powers to aid its bearer (Although I'm speculating a bit there).

Despite being a card, I'm intrigued by the ability to give any Saruman Lurker. I'm sure that must open up some good combos, particularly for Coldly Still, as it lets him benefit from cards like Armored Easterling and prevents the Free Peoples player from killing him immediately. Curunir would also benefit, as he's quite weak without Lurker. Fierce is good too, means Saruman can use Throne of Isengard's boon on another minion.

The text abilities on the card are also pretty cool. Access to healing would help a lot in Expanded with there being so many wounding decks (Counteracts Powerful Guide and Last Ruling Steward), and healing Foul Horde also helps its ambush, which in turn makes more twilight for the ring.

Extra vitality is great for Agent of the Dark Lord too, he'd have 7 vitality with Isengard Siege Bow + Staff of Saruman + Saruman's Ring

@Floydos: Interesting card, it kinda reminds me of the Southron card Wrath of Harad. Maybe you could word it like this:

•Orthanc Prison
Condition
To play spot Saruman.
Plays to your support area.
Each Spell gains this cost: "Exert a Wizard."

Expensive, but a nice anti Gandalf card, particularly against Powerful Guide, although he might discard it pretty quickly with stuff like Pallando. Perhaps it could be a possession? That would, as a general rule, give it more durability, which it's going to need if it costs 4, is unique and has to spot Saruman.