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Felipe Musco
Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:10 pm
Joined: 18 May 2006 Posts: 2434 Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil
Link to Challenge 1
Link to Challenge 2


Question 1 (easy):

Bto attacks physcosick with Mire Boa, but before damage goes on the stack physco plays Sudden Shock, targetting the Boa, claiming it dies. Bto argues that, in fact, he can’t respond to the spell by regenerating the Boa, but he can let it resolve, and then regenerate it as it’s about to die. Who’s right? Why?

Question 2 (medium):

FM controls Tarmogoyf. He sacrifices Horizon Canopy in order to draw a card, and then attacks with his Goyf. Horizon Canopy is the only card in his graveyard. On the other side of the table, nefore damage does on the stack, elf lvr plays Shock, targetting Tarmogoyf, while his graveyad is empty. What happens?

Question 3 (hard):

Cobra controls a pair of Knight of the Holy Nimbus and a pair of Benalish Cavalry that are beating Elessar’s Socks sensless. On the other hand, Elessar’s finally drew his 8th land to cast the devastating Sulfurous Blast AND take out both Knights, shipping the turn back to Cobra to use it during the attack phase, maybe nabbing another creature if he plays one. Then, Cobra plays Pithing Needle to the tale and says nothing, staring Elessar’s, who says "...ok". He then name Knight of the Holy Nimbus. Elessar’s calls you, as a judge, to complain that if he knew the Needle was meant for the Knights he’d have played Sulfurous Blast in response, claiming Cobra didn’t specify the Needle’s targets as he played it. What do you do?
I don't like YOU.
Felipe Musco
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:44 am
Joined: 18 May 2006 Posts: 2434 Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil
Anyone? Rolling Eyes You know, the idea behind these is to just try and answer to the best of your knowledge, not to go researching for the answer...
I don't like YOU.
Elessar's Socks
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:17 pm
Joined: 29 Jul 2007 Posts: 349 Location:
Whoa... I’m doing this for fun (thought you were, too), not because it’s a job, and I’d sooner bow out of it (which is a shame, because they’ve been really helpful), rather than antagonize you over it. My time is split between other posts, other forums, and real life (we just celebrated Thanksgiving holiday here in the US), and sometimes I just plain don’t feel like answering something right then. These quizzes are especially time consuming for me because I’m not familiar with the rules and the cards at all (didn’t even know what was beating me senseless Sad). Maybe setting a deadline would be helpful in giving us an idea whether this is a daily quiz, a weekly quiz, or what.

Anyway, do you seriously not want us to look up the rules? It’s not like a trivia question where we’re asked to name a certain card, in which case running a search on it would just be plain stupid. To my mind these quizzes are testing us on their application, and even being able to recite the rules verbatim sure doesn’t guarantee we’d apply them right. I figured it was better to attempt a halfway decent response (like looking up which specific gameplay violation might be applicable in Question 3), rather than pulling stuff out of my butt and wasting both our time.

Well, after all that I’d be remiss not to take a crack at these:

Quote:
Question 1 (easy):

Bto attacks physcosick with Mire Boa, but before damage goes on the stack physco plays Sudden Shock, targetting the Boa, claiming it dies. Bto argues that, in fact, he can’t respond to the spell by regenerating the Boa, but he can let it resolve, and then regenerate it as it’s about to die. Who’s right? Why?

phsycosick. Regeneration is a destruction-replacement effect, and as a replacement effect it needs to be active before Sudden Shock resolves and SBEs are checked (seeing lethal damage on the Boa). The Boa will be destroyed.

Quote:
Question 2 (medium):

FM controls Tarmogoyf. He sacrifices Horizon Canopy in order to draw a card, and then attacks with his Goyf. Horizon Canopy is the only card in his graveyard. On the other side of the table, nefore damage does on the stack, elf lvr plays Shock, targetting Tarmogoyf, while his graveyad is empty. What happens?

Shock deals 2 damage to a 1/2 Tarmogoyf and goes to the graveyard (the Shock, I mean) when it resolves. Then SBEs are checked. There’s a land and an instant in the graveyards so the Tarmogoyf winds up at 2/3 with 2 damage. It survives.

...please don’t tell me I messed this up again. Embarassed

Quote:
Question 3 (hard):

Cobra controls a pair of Knight of the Holy Nimbus and a pair of Benalish Cavalry that are beating Elessar’s Socks sensless. On the other hand, Elessar’s finally drew his 8th land to cast the devastating Sulfurous Blast AND take out both Knights, shipping the turn back to Cobra to use it during the attack phase, maybe nabbing another creature if he plays one. Then, Cobra plays Pithing Needle to the tale and says nothing, staring Elessar’s, who says "...ok". He then name Knight of the Holy Nimbus. Elessar’s calls you, as a judge, to complain that if he knew the Needle was meant for the Knights he’d have played Sulfurous Blast in response, claiming Cobra didn’t specify the Needle’s targets as he played it. What do you do?

Uh... uhm? *LOL* I’m thinking it’s too late to back up and choose a target (Cobra was supposed to when it came into play) because by this point he knows I have Sulfurous Blast in hand, and that may affect his decision. So Pithing Needle will go to the graveyard with no effect. And since Cobra was busy staring and not properly reflecting on the game state, give him a penalty for slow play, yeah!! Evil or Very Mad

BTW, it’d be cool if you could explain whether "As Pithing Needle comes into play, name a card" is considered a triggered ability, and whether zone-change triggers (I think they’re called?) even go on the stack. I must say, I couldn’t figure out whether the rules for gameplay errors for missed triggers applied to this situation.
Felipe Musco
Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:53 pm
Joined: 18 May 2006 Posts: 2434 Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil
The main idea is to make it a weekly challenge, but since I want to try and stir some movement up, I’m doing them in a less-than-weekly regular basis. Answers will be posted later, btw, so if anyone still wants to take a crack at these, now is the time.
I don't like YOU.
Elessar's Socks
Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:30 pm
Joined: 29 Jul 2007 Posts: 349 Location:
So I was digging around some more on Question 3, and there was a similar incident with someone playing Meddling Mage and forgetting to name a card. (Although I doubt Cobra forgot here, and I’m still not sure it if can’t count as a looong "come into play" action. Razz)

In that situation some people were saying MM’s ability doesn’t have a trigger so the "missed triggers" section doesn’t apply--is that true? The guy who played Meddling Mage was penalized for a "game rule violation" (why wasn’t it "failure to reveal"?), and his opponent was penalized for "failure to maintain game state" and actually given a loss because he noticed it the following turn but didn’t inform his opponent.

Not sure how much of this applies to the case with the Pithing Needle, but any light you could shed on these two situations would be great. And what the heck does my "ok" mean? Could I be considered cheating? Shocked
Felipe Musco
Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:45 pm
Joined: 18 May 2006 Posts: 2434 Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil
Question 1 (easy):

Bto attacks physcosick with Mire Boa, but before damage goes on the stack physco plays Sudden Shock, targetting the Boa, claiming it dies. Bto argues that, in fact, he can’t respond to the spell by regenerating the Boa, but he can let it resolve, and then regenerate it as it’s about to die. Who’s right? Why?

Answer:

Regeneration is an ACTIVATED ability, and as such, uses the stack normally. So, when physcosick plays Sudden Shock, bto can’t play Mire Boa’s ability. Then, Sudden Shock resolves, and SBEs are checked, seeing a creature with lethal damage on it, thus destroying it. Bto can’t use the regeneration during that, because while SBEs are being checked, no player receives priority. However, if bto had already activated regeneration for any reason, the regeneration shield WOULD be active, and his Boa WOULD regenerate.

Question 2 (medium):

FM controls Tarmogoyf. He sacrifices Horizon Canopy in order to draw a card, and then attacks with his Goyf. Horizon Canopy is the only card in his graveyard. On the other side of the table, before damage goes on the stack, elf lvr plays Shock, targetting Tarmogoyf, while his graveyad is empty. What happens?

Answer:

Tarmogoyf is 1/2 at the moment of the attack. When Shock resolves, Tarmogoyf HAS 2 damage on it. However, that happens only after Shock resolves (thus going to the graveyard), so when the game checks SBEs, Shock is alredy at the graveyard, and Tarmogoyf is now a 2/3 with 2 damage on it, so not only does it live, but since damage had not yet gone on the stack, he deals 2 damage.

Question 3 (hard):

Cobra controls a pair of Knight of the Holy Nimbus and a pair of Benalish Cavalry that are beating Elessar’s Socks sensless. On the other hand, Elessar’s finally drew his 8th land to cast the devastating Sulfurous Blast AND take out both Knights, shipping the turn back to Cobra to use it during the attack phase, maybe nabbing another creature if he plays one. Then, Cobra plays Pithing Needle to the table and says nothing, staring Elessar’s, who says "...ok". He then name Knight of the Holy Nimbus. Elessar’s calls you, as a judge, to complain that if he knew the Needle was meant for the Knights he’d have played Sulfurous Blast in response, claiming Cobra didn’t specify the Needle’s targets as he played it. What do you do?

Answer:

Ok, first thing here, the "ok" from Elessar’s Socks means he is letting the spell resolve, I hope that’s clear. So, what happens here? Pithing Needle does NOT have a triggered ability, nor does its ability targets, as you can see from the wording on Oracle. Because of this, Cobra is correct, he only names the card when Pithing Needle is resolving. Also, notice naming the card is part of the resolution, so no player gets priority to try and respond to the card named, so what Elessar’s Socks should’ve done here is cast the Blast with Needle still on the stack.
I don't like YOU.
Felipe Musco
Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:06 pm
Joined: 18 May 2006 Posts: 2434 Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil
Elessar’s Socks wrote:
So I was digging around some more on Question 3, and there was a similar incident with someone playing Meddling Mage and forgetting to name a card. (Although I doubt Cobra forgot here, and I’m still not sure it if can’t count as a looong "come into play" action. Razz)


As I said, Cobra didn’t forget to name a card, naming a card is part of the resolution of Pithing Needle, and since it’s not a triggered ability, it can’t be a CIP (which also means that, after the Needle has resolved, you can’t try to stop it’s controller from naming the card with stuff like Trickbind or Stifle)

Elessar’s Socks wrote:
In that situation some people were saying MM’s ability doesn’t have a trigger so the "missed triggers" section doesn’t apply--is that true? The guy who played Meddling Mage was penalized for a "game rule violation" (why wasn’t it "failure to reveal"?), and his opponent was penalized for "failure to maintain game state" and actually given a loss because he noticed it the following turn but didn’t inform his opponent.


Meddling Mage works just the same, naming the card is part of the resolution, so it can’t be a missed trigger. Also, if it WERE indeed a missed trigger, the trigger would then trigger, and what happens in this case is that Meddling Mage simply stays in play naming nothing, as a costly bear. If someone got a gameloss out of the situation, the it was probably his opponent, which didn’t remind him of naming a card, which constitutes a "softer cheating" (there is no such concept, I’m just not finding good enough words right now), so the game loss was well applied.

Elessar’s Socks wrote:
Not sure how much of this applies to the case with the Pithing Needle, but any light you could shed on these two situations would be great. And what the heck does my "ok" mean? Could I be considered cheating? Shocked


That "ok" means just that you let it resolve, so he WILL name the card.
I don't like YOU.
Elessar's Socks
Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:13 pm
Joined: 29 Jul 2007 Posts: 349 Location:
Felipe Musco wrote:
Because of this, Cobra is correct, he only names the card when Pithing Needle is resolving. Also, notice naming the card is part of the resolution, so no player gets priority to try and respond to the card named, so what Elessar’s Socks should’ve done here is cast the Blast with Needle still on the stack.

Shouldn’t Cobra be naming a card as the Pithing Needle comes into play? I thought a spell has to be played before it can go on the stack, although its actual resolution comes later.

So if naming a card is part of the resolution, what’s the point of adding the "As Pithing Needle comes into play" bit? Wouldn’t "Name a card. Activated abilities of sources with the chosen name can’t be played unless they’re mana abilities." work instead?
Felipe Musco
Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:23 pm
Joined: 18 May 2006 Posts: 2434 Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil
It wouldn’t, because Pithing Needle is a permanent, not a spell (like Conjurer’s Ban). The "as X comes into play" bit denotes it as part of the spell’s resolution.
I don't like YOU.
Elessar's Socks
Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:05 pm
Joined: 29 Jul 2007 Posts: 349 Location:
So lemme get this straight without hopefully going in too many circles. While Pithing Needle is on the stack, it’s considered having been played as a spell, right? But it hasn’t come into play as in moving from the stack to the playing field, which is what the "comes into play" is referring to? It’s like there’s two different meanings for "play"--something can be played but not "in play"--and I’m getting fouled up between them.

Thanks for answering my other questions as well. One day I’m gonna get the third question right, or there’ll be Sulfurous Blasts for all! Evil or Very Mad GP

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