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elf lvr
Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:32 pm
Joined: 13 Jun 2006 Posts: 3065 Location: Rivendell
A few situations.

I have a, say, Wren’s Run Vanquisher out, with 2 Gaea’s Anthems in play. Someone Ovinizes it. Is it a 0/1 or a 2/3, since Gaea’s Anthems are sorta out there still?

Now, say it’s a 0/1 from Ovinize. I can play Giant Growth to make it a 3/4 now, correct?

Next, same situation, only instead of Ovinize, they play Lingify. Is my creature a 0/4 or a 2/6?

Another. If I have Guile, and they Lingify it, but have out two Gauntlet of Power that have chosen Green. Now is it a 2/6?

I have Vigor equipped with Loxodon Warhammer. They Lingify him. Is he a 0/4 or a 3/4?

This time Vigor got Ovinized. Can I put the Hammer somewhere else, then re-equip it to him to make him a 3/1?

I think that’s it, but I just wondered what kind of effects have authority.
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Felipe Musco
Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:39 pm
Joined: 18 May 2006 Posts: 2434 Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil
This is explained by the Layers Rule, the hardest and most dreaded of all the MtG’s rules, learn this, and you’re good to go! I’ll post the rule here later, I don’t have it on this computer, nor have I access to the Comprehensive Rulebook here.
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Felipe Musco
Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:54 am
Joined: 18 May 2006 Posts: 2434 Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil
Ok, here it goes!

418.5. Interaction of Continuous Effects

418.5a The values of an object’s characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object, then applying continuous effects in a series of layers in the following order: (1) copy effects (see rule 503, "Copying Objects"); (2) control-changing effects; (3) text-changing effects; (4) type-changing effects (which includes effects that change an object’s card type, subtype, and/or supertype); (5) all other continuous effects, except those that change power and/or toughness; and (6) power- and/or toughness-changing effects.
Inside each layer from 1 through 5, apply effects from characteristic-defining abilities first, then all other effects in timestamp order. Inside layer 6, apply effects in a series of sublayers in the following order: (6a) effects from characteristic-defining abilities; (6b) all other effects not specifically applied in 6c, 6d, or 6e; (6c) changes from counters; (6d) effects from static abilities that modify power and/or toughness but don’t set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value; and (6e) effects that switch a creature’s power and toughness. Within each sublayer, apply effects in timestamp order. Note that dependency may alter the order in which effects are applied within a layer or sublayer.

418.5b If an effect should be applied in different layers, the parts of the effect each apply in their appropriate layers. If an effect starts to apply in one layer, it will continue to be applied to the same set of objects in each other applicable layer, even if the ability generating the effect is removed during this process.

418.5g A continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability receives a timestamp at the time it’s created.

Need me to clarify anything?
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elf lvr
Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:43 pm
Joined: 13 Jun 2006 Posts: 3065 Location: Rivendell
yeah, could you clarify some of the examples I posted? That’ll help me understand the actual application of that rule...
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Felipe Musco
Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:25 am
Joined: 18 May 2006 Posts: 2434 Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil
Can do. Let’s see:

1) I have a, say, Wren’s Run Vanquisher out, with 2 Gaea’s Anthems in play. Someone Ovinizes it. Is it a 0/1 or a 2/3, since Gaea’s Anthems are sorta out there still?

Ok, we are dealing with power/toughness-changing effects, so we’re deep within layer 6. Ovinize alters the power and toughness without being itself a Characteristic-Defining Ability (such as Tarmogoyf’s gametext), so it would apply in layer 6b. Both Gaea’s Anthem would apply in layer 6d, in timestamp order (not that it matters in practical terms, but still nice to notice). So, we would get Wren’s Run Vanquisher’s P/T (3/3), and then apply the effects in order, meaning, layer 6b first (0/1), then layer 6d (2/3), so his power/toughness would end up being 2/3.

2) Now, say it’s a 0/1 from Ovinize. I can play Giant Growth to make it a 3/4 now, correct?

Ok, now we do not have Anthems, so it’s turned into 0/1. Pumping would, in fact, make it a 3/4.

3) Next, same situation, only instead of Ovinize, they play Lingify. Is my creature a 0/4 or a 2/6?

Same way, except Lignify ALSO affects layers 3 and 4. This is why, for instance, if you Lignify a Changeling, it is NOT a changeling anymore, but a 0/4 Ent. You see, you start applying the actual object’s CDA’s, making it all creature types, but THEN you wuold apply, in layers 3 and 4, Lignify’s ability, making it lose any game text (and, therefore, changeling) and turning it into an Ent shortly after.

4) Another. If I have Guile, and they Lingify it, but have out two Gauntlet of Power that have chosen Green. Now is it a 2/6?

No, Lignify makes it a 0/4 Treefolk, not a 0/4 GREEN Treefolk, this characteristic (the color) is left unaltered. But now, Guile has no game text, so no nicking other spells, OR shuffling him back if he dies, because then he’s sent to the graveayrd, the game will not check the card itself, but it’s last know info, which was that of a 0/4 Treefolk with no abilities whatsoever.

5) I have Vigor equipped with Loxodon Warhammer. They Lignify him. Is he a 0/4 or a 3/4

Again, in order, Vigor loses his mighty game text, and is then made into a Treefolk creature. Then, his P/T get’s set at 0/4, and THEN Loxodon Warhammer gives it lifelink and trample (in layer 5), and also set his P/T at 3/4 (in layer 6d).

6) This time Vigor got Ovinized. Can I put the Hammer somewhere else, then re-equip it to him to make him a 3/1?

By now you probably realized Ovinizing won’t do squat about the Warhammer’s abilities, but if it DID, for instance, if the warhammer applied effects in layer 2, then re-equipping it would be useless, because it’d still affect the same layer, BEFORE Ovinize applied. However, warhammer applies AFTER Ovinize, so there’s no need to do that. Also, Ovinize tends to be played during the combat step, so you wouldn’t be able to equip, since it must be done at sorcery speed.

So, NOW did it help? Very Happy
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NBarden
Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:51 am
Joined: 28 Dec 2006 Posts: 5468 Location: I don't know...
Felipe Musco wrote:
Ok, here it goes!

418.5. Interaction of Continuous Effects

418.5a The values of an object’s characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object, then applying continuous effects in a series of layers in the following order: (1) copy effects (see rule 503, "Copying Objects"); (2) control-changing effects; (3) text-changing effects; (4) type-changing effects (which includes effects that change an object’s card type, subtype, and/or supertype); (5) all other continuous effects, except those that change power and/or toughness; and (6) power- and/or toughness-changing effects.
Inside each layer from 1 through 5, apply effects from characteristic-defining abilities first, then all other effects in timestamp order. Inside layer 6, apply effects in a series of sublayers in the following order: (6a) effects from characteristic-defining abilities; (6b) all other effects not specifically applied in 6c, 6d, or 6e; (6c) changes from counters; (6d) effects from static abilities that modify power and/or toughness but don’t set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value; and (6e) effects that switch a creature’s power and toughness. Within each sublayer, apply effects in timestamp order. Note that dependency may alter the order in which effects are applied within a layer or sublayer.

418.5b If an effect should be applied in different layers, the parts of the effect each apply in their appropriate layers. If an effect starts to apply in one layer, it will continue to be applied to the same set of objects in each other applicable layer, even if the ability generating the effect is removed during this process.

418.5g A continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability receives a timestamp at the time it’s created.

Need me to clarify anything?


Methinks a simplified explanation of how this works would be great.

Also, can you explain how Bureaucracy’s game text works? Razz
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Felipe Musco
Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:51 pm
Joined: 18 May 2006 Posts: 2434 Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil
As I said, there is no way to simplify this rule, it merely applies exactly as written. What I CAN do is analyze examples if you have a specific question. About your question, Un-sets are totally rogue territory, as the standard rules do not necessarily apply to them, so I can’t REALLY "explain how it works" except that "works as written". Also, since Un-sets are banned from tournament gameplay, they’re only good for casual play, and as such, your playgroup is entirely allowed to overrule regular rules.
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NBarden
Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:12 pm
Joined: 28 Dec 2006 Posts: 5468 Location: I don't know...
I was kidding. I don’t think anyone knows how Bureaucracy works.
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Felipe Musco
Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:43 pm
Joined: 18 May 2006 Posts: 2434 Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil
What’s so hard about it anyway? During each players upkeep, that player takes an "action" (any simple action you can do sitting in your chair playing the game, like clapping your hands once). Then, in the next player’s upkeep, that player repeats that action and adds another one. Then, the next player repeats them all, and adds another one. It goes on and on until someone misses something, and when it happens, you sacrifice Bureaucracy and the player who missed discards his hand.
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dnn81
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:02 am
Joined: 31 Jan 2008 Posts: 2 Location:
Ola Felipe.

I hope you can help me with my examples too.

There is a 1/1 creature with five +1/+1 counters on it.

Next turn it gets a -1/-1 untill end of turn from a spell.

Does it die? Since -1/-1 is on 6b layer and the counters are on 6c layer?

So it "gets" the -1/-1 first before it gets the counters?

Is it the same if it gets an enchantment that gives it -1/-1?

thanx

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