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DáinIronfoot
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:23 pm
Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 4594 Location: Beltsville, MD, USA
Okay, those of you who have been reviewing my cards since the Lasting Alliances days know that I introduced a very controversial concept in that set: capturing and rescuing of opponents’ characters.

The original concept (which nearly everyone thought was badly overpowered) was that you could capture an opponent’s character much like controlling an opponent’s site. Captured characters would go in your support area. Captured characters cannot be used by their owner, and the player who captured them can get some benefits from them. They can only become "un-captured" when their owner rescues them somehow. Companions, allies, and minions could all be captured, though it usually wasn’t terribly easy to do so, especially for Shadow players. A few examples of capturing cards:

3Captain of the Guard Gandalf
Companion • Man
Strength: 7
Vitality: 3
Resistance: 6
Knight.
While bearing a hand weapon, Captain of the Guard is strength +1 and damage +1.
Each time Captain of the Guard wins a skirmish, you may exert him to capture a minion in that skirmish.
“‘If you come in peace lay down your arms!’”

3Ecthelhador, Chief Guard Green
Companion • Elf
Strength: 7
Vitality: 3
Resistance: 7
To play, spot a Green Elf.
Each time Ecthelhador wins a skirmish, you may exert him to capture an exhausted minion in that skirmish.
Fellowship or Regroup: Exert Ecthelhador to draw a card for each captured minion in your support area (limit 3). Limit once per turn.
“‘He wasn’t a bad fellow, and quite decent to the prisoners.’”

4Great Goblin, Truly Tremendous One Moria
Minion • Orc
Strength: 9
Vitality: 3
Site: 4
Fierce. Lurker.
To play, spot a Moria Orc.
Each time a Moria Orc wins a skirmish, you may exert Great Goblin twice to capture a character in that skirmish.
“‘Murderers and elf-friends!...Take them away to dark holes full of snakes, and never let them see the light again!’”

4Cablas, Entangler Green
Minion • Spider
Strength: 6
Vitality: 6
Site: 7
Enduring. Damage +1.
While Cablas has no more than 3 vitality, he is fierce.
Each time Cablas wins a fierce skirmish, you may heal him twice to capture a character in that skirmish.
“‘It was a sharp struggle, but worth it. What nasty thick skins they have to be sure, but I’ll wager there is good juice inside.’”

Anyway, over time, people convinced me that capturing a character permanently, with no hope of rescue save for you using some type of rescue card to get them back, was simply too powerful. So I tried to come up with ways to limit the time a captured character remained captured, none of which I really liked.

But, I think I may finally have a solution. I’m tackling this from several angles now. I want to limit the amount of time a captured character remains captured, but not so much that rescuing cards become useless. I also want to limit the number of characters you can capture at a time, especially for Shadow players. It’s just mean to think about several members of your fellowship being captured at once.

So, here is what I propose:

1.) Captured companions/allies remain captured ONLY while there are minions in play. As soon as the last minion is killed or discarded, all captured companions/allies are automatically rescued...which makes a lot of sense if you think about it.
Captured minions remain captured indefinately, but with a key qualifier: each time the fellowship moves, they must add twilight tokens equal to the total printed cost of all minions they have captured. Any minion NOT paid for in this way is automatically rescued...though in this case, the Shadow player chooses one of the following: they can pay that minion’s cost again and play it, or they can discard it.

Rescuing cards still work as before: rescued companions/allies are automatically returned to the fellowship, and rescued minions return to play, free to harass the fellowship again.

2.) I am creating two new loaded keywords: prison and upkeep.

Prison will always appear as "Prison – X", where X is the number of captured characters that can be stacked on that prison. Prisons will (probably) always appear as support area conditions, so rather than just moving captured characters to your support area, they now have to have an eligible prison to be stacked on. If there is no such place to put them, then you cannot capture any more characters. Also, since prisons are conditions, they can be discarded like any other condition; when this happens, all captured characters stacked there are rescued as if you had just played a rescuing card.

Upkeep – [text] will always appear on prisons. These are costs that must be paid at the start of each regroup phase to keep that prison in play. If the cost is not paid, the prison is discarded, and again, all captured characters there are rescued.

A couple examples:

1 Dungeon of the King Green
Condition • Support Area
Prison – 2. Upkeep – Exert an Elf.
To stack a captured minion here, spot 2 Elves (or a Green Elf).
“‘Take him away and keep him safe, until he feels inclined to tell the truth, even if he waits a hundred years.’”

2 Tangled Webs Green
Condition • Support Area
Prison – 2. Upkeep – heal a Spider.
To stack a captured character here, heal a Spider (or spot 2 Spiders).
“...a dozen bundles hanging in a row from a high branch. Bilbo was horrified, now that he noticed them for the first time dangling in the shadows, to see a dwarvish foot sticking out of the bottoms of some of the bundles, or here and there the tip of a nose, or a bit of beard or of a hood.”

Note that these ALSO have a cost that must be paid each time you stack a captured character on that prison. If you can’t do what is required, then you can’t stack a captured character on that prison...and if you don’t have any prisons that you CAN pay the proper costs for, you can’t capture anyone.

I know this is all rather complicated, and it’s far more complex then even I wanted it to be, but I think it’s necessary to make capturing work. I don’t want to abandon the concept, since it’s already a huge part of Lasting Alliances and will be a smaller (but imporant) part of a couple more of my sets, but I want it to be fair and balanced at the same time.

So, can this work? Any further suggestions? Is it just TOO complicated now?
Last edited by DáinIronfoot on Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:51 pm; edited 2 times in totalBest regards, Dáin, Vice Aftokrator of the Chosen Ones

Check out Lasting Alliances, The Road Ahead, and Ages of Middle-earth, three of my five dream card sets that make up Wars of the Ring. Oh, and I have a trade list now!

Also, if you're into DCs or RPGs (or even if you're not!), check out Realms of Middle-earth, the sequel to CG's "DC Adventure", Realms of the North!
Anonymous Prodigy
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:37 pm
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 4197 Location: United States
The concept looks even better than before, and I think that Upkeep will really balance the whole idea. Smile
I had to put something here.
DáinIronfoot
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:45 pm
Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 4594 Location: Beltsville, MD, USA
That’s what I was hoping.

At worst, captured companions will only remain so until you end your turn, and that’s only if the Shadow player pays some costs to keep them. I thought about making Shadow players pay captured companions’ twilight cost much like the Free Peoples player has to with minions (and if they can’t, they have to free that companion)...how would that be?

Captured minions will also be tough to hold onto, especially tough ones like, say, The Balrog and Sauron. I’d be a little leary about adding 14+ twilight when I move!

Essentially, this is like a drawn out Shelob, Her Ladyship, though easier in some ways and harder in others.

Yet rescuing cards are still very useful--which is something I wanted to preserve--since they allow you to get your companions back into the fellowship if you choose to move again or get your minions back (for free) in time to harass the fellowship some more. Twisted Evil
Best regards, Dáin, Vice Aftokrator of the Chosen Ones

Check out Lasting Alliances, The Road Ahead, and Ages of Middle-earth, three of my five dream card sets that make up Wars of the Ring. Oh, and I have a trade list now!

Also, if you're into DCs or RPGs (or even if you're not!), check out Realms of Middle-earth, the sequel to CG's "DC Adventure", Realms of the North!
sickofpalantirs
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:01 pm
Joined: 23 Mar 2006 Posts: 7750 Location: somwhere, over the rainbow way up high. There's a land that I heard of once in a lullaby.
this looks very good. much better than my suggestion to steal thran’s locked mechanic and rename it as captured Laughing
ArrowSop's haves/ top wantsExclamation
(mm)"SoP: you will always be the Official CC Spammer in my heart"
"DáinIronfoot"
Spammers really are amazing creatures. You can learn all there is to know about their ways in a month. And yet, after a hundred years, they can still surprise you. Razz
Thranduil
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:44 pm
Joined: 01 May 2007 Posts: 2256 Location:
Just some points about some of the cards first:

DáinIronfoot wrote:
3Ecthelhador, Chief Guard Green
Companion • Elf
Strength: 7
Vitality: 3
Resistance: 7
To play, spot a Green Elf.
Each time Ecthelhador wins a skirmish, you may exert him to capture an exhausted minion in that skirmish.
Fellowship or Regroup: Exert Ecthelhador to draw a card for each captured minion in your support area (limit 3). Limit once per turn.
“‘He wasn’t a bad fellow, and quite decent to the prisoners.’”

Doesn’t need 2 limits. Limit 3 means that 3 is the maximum, no matter how many times you use the ability in a turn.

DáinIronfoot wrote:
4Great Goblin, Truly Tremendous One Moria
Minion • Orc
Strength: 9
Vitality: 3
Site: 4
Fierce. Lurker.
To play, spot a Moria Orc.
Each time a Moria Orc wins a skirmish, you may exert Great Goblin twice to capture a character in that skirmish.
“‘Murderers and elf-friends!...Take them away to dark holes full of snakes, and never let them see the light again!’”

Given that he can only do it once and that ’Each time’ implies a repeated trigger, I think it should be a response action to be a bit cleaner.

DáinIronfoot wrote:
4Cablas, Entangler Green
Minion • Spider
Strength: 6
Vitality: 6
Site: 7
Enduring. Damage +1.
While Cablas has no more than 3 vitality, he is fierce.
Each time Cablas wins a fierce skirmish, you may heal him twice to capture a character in that skirmish.
“‘It was a sharp struggle, but worth it. What nasty thick skins they have to be sure, but I’ll wager there is good juice inside.’”

’Vitality 3 or less’ I think is clearer.

DáinIronfoot wrote:
Anyway, over time, people convinced me that capturing a character permanently, with no hope of rescue save for you using some type of rescue card to get them back, was simply too powerful. So I tried to come up with ways to limit the time a captured character remained captured, none of which I really liked.

But, I think I may finally have a solution. I’m tackling this from several angles now. I want to limit the amount of time a captured character remains captured, but not so much that rescuing cards become useless. I also want to limit the number of characters you can capture at a time, especially for Shadow players. It’s just mean to think about several members of your fellowship being captured at once.

So, here is what I propose:

1.) Captured companions/allies remain captured ONLY while there are minions in play. As soon as the last minion is killed or discarded, all captured companions/allies are automatically rescued...which makes a lot of sense if you think about it.
Captured minions remain captured indefinately, but with a key qualifier: each time the fellowship moves, they must add twilight tokens equal to the total printed cost of all minions they have captured. Any minion NOT paid for in this way is automatically rescued...though in this case, the Shadow player chooses one of the following: they can pay that minion’s cost again and play it, or they can discard it.

I’m not a big fan of 2 distinctly different methods of upkeep for Shadow and FP. I love the bit about Free Peoples captured characters, but I would suggest that BOTH FP and Shadow should have to pay upkeep costs. As well as making capturing companions harder, a universal rule is much neater than 2 separate mechanics.

DáinIronfoot wrote:
Rescuing cards still work as before: rescued companions/allies are automatically returned to the fellowship, and rescued minions return to play, free to harass the fellowship again.

Again, for both sides this should work in the same way and so both players should either have to pay the cost again or not. I’m thinking that it’s unnecessary to pay the cost again - after all, you already paid for it once and if you’re paying upkeep anyway.

DáinIronfoot wrote:
2.) I am creating two new loaded keywords: prison and upkeep.

Prison will always appear as "Prison – X", where X is the number of captured characters that can be stacked on that prison. Prisons will (probably) always appear as support area conditions, so rather than just moving captured characters to your support area, they now have to have an eligible prison to be stacked on. If there is no such place to put them, then you cannot capture any more characters. Also, since prisons are conditions, they can be discarded like any other condition; when this happens, all captured characters stacked there are rescued as if you had just played a rescuing card.

Upkeep – [text] will always appear on prisons. These are costs that must be paid at the start of each regroup phase to keep that prison in play. If the cost is not paid, the prison is discarded, and again, all captured characters there are rescued.

A couple examples:

1 Dungeon of the King Green
Condition • Support Area
Prison – 2. Upkeep – Exert an Elf.
To stack a captured minion here, spot 2 Elves (or a Green Elf).
“‘Take him away and keep him safe, until he feels inclined to tell the truth, even if he waits a hundred years.’”

2 Tangled Webs Green
Condition • Support Area
Prison – 2. Upkeep – heal a Spider.
To stack a captured character here, heal a Spider (or spot 2 Spiders).
“...a dozen bundles hanging in a row from a high branch. Bilbo was horrified, now that he noticed them for the first time dangling in the shadows, to see a dwarvish foot sticking out of the bottoms of some of the bundles, or here and there the tip of a nose, or a bit of beard or of a hood.”

Note that these ALSO have a cost that must be paid each time you stack a captured character on that prison. If you can’t do what is required, then you can’t stack a captured character on that prison...and if you don’t have any prisons that you CAN pay the proper costs for, you can’t capture anyone.

I know this is all rather complicated, and it’s far more complex then even I wanted it to be, but I think it’s necessary to make capturing work. I don’t want to abandon the concept, since it’s already a huge part of Lasting Alliances and will be a smaller (but imporant) part of a couple more of my sets, but I want it to be fair and balanced at the same time.

So, can this work? Any further suggestions? Is it just TOO complicated now?

I really don’t like the prison thing - seems just an extra unnecessary level of complexity and a horrible combo you have to fulfil in order for your strategy to work. It’s a good method of balancing, but it makes me not want to make any decks out of this mechanic - just not viable.

I think it would be more than balanced enough with the checks you mentioned above.

Thranduil
'We do what we do because of who we are. If we did otherwise, we would not be ourselves.'
- Dream of the Endless

Check out my block based on The Hobbit, my remake of Age's End, and the Fall of Eregion
Vote for your favourite Bilbo, Retired Adventurer(V)
DáinIronfoot
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:13 pm
Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 4594 Location: Beltsville, MD, USA
So Thran...you think I should have it work like this:


Captured companions/allies remain captured ONLY while there are minions in play. As soon as the last minion is killed or discarded, all captured companions/allies are automatically rescued...which makes a lot of sense if you think about it. Captured minions, however, remain captured indefinately...which also makes sense, since there are obviously always companions in play to keep those minions captured.

However, each time the fellowship moves, each player must pay twilight equal to the total printed cost of all characters they have captured. Any character NOT paid for in this way is automatically rescued.

Rescued companions/allies are automatically returned to the fellowship, and rescued minions return to play, free to harass the fellowship again. This is true whether automatically rescued as described above, or if some other type of card is played or effect takes place that rescues a character.


No prisons, no upkeep...just paying twilight to hold onto captured characters. You really think that alone balances it? I won’t argue with you--after all, that will save me a lot of trouble from going back and editing/creating cards--but I AM a bit surprised. Shocked
Best regards, Dáin, Vice Aftokrator of the Chosen Ones

Check out Lasting Alliances, The Road Ahead, and Ages of Middle-earth, three of my five dream card sets that make up Wars of the Ring. Oh, and I have a trade list now!

Also, if you're into DCs or RPGs (or even if you're not!), check out Realms of Middle-earth, the sequel to CG's "DC Adventure", Realms of the North!
Thranduil
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:19 pm
Joined: 01 May 2007 Posts: 2256 Location:
Especially for Shadow players, it’s now going to be tough enough to keep captured companions without paying the prisons’ upkeep because you have to remove twilight every time you move, and even at best you’ll have to give them back at the end of the turn anyway. And that’s the real issue, whether it’s tough to keep companions captured, as it’s the most powerful use of this mechanic. What really clinches the balance in my mind is that they return when no minions are in play, so if you kill all the minions, you get your companions back. That on top of cards which rescue people seems more than enough for me.

Though I have to say, I’m not sure I ever thought capturing was that overpowered in the first place.

Thranduil
'We do what we do because of who we are. If we did otherwise, we would not be ourselves.'
- Dream of the Endless

Check out my block based on The Hobbit, my remake of Age's End, and the Fall of Eregion
Vote for your favourite Bilbo, Retired Adventurer(V)
DáinIronfoot
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:29 pm
Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 4594 Location: Beltsville, MD, USA
Thranduil wrote:
Especially for Shadow players, it’s now going to be tough enough to keep captured companions without paying the prisons’ upkeep because you have to remove twilight every time you move, and even at best you’ll have to give them back at the end of the turn anyway. And that’s the real issue, whether it’s tough to keep companions captured, as it’s the most powerful use of this mechanic. What really clinches the balance in my mind is that they return when no minions are in play, so if you kill all the minions, you get your companions back. That on top of cards which rescue people seems more than enough for me.

Cool beans. That’s certainly fine by me. Thumbs Up

Thranduil wrote:
Though I have to say, I’m not sure I ever thought capturing was that overpowered in the first place.

I’m more worried about lem0n. I almost made the poor boy’s head blow a few times, I think.
Best regards, Dáin, Vice Aftokrator of the Chosen Ones

Check out Lasting Alliances, The Road Ahead, and Ages of Middle-earth, three of my five dream card sets that make up Wars of the Ring. Oh, and I have a trade list now!

Also, if you're into DCs or RPGs (or even if you're not!), check out Realms of Middle-earth, the sequel to CG's "DC Adventure", Realms of the North!
Thranduil
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:32 pm
Joined: 01 May 2007 Posts: 2256 Location:
DáinIronfoot wrote:
I’m more worried about lem0n. I almost made the poor boy’s head blow a few times, I think.

I’ve done more than my fair share of that too. I think it’s a bit of a Rite of Passage round here! Wink

Thranduil
'We do what we do because of who we are. If we did otherwise, we would not be ourselves.'
- Dream of the Endless

Check out my block based on The Hobbit, my remake of Age's End, and the Fall of Eregion
Vote for your favourite Bilbo, Retired Adventurer(V)
lem0nhead
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:25 am
Joined: 02 Apr 2007 Posts: 2981 Location: Blood Island
Thranduil wrote:
DáinIronfoot wrote:
I’m more worried about lem0n. I almost made the poor boy’s head blow a few times, I think.

I’ve done more than my fair share of that too. I think it’s a bit of a Rite of Passage round here! Wink

Thranduil


Hey are you guys making fun of poor old little me Crying or Very sad My wife is tired of picking seeds of the walls and wiping the citrus juice off!

Thranduil wrote:

Doesn’t need 2 limits. Limit 3 means that 3 is the maximum, no matter how many times you use the ability in a turn.

This is true.

Given that he can only do it once and that ’Each time’ implies a repeated trigger, I think it should be a response action to be a bit cleaner.

This however is not. This is the correct phrasing and works like a response as he can do in whatever victory skirmish he chooses. Other D cards are phrased like this. There may be vitality adders for example that could exploit responses.

’Vitality 3 or less’ I think is clearer.

True.

I really don’t like the prison thing - seems just an extra unnecessary level of complexity and a horrible combo you have to fulfil in order for your strategy to work. It’s a good method of balancing, but it makes me not want to make any decks out of this mechanic - just not viable.

I agree almost entirely.

I think it would be more than balanced enough with the checks you mentioned above.

Yes and no. If i capture a gorgoroth troop or something i aint paying 6 just to keep him the support area its insane! Unless i get an amazing reward equal to the cost to offset this. The benefit needs to be proportional to the pool adding.

The release of comps from no minions is fine.


Thranduil


I never said the tactic was OP i said it makes my head hurt and I am not the worlds biggest fan of it. (To say the least!)

After all why would i capture a morgul hound? Who cares, id rather stab it in the face.
Ban shampoo, demand real poo.
Popcorn My Trade List and CC References
"Smart guy, especially considering his head is filled with lemon juice and seeds. That boy’s juicy brain is FULL of good stuff" ~ DainIronfoot
"No fair! And all I got was an oily unconscious steward!" ~ Pippin.
"Okay, stop me if you've heard this one. An elf, a man, and a dwarf walk into the Riddermark..." ~ Eomer

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