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September 09, 2008, 06:47:03 AM
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Pepin The Breve

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Which Triggers first?
« on: September 09, 2008, 06:47:03 AM »
   The Freeps have some threats and a minion kill a companion in a skirmish so which of these cames first: responses to a minion wining (or to a companion losing) or the threats triggers?

   I think responses came first but what you say about that?

  References to the Rulebook will be apreciated too... :up:

  Thanks in advance!

September 09, 2008, 09:50:37 AM
Reply #1

FingolfinFinwe

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Re: Which Triggers first?
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2008, 09:50:37 AM »
I believe that characters are killed in the damage phase and threats are placed immediately after placing the dead character in the dead pile.  Responses to a minion winning that skirmish should come after threats are placed.   :up:

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.  :-k

September 09, 2008, 12:49:31 PM
Reply #2

Elf_Lvr

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Re: Which Triggers first?
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2008, 12:49:31 PM »
Well, besides the fact that there is no "damage phase" I see where you're coming from. But I think I have to disagree.

I think the last thing that happens in a skirmish phase is wounds being taken and threats being added, and a skirmish isn't over until all responses, each times, etc. have been resolved.

This doesn't come directly from the rulebook (my computer hates the program that our source documents open in...) just from other rulings I've seen, so I admit I could be woefully wrong. Wait for someone to come along with a rulebook to sort this out, I suppose.
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September 09, 2008, 01:22:34 PM
Reply #3

DáinIronfoot

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Re: Which Triggers first?
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2008, 01:22:34 PM »
The rulebook is a little vague. Here's what it says:

Quote
Skirmish Phase Summary
• Free Peoples player chooses a skirmish.
• Players perform skirmish actions.
• Resolve that skirmish and assign wounds.
• If any skirmishes are unresolved, repeat this procedure.

Combine that with this:

Quote
A skirmish phase ends after all actions triggered by winning or losing that skirmish have resolved.

Put together, that would imply to me that actions triggered by winning/losing are part of resolving the skirmish, and the third bullet of the phase summary would seem to imply that the resolving takes place BEFORE the wounds are assigned (followed by threats being triggered). Translation: the rules seem to imply that actions triggered by winning/losing take place before wounds are assigned.

In short: I agree with EL. :up:

Now watch Jord or bib or someone come and prove us BOTH wrong. :P
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September 09, 2008, 01:24:28 PM
Reply #4

Pepin The Breve

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Re: Which Triggers first?
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2008, 01:24:28 PM »
  Elf_Lvr have a piont but think this way: You place tokens for wounds resolving the skrimish and then killing a companion as it´s result... You place that companion at the dead pile and this is the time when threats trigger. I personally think that after a companion is killed the skirmish have been resolved but i think you may be right and threat triggering ocours before skirmish resolves completely and then the responses to win/lose take place.

   When i have time i will look the rulebook for some light on this, until that people can share their toughts about this with us  :up:

September 09, 2008, 03:48:20 PM
Reply #5

TheJord

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Re: Which Triggers first?
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2008, 03:48:20 PM »
Dain has made a good point

- Skirmish starts 
- Skirmish actions and events are played
- When all players pass, resolve skirmish
- Resolve means declare a winner and a loser
- Assign wounds, if a companions vitality is reduced to 0 as a result of this, follow the triggered actions for threats when they are placed in the dead pile

This procedure allows, for example, Gollum, Threatening Guide to add 1 more threat to the total threats, then watch the companion he has beaten die, and trigger that threat.
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September 09, 2008, 04:31:27 PM
Reply #6

Elessar's Socks

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Re: Which Triggers first?
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2008, 04:31:27 PM »
   The Freeps have some threats and a minion kill a companion in a skirmish so which of these cames first: responses to a minion wining (or to a companion losing) or the threats triggers?
Depends on if the responses to winning/losing a skirmish are required or optional. It's a little easier to talk about assigning "normal" wounds since that directly relates to the outcome of the skirmish, so I'll do that first.

If Down to the Last Child is in play, the FP player gets to choose whether to place wound tokens first or let DttLC resolve first, since they are both required actions to losing a skirmish. If the wounds are performed first, and a companion is killed, then the threats will have come before DttLC. If DttLC is performed first, then the threats will have come after (for what it's worth).

Alternatively if the Shadow player has You're a Liar and a Thief in hand, then as an optional action it must first wait for all the required actions to finish. In this case it'd be played after the threats have already triggered.

This procedure allows, for example, Gollum, Threatening Guide to add 1 more threat to the total threats, then watch the companion he has beaten die, and trigger that threat.
Well, first the threats are triggered, and then Threatening Guide may add a threat later as an optional action. So the threat won't join the original slew, but that's actually good in my book, since Not This Time! can be used in the fierce skirmish as well.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 04:36:15 PM by Elessar's Socks »

September 09, 2008, 04:46:03 PM
Reply #7

TheJord

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Re: Which Triggers first?
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2008, 04:46:03 PM »
This procedure allows, for example, Gollum, Threatening Guide to add 1 more threat to the total threats, then watch the companion he has beaten die, and trigger that threat.
Well, first the threats are triggered, and then Threatening Guide may add a threat later as an optional action. So the threat won't join the original slew, but that's actually good in my book, since Not This Time! can be used in the fierce skirmish as well.
[/quote]

Im sorry but you're wrong on this one.
The skirmish is resolved, Gollum is declared the winner, his "Each time..." ability triggers, wounds are placed, threats are triggered.

His ability is "Each time he wins a skirmish", and wounds are placed after the winner is decided.
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September 09, 2008, 05:10:37 PM
Reply #8

Elessar's Socks

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Re: Which Triggers first?
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2008, 05:10:37 PM »
His text says "Each time Gollum wins a skirmish, you may add a threat." I consider that an optional action (an optional action is defined as an action using "may"), and therefore the required action of assigning threats would take precedence.

So basically I'm saying two things:

- Wound placement is a required action
- Gollum's text is an optional action

I think I can dig up support for the former, and I've yet to see where "Each time" is defined to be a required action, overriding the "may" rule. Did I hit on the issue here, or is it something else?

September 09, 2008, 06:25:19 PM
Reply #9

Pepin The Breve

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Re: Which Triggers first?
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2008, 06:25:19 PM »
  I think you guys are going in the right way. Consulting the rulebook i came to this:

  The main point on deciding which actions triggers first is consulting if the action is either required or optional actions. In case of two actions in the same categorie (two required actions for example) the freeps decides the order in which they occur.

  Threats are a required action due to a death of a companion so it takes place before any optional actions of winning/losing can happen. If another condition like DttLC have a mandatory response to it the freeps decides which triggers first. Before the mandatory actions take place the optional can be performed (playing a response event, using a special hability or whatever action that has the word "may" on it). So i guess ES have it right here...

   But notice that, like Jord sayed, skirmish resolve before actions as assign wounds take place, so actually you respond to it before threats trigger because the winning side is defined before wounds are placed (or the character is killed).

  In the Gollum case we have some troubling factors: If Gollum wins the skirmish simply because his strenght is higher than the companions we have all the actions (required and optional) triggering before skirmish resolves and the threats are triggered...

   BUT if Gollum kills a companion with some direct wounding (They Stole It or Not This Time!) like he normally does, the companion death match the exact time when winning/losing (because the companion is removed from skirmish going direct to the dead pile before any strenght count were done) so threats and mandatory actions from win/lose take place at the same time, cause threat triggering is also a mandatory response. In that case the Free People player decides the order of all mandatory actions and after that the optional actions take place (like adding a threat with Gollum or using YAaLaaT...).

   After all that the "if a skirmish is about to end..." triggers.

  I think this is the correct interpretation, but obviously i may be wrong.

  Thanks for you guys for the explanations!  :up:

September 09, 2008, 08:50:26 PM
Reply #10

FingolfinFinwe

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Re: Which Triggers first?
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2008, 08:50:26 PM »
Sounds good  :up:

September 10, 2008, 03:53:40 AM
Reply #11

Elessar's Socks

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Re: Which Triggers first?
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2008, 03:53:40 AM »
  The main point on deciding which actions triggers first is consulting if the action is either required or optional actions. In case of two actions in the same categorie (two required actions for example) the freeps decides the order in which they occur.
Optional actions follow the action procedure, which is just a fancy way of saying the players take turns (with the FP player having the opportunity to go first).

Quote
   But notice that, like Jord sayed, skirmish resolve before actions as assign wounds take place, so actually you respond to it before threats trigger because the winning side is defined before wounds are placed (or the character is killed).
When do the threats trigger? They trigger as a result of a companion/ally being killed, not from winning/losing a skirmish. You can say that both wound placement and DttLC are required actions that trigger when a skirmish is resolved, but you can't say the same for threat assignment--threats have a different trigger.

So what I'm getting at is, when threats are assigned really depends on the situation, because it depends on when a companion/ally is killed. If the first required action to the skirmish resolving is to place a wound on a character, killing him off, then this is the trigger for the threats. The threats will be assigned before any other required actions to winning/losing a skirmish have resolved.

If as the final optional action to winning/losing a skirmish you somehow manage to kill off the character, then the threats will be triggered last. It all depends.

To give a few examples:

Threatening Guide wins a skirmish through strength. A wound token is placed on the losing companion as a required action, but the companion survives. Next, optional actions are performed. Let's say you want to use Gollum's text and also have You're a Liar and a Thief in hand, which can kill the companion. You can (1) add a threat first, then play YaLaaT, triggering all the threats; or (2) play YaLaaT first, triggering all the threats, then add a threat (which stays).

Threatening Guide wins a skirmish through wounding (killing the companion). Actions that trigger from the companion being killed must be performed before actions that trigger from winning/losing the skirmish: when a character's vitality is reduced to zero, that character is killed; when killed, that character is removed from the skirmish, and the other side is declared the winner (in a 1:1 skirmish). Threats are triggered as a required action to the companion being killed. Next, required actions to winning/losing the skirmish are performed, and then optional actions. At this point you can add a threat (which stays).

Threatening Guide wins a skirmish through overwhelming. This is a bit tricky, but I think actions that trigger from the companion being killed must again be performed before actions that trigger from winning/losing the skirmish. (I can see a debate over this, though.) If that's the case, the situation would proceed as in the wounding case.

---

As for whether regular wounds must be placed before performing actions triggered by winning/losing the skirmish, I did find something interesting in my search:

Here we have Merrick saying regular wound placement comes first:

Quote
1) Character loses the skirmish and wounds are placed/characters are overwhelmed.
2) If a character dies, threat wounds must be placed one at a time since this is a mandatory action resulting from a character hitting the dead pile.
3) After all wounds are placed, then you may respond to items triggered by losing the skirmish (Mind and body, etc.)
4) After all required responses take place, optional responses take place (as indicated by the word "may" in the game text of the card).
5) Skirmish ends after all optional responses and actions are completed.

And here we have Bib saying the Free Peoples player decides the order:

Quote
And that's when the Mandatory/Optional rules come into play. Let Them Come is a mandatory action, and so the FP would get to choose whether to place the wound(S) for winning first or to use LTC first.

The timing rules for this game are really quite clear.
(Couldn't resist copying the second paragraph.) I've been using this interpretation, but they're both right 99.99% of the time, so... :lol:

September 10, 2008, 04:23:56 AM
Reply #12

lem0nhead

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Re: Which Triggers first?
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2008, 04:23:56 AM »
Which Triggers first?

The chicken. Definately not the egg.
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September 10, 2008, 06:55:02 AM
Reply #13

DáinIronfoot

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Re: Which Triggers first?
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2008, 06:55:02 AM »
Quote from: lem0nhead
Quote from: Pepin The Breve
Which Triggers first?

The chicken. Definately not the egg.

But where does the omelette come in?! ;)
Best regards,
Dáin


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September 10, 2008, 09:34:51 AM
Reply #14

Pepin The Breve

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Re: Which Triggers first?
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2008, 09:34:51 AM »
  I agree with ES said excepto for the part that threats triggers first than mandatory actions for winning or losing.

  From the rulebook:

"If all characters of one side are removed during a skirmish before strength has been totaled, the skirmish resolves and the other side wins."

  So if Gollum kills a companions with They Stole It that companions is removed from skirmish (to be placed on the dead pile) and the skirmish resolves at this exact time (being Gollum the winner side). For me that match the same time as threats triggers...

      "When a companion or ally is killed and that card is placed in the dead pile, the Free Peoples player counts the number of threats on the dead pile and then removes them. Then the Free Peoples player must assign a number of wounds equal to the number of threats removed to his companions in any way he wishes."


   This make room for different interpretations on the correct timing but for me they occurs at the same time (threats and mandatory for winning or losing...