The Last Homely House
Middle-Earth => Archives of Minas Tirith => Topic started by: Cw0rk on December 21, 2009, 08:08:48 AM
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Can I play Foul Horde from my discard pile using Southron Invaders?
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I'd think not, since the ambush-giving game text isn't active while Foul Horde is in the discard pile.
Though I've been meaning to ask: whether it's Plotting Deceiver in the discard pile, Gorgoroth Pillager stacked on a site, Slaked Thirsts stacked on a [Dwarven] condition, etc., is there a rule making their game text active, or do you just go along with the flow?
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I'd think not, since the ambush-giving game text isn't active while Foul Horde is in the discard pile.
Though I've been meaning to ask: whether it's Plotting Deceiver in the discard pile, Gorgoroth Pillager stacked on a site, Slaked Thirsts stacked on a [Dwarven] condition, etc., is there a rule making their game text active, or do you just go along with the flow?
Even if Foul Horde's text would be active, does it have any vitality when it's in the discard pile to gain the ambush 1 keyword?
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Is there are rule regarding vitality in the discard pile? I'd like to think that you can, but I see ES's point that the text isn't active in the discard pile.
-wtk
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Been wanting to confirm the activeness of cards *not* in play, and it was in the starter rulebooks all along. They basically repeat the CR's active entry but leave out the "in play" restriction. I don't see the discard pile being treated specially, so it looks like cards in there can be active, too.
An active Foul Horde in the discard pile is still not in play, though, so I'd be surprised if such game text can be used. Maybe someone has something more substantial.
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In order for a shadow card to hit the discard pile, its vitality needs to be reduced to 0. This would make me assume that cards in the discard pile therefore have a vitality of 0.
Just my ramblings
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In order for a shadow card to hit the discard pile, its vitality needs to be reduced to 0. This would make me assume that cards in the discard pile therefore have a vitality of 0.
Just my ramblings
Wait a sec... when you discard a minion from hand to reconcile, you are implicitly reducing its vitality to 0?
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Perhaps I should add "from play"
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Though I've been meaning to ask: whether it's Plotting Deceiver in the discard pile, Gorgoroth Pillager stacked on a site, Slaked Thirsts stacked on a [Dwarven] condition, etc., is there a rule making their game text active, or do you just go along with the flow?
It's the basic rule that the specific trumps the general. That's why cards like Horn of Boromir trump the rule that allies can only be assigned to skirmishes at their home sites, Radagast trumps the general rules regarding move limits, etc.
As to Foul Horde and Southron Invaders, I would agree with Elessar's Socks on this one: While in your discard pile, Foul Horde does have 3 vitality (and thus could be affected by a card that said, e.g., "Play a minion with 2 or more vitality from your discard pile."), but its game text is not active and thus does not give it ambush [1] (otherwise, say, having an Orc Pursuer and an Orc Runner in your discard pile would eliminate the roaming penalty for [sauron] Orcs, the strength bonuses from Gollum, Hopeless, Gollum, Stinker, and Gollum, Threatening Guide in the discard pile would all apply to the Gollum, Plotting Deceiver in play, and don't even get me started with conditions or events).
By the way, c10ckw0rk, is this hypothetical, or have you been secretly crossing [Isengard] Orcs with [Raider] Men?
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Very good interpretation Sam. I think I agree with everything you said. It sounds quite logical.
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But isn't a standard Ambush(X) on a minion part of its game text? Bold keywords are part of the game text, right? When you play Southron Invaders you HAVE to use the game text of cards in the discard pile, otherwise you'd never find something with Ambush. So why is it that we're able to look at the keyword-section of a card's game text, but not the stuff that comes after it (as in the case of Foul Horde)?
(By the way, I have no answer to this question, I'm just wondering why it is that some game text doesn't count and some game text does.)
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But isn't a standard Ambush(X) on a minion part of its game text? Bold keywords are part of the game text, right? When you play Southron Invaders you HAVE to use the game text of cards in the discard pile, otherwise you'd never find something with Ambush. So why is it that we're able to look at the keyword-section of a card's game text, but not the stuff that comes after it (as in the case of Foul Horde)?
(By the way, I have no answer to this question, I'm just wondering why it is that some game text doesn't count and some game text does.)
Wow you are right, the debate can restart again! When you use Phial of Galadriel, Star-glass, it removes the game text which includes all keywords like fierce and ambush. So yeah I guess that to be able to use Southron Invaders you have to use the game text of those discarded minions to find one with ambush.
EDIT: I just re-read Phial of Galadriel, Star-glass and 'game text' also includes race and card type... so many cards uses the game text of cards in the discard pile... like They are coming.
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I'd say this is similar to rules on spotting, discarding, etc.; cards not actively "in play" have no effect on the game except to the extent that cards specifically target out-of-play cards.
A minion with a normal "Ambush [1]" can be targeted by Southron Invaders only because Southron Invaders specifically makes the keyword "Ambush" on minions in the discard pile active for purposes of checking whether they can be played by its text (just as Glamdring specifically makes the races of minions in your hand active for purposes of checking them for its text). Nothing in Southron Invaders' text activates game texts that merely mention the word "Ambush" (any more than Glamdring's reference to Orcs activates the texts of cards that merely mention the word "Orc"), thus Foul Horde (or, for that matter, Suzerain of Harad) does not gain Ambush and cannot be played by Southern Invaders.
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I'd say this is similar to rules on spotting, discarding, etc.; cards not actively "in play" have no effect on the game except to the extent that cards specifically target out-of-play cards.
A minion with a normal "Ambush 1" can be targeted by Southron Invaders only because Southron Invaders specifically makes the keyword "Ambush" on minions in the discard pile active for purposes of checking whether they can be played by its text (just as Glamdring specifically makes the races of minions in your hand active for purposes of checking them for its text). Nothing in Southron Invaders' text activates game texts that merely mention the word "Ambush" (any more than Glamdring's reference to Orcs activates the texts of cards that merely mention the word "Orc"), thus Foul Horde (or, for that matter, Suzerain of Harad) does not gain Ambush and cannot be played by Southern Invaders.
Ok, what you are saying may be right... but just like Alazzar said... to find the keyword ambush in the discard pile, you have to search through the card's game text to find a minion with it. Why would you stop looking for the ambush after the first line of the text? Southron Invader targets minions with the ambush keyword in their game text (which includes more than the first line in bold). That could very well include Suzerain of Harad and Foul Horde. With Ordnance Grunt or Gollum, Plotting deceiver you have to read the entire text of the card when it's in the discard pile... but those could be considered as exceptions (especially Ordnance Grunt otherwise that would mean you can perform actions with minions from the discard pile).
BTW Sam, you may very well be right, I'm just trying to have as much discussion going about this issue as possible because it looks like there are no official rulings on that.
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Why would you stop looking for the ambush after the first line of the text? Southron Invader targets minions with the ambush keyword in their game text (which includes more than the first line in bold). That could very well include Suzerain of Harad and Foul Horde.
As I see it, this is because Foul Horde needs to be active and in play for its "While..." text to trigger and grant it ambush.
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Exactly. Simply searching for Ambush does not activate all abilities that mention Ambush.
As for Ordnance Grunt and Gollum, Plotting Deceiver, their abilities specifically make themselves active while in the discard pile. Nothing in Foul Horde's ability makes itself active while in the discard pile, nor does Southron Invaders's ability activate texts that grant minions ambush. Otherwise if there was a condition that said, e.g., "While you have initiative, all minions are ambush [1]," Southron Invaders could let you play anyone as long as you had initiative and that condition was in the discard pile. Southron Invaders only activates the ambush keyword of minions in the discard pile, because that's all it's looking for; abilities that merely mention ambush are unaffected.
Additionally, game texts only affect cards in play unless they specifically affect out-of-play cards. While Foul Horde is not in play, no game text, including its own, can affect it (except texts that specifically affect cards not in play, e.g., Southron Invaders or Ordnance Grunt).