The Last Homely House
Undying Lands => The Straight Road => PC or no PC? => Topic started by: CategoryOneGames.com on January 18, 2010, 12:05:20 PM
-
I really think that we need to get local players interested first and doing sealed events or block events is going to be the way to do it.
The PC needs to do a few things:
1. Decide what to do with the last few sets. Either X-List individual cards from them or the whole sets.
2. Get local events going.
3. Don't worry about V cards until there is more people actually playing. I know this is a big thing to be able to create new cards and people are excited about it but it is better to get more interest before this step.
The Sister game to LOTR, the Middle Earth CCG from ICE took about 5 years to actually release their first V set if not more.
That's what I see needs to be done from the playing aspect.
Places that we need to be: Facebook Page, Myspace Page, Twitter Account.
-
I really think that we need to get local players interested first and doing sealed events or block events is going to be the way to do it.
The PC needs to do a few things:
1. Decide what to do with the last few sets. Either X-List individual cards from them or the whole sets.
2. Get local events going.
3. Don't worry about V cards until there is more people actually playing. I know this is a big thing to be able to create new cards and people are excited about it but it is better to get more interest before this step.
The Sister game to LOTR, the Middle Earth CCG from ICE took about 5 years to actually release their first V set if not more.
That's what I see needs to be done from the playing aspect.
Places that we need to be: Facebook Page, Myspace Page, Twitter Account.
Agreed!
Working on point 2... as you can see we have 2 events comming up in the Netherlands.
Still I've an idea about using virtual cards as prizesupport, but I'm sure people (like gil-Estel) will talk me out of it ;)
-
by now the most important thing is starting local events, tournaments and such...
-
I am looking at a sealed event in sydney using cards from sets 1-3 in February. There is some interest in the tournament, so it may become a reality. Can't run it sooner as there is a heap of conventions happening in late January and most gamers are going to them.
I also have an idea to issue an in house v-card (just errata, no new game text) to support the event. I will print them in high quality so they look good if players choose to use them in their decks. Players will be told that the cards are not endorsed, but will be allowed for use at our tournaments. I will also issue info to get them using this website and hopefully aid in developing the PC. I don't know if it is a good idea (many i am sure will say no), but i will put feelers out there and see what happens before jumping in.
V-cards can be one of three types in my opinion. Errata (which is desperately needed), promo (alternate image) and new cards with new text. IMO errata cards should not wait too long once the PC is up-and-running, because cards with incorrect gametext is confusing to new players. Everything is not overly important and can wait, and may not even be needed in the long run.
As other members have mentioned - globalising the PC is a huge challenge, and marketing the game to the point there is a large number of players playing the game is all that is really necessary at this point. Promoting the game in-house, using various strategies such as in-house promos may be problematic, but it also may aid in building the playing group - I guess it is just a case of using what works for your group best. (In the long run it may have the potential fracture the playing community further, so i am conflicted about whether to go ahead with this idea of errata promos or not). Any thoughts?
-
Here are my thoughts.
We print out PDF copies of the FOTR Starter decks. Then we demo the game to the new player.
If they like the game, then they will get the Aragorn and Gandalf FOTR Starters (uncut PDFs). Also, we can give them a new player kit, which are documents showing them how to play online, and also links to TLHH (and hopefully the PC website in the future), plus a preselected rare card from the FOTR set to get them started.
If they do not like the game, then perhaps we can offer them a card from another game, like MTG or something.
And when the player base gets big enough, we can hopefully hold tournaments. Be it at GCCG or real life. And all participants will stand a chance to win something. What is that something, I have yet to figure out.
What do you guys think?
-
What I'm thinking to do is this. I'm going to print up some of the PDF decks (the new pictured ones) and have about 5 of each deck done (starting only with fellowship). I'll demo the game to as many people as I can and hopefully even play a mini tournament (if I can really get 6 people to stay around and play after the demo).
The tournament would be played with the demo decks (hence why having 5 of each allows for a tournament size of 10). The prize would be an ACTUAL starter demo similar to the ones being played in the tournament (mind you sealed starters actually have a few different rare cards than the demo decks). First prize gets a starter deck, everyone else gets their pick of one card from the demo deck they played that is converted to a real card from my collection (most of the cards in the demo decks are commons so I have plenty of those laying around). The demo decks go home with me and the people that tried out the game and played the tournament go home with real cards as well.
This is the only way I see using the demo decks, we shouldn't be handing them out to players, even uncut. The goal is for people to start buying real cards, not simply print what they want. If people like playing online then I could also have a nice little flier about that as well that everyone could take home with them.
I just don't like the idea of the demo decks ending up in players hands (unless of course I'm at the store and I'm letting two players borrow two decks to play with each other again).
Opinions?
-
i see no need to hand out printout of cards that are still readily available. The fotr starters as far as i know are not out of print, and my local hobby stores still sell them. I can buy these starters for less than it will cost to print them. But that is my local area.
I see two major hurdles to get new players playing the game assuming we use the fellowship block (sets 1-3).
1) The first problem is that set 3 is out-of-print and hard to find. That means some players will have access to set 3 whilst others will not. Additionally, as pointed out, many restricted and banned cards exist in set 3 showing the power level of this set. New players having limited access to powerful cards will lead to negative playing experiences if they cannot compete on a level playing field.
2) Sets 1-3 has around 20 cards that have errata or clarifications. It would be alot easier for new players to use cards that have the correct gametext rather than cross-referencing the rulebook constantly. Additionally, issuing errata cards gives new players instant access to some cards to kick-start their collection - or issuing errata cards creates prize support - etc
Of course, there are other options to solve some of these problems - such as playing with sets 1-2 only, etc. But the idea here is present a neat polished product to new players that might make them want to play and also the promote the concept of a PC.
-
I wonder what we could do to fix the errata. I'm torn personally. If we release "whole cards" then suddenly everyone has the errata "rares" from set three which can change the course of the game (might be good might be bad). But if we release slips, people that don't have access to the cards (to buy) are at a disadvantage (sort of).
My personal thoughts is to do something similar to what the other PCs have done. Let's figure out the errata in Set 3 and create slips for the cards that people can use to replace the errata. I'd even go as far as to say ban the cards if they don't have the new slip. Most of the group here has a pretty good idea what is errata and if we release a PDF with the "fixed" slips then a person still must have the card to play.
I like the idea of still pushing hard product, and hard being Decipher released product. Yes some might be tough to get a hold of, but isn't that how it's always been with any ccg? The rares are hard to get, but when you get them you feel more powerful.
I guess we just have to figure out if we're trying to give every single person out there an equal playing ground or still working off the idea of hard product is the only way to go.
-
I think new players would not mind the fact that cards are overpowered. We shouldn't really worry about that too, as our aim right now is just to increase the player base.
-
Cards that could be released from sets 1-3 as errata (whether it is errata or a clarification). (taken from comprehensive rules 4.0).
Gift of Boats 1U46
One Whom Men Would Follow 1U109
A Ranger's Versatility 1U113
Saruman's Snows 1C138
Worry 1U162
Drawn to its Power 1U211
Orc Banner 1R263
Rosie Cotton 1U309
Ettenmoors 1C331
Ford of Bruinen 1U338
Balin's Tomb 1U343
Emyn Muil 1U360
We Must Go Warily 3C48
Melilot Brandybuck, Merry Dancer 3R110
The following cards have errata or clarifications (but have already been issued by Decipher as reprints). It could be debated whether these need to be issued.
Book of Mazarbul 0P7 (reprinted correctly as 3R1)
Axe Strike 1C3 (incorrectly printed in FOTR set only)
Gimli Dwarf of Erebor 1U12 (reprinted correctly in Legolas starter - which is out-of-print - strong argument to include this one as a reprint)
Far Seeing Eyes 1C43 (reprinted correctly in Legolas starter - which is out-of-print - strong argument to include this one as a reprint)
The Mirror of Galadriel 1R55 (reprinted correctly in FOTR beta starter decks)
Saruman's Chill 1C134 - some have incorrectly printed cost (cost 1 is correct)
Orc Ambusher 1C261 (incorrectly printed as non-native in MOM starter decks)
Orc Assassin 1C262 (incorrectly printed as non-native in MOM starter decks)
Bilbo Baggins, Retired Adventurer 1R284 (title should be Bilbo, Retired Adventurer)
Thror's Map 1R318 (reprinted correctly as random rare in FOTR beta starter decks)
Bilbo Baggins, Well-spoken Gentlehobbit 2U96 (title shoud be Bilbo, Well-spoken Gentlehobbit)
and thats it
So 14 cards minimum, 25 maximum. - 6 rares maximum out of 609 cards total (sets 1-3)
Designing a new template with half-slips is alot harder than chaging text on a whole card. In the end, i guess it comes down to what Decipher give us approval to do.
Just my random thoughts :)
-
I'll say it here for the sake of the discussion at hand, although a little off-topic:
Errata, clarificationand such are nice to keep power levels in check, but BEFORE doing such things, the ideal approach is to try to issue countermeasures for the broken cards. I'm not sure you'll get permission from D to do so, but if you DO manage to get Virtual Card license, try designing cards to countering broken ones. If it still doesn't keep them in check (it does not need to neuter them, just balance gameplay, even if it's broken, if it's not the ONLY viable strategy, it's still ok), then proceed to errata or ban.
-
It is easy to get off-topic, but it seems people still read it ...
Designing new cards with the right people on board would be a nice carrot to use to try and draw players back to the game, but if it is not done well it has the potential to do more damage than good. Either way, new cards are along way off, as there are many steps that need to be addressed prior to this.
At this stage, my focus is on my local playing group, which is terribly fractured to the point it no longer exists. Word of mouth about re-forming the group has gained a little momentum and hopefully soon we might be back on track to run regular tournaments again. Once playing, hopefully we can attract some new players.
As soon as new players enter the picture, I start to worry about the best way to support them. I want to use strategies that maximise the number of new players that return as regular players. These are the main issues that I feel need to be addressed for newbies:
* The game has too many formats. If my playing group jumps from format to format new players will be quickly overwhelmed. My playing group should stick to the same format as much as possible.
* The complexity of the game. The format used increases the complexity of the game. The initial goal is to increase the player base by showing them a simple to understand game system. The game was no simpler than it was during the first three sets, so my group will likely support FOTR block to begin with. Turns out it is a fun format to play as well.
* The game is discontinued and some sets are out-of-print. No matter which format you play, i am pretty sure at least one set us out-of-print within the block making it hard to access. This makes it difficult to create a fair playing field if new players have limited to no access to cards (they wont stick around). This is where the idea of printable proxies comes from (select cards can be printed and used in decks at discretion of local playing group to ease new playings in).
* The game is complicated because there are alot of cards that do not actually do what they say they do (errata and clarfications are in the rulebook). New players would find it a lot easier to play if the cards actually say what they do. Issuing of printable proxies of all errata and clarifications cards at the discretion of the local playing group may greatly aid in retaining new players.
These are just my thoughts on ways of progressing forward. They may be right or wrong.
-
About designing new cards, it's actually not so necessary, but if we'll do it, just remember the old release schedule •The One Ring (M) (4M1) ? "The Great Eye" and "Shelob's Lair" were planned, so what do you think of doing something like that?
-
* The game is discontinued and some sets are out-of-print. No matter which format you play, i am pretty sure at least one set us out-of-print within the block making it hard to access. This makes it difficult to create a fair playing field if new players have limited to no access to cards (they wont stick around). This is where the idea of printable proxies comes from (select cards can be printed and used in decks at discretion of local playing group to ease new playings in).
the entire war of the ring block (sets 11-13) is still readily available for those who want it, as well as expanded middle earth boxes which come with 4 boosters from those sets as well as powerful cards
-
If I were on a PC and I were to decide on a "Standard" format, it would exclude Hunters block, which really is still too hard for folks to find, and essentially makes the Rare power cards ultra Rare.
I would also focus on "fixing" Fellowship block, and possibly Movie block. Starting small allows us to focus on a better known environment, and Fship was probably the most popular (and populous) set, since it was not only printed in pretty large sums, it was packaged in Reflections as well.
Since I have the strongest following here for Fship block (sealed, draft, and constructed), indulge me while I think aloud:
Fellowship block has a number of couple cards that are arguably the cause of NPE. What to do about them is a tough question:
First, what are the cards? You can probably answer that as well as I. Arguably the "NPE" cards in Fship resemble the first few Xlists: Sam, Son of Hamfast, Frying Pan, Flaming Brand, Horn of Boromir, Elrond, LoR, Sting, Relics of Moria, Ulaire Nertea, Aragorn, Heir to the White City, Savagery, PoO, No Stranger, etc--that's a lot of cards!
And I actually don't have a problem with most of these. To me, the 4 worst cards are Sam, Horn, Brand, and Heir.
So x-list starts to seem pretty severe, and I hate to reduce the card pool in a single block.
Restricted is more viable might be the right dose of control, though I think Aragorn Heir, Sam SoH, and Boromir's Horn would still be problematic to many.
Another approach is errata. I hate errata, and respect Decipher's original intent with LOTR to avoid errata as much as possible after Fship block, and just ban.
More radical: implement some existing cards as is from other sets into the block. Our ideas for this included some (if not all) of Reflections rares, since those are generally easy to come by. The Rare Plus cards are harder to get, but I'm probably not the only one who sees that the R+ Freeps comps are overpowered for Fship block anyway.
(I've also thought a lot about the Wraith cards, too, because they "fit" into the narrative of Fship block (you'll find I'm a stickler for the "narrative" aspect of LOTR). But those, again, are increasingly hard to get.)
Along the same lines, we could just focus on bringing in relevant sites from the last 6 sets as a means of balancing these cards. As much as I have distaste for V cards right now, I'll admit my cousin and I have been playing some of the later War and Hunters block sites in Fship block, adding a site number, and changing the TL if necessary. We've even played with some new text on a couple as dream cards (e.g. Pinnacle), which just adds to the fun and is like reliving the old "Race to Mount Doom" leagues.
But don't get me wrong: I'm not /yet/ advocating V cards. I'm with Scott, Smeagollum, et al on building a player base first.
An idea I haven't even broached is to look at War/Hunter block cards that /could/ have come from Fship block--even the new shadow cultures. But that's an enormous, messy, undertaking, would take as much work as V cards (maybe), and who wants to have to consult a master list of "Expanded" Fship block legal cards?
Other ideas?
-
BTW, someone can moderate (read "move") my previous post if they want. Kind of off-topic.
-
No dream cards.
-
http://lotrtcgdb.com/forums/index.php/topic,3472.msg45834.html#msg45834
This is why there shouldn't be a PC.
-wtk
-
Keeping LOTR fresh by modifying the way it is currently played, whilst retaining the integrity of all formats so they can continue to be played as they currently exist is the only way to move forward. You can't ban a heap of cards and expect to get support from the majority of the community.
If you attempt to ban, errata, restrict, modify formats and cards, and expect some players give up what may be their favourite playing format or favourite card combo - this will not work.
LOTR is a pretty stagnant game now. It is no longer in production, and most likely has a dwindling player base. Those loyal to the game will hang around, but maybe not forever. Every defunct game that was good has a group of dedicated fans that work hard to make the game better. The game can be made better by promoting it, but ultimately, without an evolving product, the game is stale and without new playing experiences most players will eventually disappear.
IMO being creative and working out ways of making LOTR remain fresh and exciting is the only future of this game. Any who oppose change, fair enough, but noone is going to change the way that you play the game.
-
You know Chompers you started to make me think (which I know is a bad thing ;) ).
What if we could change the way we play LOTR completely? I mean sure I know people aren't up for change much, but just bear with me (and I know my idea is completely off the wall).
From the beginning the advantage of playing LOTR was that your deck included both your fellowship AND your enemies. It was the way the rules were written afterall. Stop one fellowship from getting to the end before you do.
Maybe I've just been dealing with too much DS/LS stuff from SWCCG, but why couldn't we push for a new style of play to get people interested?
I know weird right? I don't know the way to balance it all, but what if we tried for a scenario type? Like 2 people vs 1. The 1 would play the Enemey (Sauron, White Hand, Etc) and the other two would try desperately to work together to beat the enemy.
Maybe I'm polarized, maybe I like simply The Evil vs the Good. But I think we should be looking at new ways to play an old game. I know weird :P
I'd love to see what 2 people working on the same team did against a complete Evil deck. Could prove VERY interesting.
Bash me if I'm crazy, but it could be a lot of fun :)
-
thats how i originally played before i learned the rules... probably cause i played star wars before lotr...
-
I split this topic to keep the local player groups thread very clear. Wasn't sure what the title of this thread should be, but never mind...
Just wanted to say that new formats are a great way to get players interested. Just think how many MTG formats there are (and there are a lot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momir_BASIC)!). Multiplayer formats or WoW TCG like super enemies (where you have multiple people against 1 super-powerful deck) are just new ways to have fun, and what's wrong with that?!
-
@ Ranofer
it's funny that you say this, because an employee from a local gamesshop said exactly the same to me some while ago. His reason was that because you've got 2 decks (fs & shadow) into one with lotr, which makes your deck unballanced. So he sugested the same thing. Now I need to say that he's an old magic, meccg and star wars player. Which started me to think.
Yes I would like to play with only shadow, but it will change the game dramaticly. It will need a different mechanic and then it will start to look like magic or star wars or wow. It also will be difficult to play with the one ring. Now is that not necesarely a bad thing, but then you could start to play one of these games. But still you've got a point here. My solution would be to bring in new alternate ringbearers; What would happen if Sauron had the one ring or Saruman and you could play some shadow stuff during your fellowshipphase (Sauron's scepter for example. But maybe you've got a different mechanic in mind which could convince me?
-
uhh i would never play if sauron could be the ring-bearer, saruman maybe but not sauron
-
Actually it wouldn't have anything to do with Shadow carrying the ring. My thoughts would be to basically turn it into a shadow vs freeps, with the entire goal of the shadow being to stop the freeps from getting to site nine. Maybe shadows become permanent (not removed after battle), maybe they get extra shadow or something at the beginning, I'm sure it'd have to balanced out.
Why I mainly thought about it was as a single player it's always hard to make a deck that contains the entire fellowship because it demands a lot of cards to make each character valuable, but with this option it would open up another 30 or so cards to build around as well as allowing the possibility of joint teams, where 2 players team up on the freep side to play the entire fellowship with good support cards. Massively changes the way we play, but it could be fun to finally get true multi-player support (instead of 4 different players playing different fellowships, all trying to get to mount doom)
Just thoughts really :P
-
Actually it wouldn't have anything to do with Shadow carrying the ring. My thoughts would be to basically turn it into a shadow vs freeps, with the entire goal of the shadow being to stop the freeps from getting to site nine. Maybe shadows become permanent (not removed after battle), maybe they get extra shadow or something at the beginning, I'm sure it'd have to balanced out.
If one person had a deck completely filled with Shadow cards and one person had a deck completely full of Free Peoples' cards, the advantage would certainly go to the Shadow player.
Keeping minions out makes that even more in the Shadow's favor.
Without having a Fellowship and Shadow phase, there is no way to cycle cards out of your hand that you don't need to (hope to) draw things you do.
-wtk
-
Yeah, lets keep this particular section on topic please. Especially since it is the one topic we really need to flesh out.
Lets keep the "changing the game" ideas out of any discussion on actually getting players.
-
To generate local support i will first:
* Run a local sealed deck tournament in february
* Promote TLHH and get them visiting regularly - that way i can start promoting future tournaments on this site
Once i know who the regular players are, we will sit down and discuss ways to keep the game fresh and interesting, whilst at the same time working on strategies to attract new players.
I can't see LOTR surviving in my area if all i offer is a local tournament playing the game the same way it was played before - the local player scene already died out based on that format.
I envisage a combination of some or all of the following will kick start my local group. Printable proxies, printable errata cards, and mixing up the playing formats along with any other ideas i can pick up from related playing committees, discussion on this website, and valuable ideas from players in my playgroup.
-
Actually it wouldn't have anything to do with Shadow carrying the ring. My thoughts would be to basically turn it into a shadow vs freeps, with the entire goal of the shadow being to stop the freeps from getting to site nine. Maybe shadows become permanent (not removed after battle), maybe they get extra shadow or something at the beginning, I'm sure it'd have to balanced out.
Why I mainly thought about it was as a single player it's always hard to make a deck that contains the entire fellowship because it demands a lot of cards to make each character valuable, but with this option it would open up another 30 or so cards to build around as well as allowing the possibility of joint teams, where 2 players team up on the freep side to play the entire fellowship with good support cards. Massively changes the way we play, but it could be fun to finally get true multi-player support (instead of 4 different players playing different fellowships, all trying to get to mount doom)
Just thoughts really :P
Then I probably would be against it. It would be to much star wars to me. Good and better game, but already existent.
uhh i would never play if sauron could be the ring-bearer, saruman maybe but not sauron
Why not? It's in the book! Made a dreamcard of it: http://lotrtcgdb.com/forums/index.php/topic,2172.msg29897.html#msg29897
-
Just another resource people can use if they want. Once again I took the old decipher free deck and converted it to a higher quality piece of work. Use it, trash it, whatever. I'm just offering supplies to help play groups get back on their feet and enjoy the game once again.
Gandalf Free Starter:
https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B_TJdQjMZa1kMTUzYmM0MmEtOTc2Ny00NDIxLWE1MmMtNTgzMTQ5NDNkYmYz&hl=en
-
YES! RANOFER HAS DONE BOTH STARTER DECKS FROM FOTR! NOW I CAN MAKE MY NEW PLAYER KIT AND START TO DEMO THE GAME! :D