The Last Homely House
Middle-Earth => Bag End => Topic started by: King89 on November 17, 2008, 04:11:30 AM
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sorry for this useless post NK and all you guys, but i'm done because of the fact that 1/3 of all fellowship decks here are follower decks. ](*,) isn't it boring to play this fellowship just to get your shadow cards?
is anyone out there who is qualified to answer me this question!?
thanks and kind regards
king89
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I agree with K89 the Horn deck is a very shallow decktype.
No offense to you NK tho 8-)
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Ditto, Erkenbrand's Horn should so be x-listed. Or at least one of those key cards in the engine. Perhaps New Chapter instead. On a different note, I love the shadow. Only suggestion I can think of is to add a few Morgul Gates. :up:
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is anyone out there who is qualified to answer me this question!?
I don't know.....
Yes a horndeck is indeed boring, shallow and very annoying to play against. But with both horns out you can survive a lot and I cannot think of a better way of empty your drawdeck. I made an agreement with NK, not to play a horndeck again.....
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sorry for this useless post NK and all you guys, but i'm done because of the fact that 1/3 of all fellowship decks here are follower decks. ](*,) isn't it boring to play this fellowship just to get your shadow cards?
is anyone out there who is qualified to answer me this question!?
That depens entirely on how you see the game, and ALSO how the people you play against see the game. See, I could write a whole essay on how people often make the mistake of asserting that one can only "play for fun" when they don't "play to win" or, in other words, "go for the throat". However, to make it short (although, King, you DID give me an idea for a nice article, I'll think about it, thanks! :D), if you like playing in a competitive environment, you can go for the throat and still have fun, since you'll both be playing these kinds of decks. It gets tricky, though, when you whip out your, let's say, Fiend/Horn deck in a table where people are playing Pipeweeds, Signets, Movie-Shadow and such decks. THEN, for those people, playing against your deck won't be fun. By the same token, that deck you tweaked and tested to wreck a single Fellowship, also, won't be fun to play in a table with 5-6 players, so "fun" and "boring" have to take a lot of things into consideration first. In another example, if you're a competitive player, you won't have fun by playing against a competitive deck being used by a bad pilot, since the game will end up being boring most of the time.
So, bottom line is, the deck is out there, so you either go for similar go-for-the-throat builds to fight it, or simply agree to not play it. Complain and whine to get this or that card X-ed won't do much good. If I were you, I'd simply ignore Horn decks completely, if you don't like them. However, this is not really the way to go on the long run, if I were you, I'd come up with something evil to spring out on unsuspecting Horn decks. ;)
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sorry for this useless post NK and all you guys, but i'm done because of the fact that 1/3 of all fellowship decks here are follower decks. ](*,) isn't it boring to play this fellowship just to get your shadow cards?
is anyone out there who is qualified to answer me this question!?
thanks and kind regards
king89
My opinion is that the Horn belongs in a dedicated broken deck. Horn/Fiend, Horn/Troll Swarm, Horn/Forestgul Swarm, any deck that wants a completely filtered deck to operate and can kill fast.
Because follower decks are a cinch to kill anywhere else. They only rock vs skirmish oriented decks. Any other deck, say, corruption, archery, etc slaughter them. Ah...makes you wish that Frenzy of Arrows was still around...
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[...] Ah...makes you wish that Frenzy of Arrows was still around...
:D oh yeah!!
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That depens entirely on how you see the game, and ALSO how the people you play against see the game. See, I could write a whole essay on how people often make the mistake of asserting that one can only "play for fun" when they don't "play to win" or, in other words, "go for the throat". However, to make it short (although, King, you DID give me an idea for a nice article, I'll think about it, thanks! :D), if you like playing in a competitive environment, you can go for the throat and still have fun, since you'll both be playing these kinds of decks. It gets tricky, though, when you whip out your, let's say, Fiend/Horn deck in a table where people are playing Pipeweeds, Signets, Movie-Shadow and such decks. THEN, for those people, playing against your deck won't be fun. By the same token, that deck you tweaked and tested to wreck a single Fellowship, also, won't be fun to play in a table with 5-6 players, so "fun" and "boring" have to take a lot of things into consideration first. In another example, if you're a competitive player, you won't have fun by playing against a competitive deck being used by a bad pilot, since the game will end up being boring most of the time.
So, bottom line is, the deck is out there, so you either go for similar go-for-the-throat builds to fight it, or simply agree to not play it. Complain and whine to get this or that card X-ed won't do much good. If I were you, I'd simply ignore Horn decks completely, if you don't like them. However, this is not really the way to go on the long run, if I were you, I'd come up with something evil to spring out on unsuspecting Horn decks. ;)
the main point is that the lotr tcg is one of the most compact and well structured card games which was ever developped. as no other game it gives you the possibilty to combine fun and the aime to win e.g. a tournament in ONE deck. nevertheless because there dozen's of useful strategies. playing the horn deck in this times is nearly the same situation as after Reflections, when most people played dwarfs, or after BR forestghuls / saved ents.
although, King, you DID give me an idea for a nice article, I'll think about it, thanks! :D
nice, i will wait for it :D
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Hey man, I'd say that as soon as a PC organizes, New Chapter's gonna hit the ban list. No worries. In the meantime, D left us a disaster of an environment so let's have fun with a smashfest while its here. F_M, nothing can beat Fiend/Horn, not even Fruit Loops compares, absolutely NOTHING is able to defeat the deck, you can't just slap down a counterspell, the Horn combo WILL go off and the Fiend combo will go off turn 2 about 60% of the time and turn 3 almost 100% of the time. No way to interrupt it. All you can do is run Infi Gandy and hope that the combo assembles by the time the Fiend engine hits.
With Horn/Troll swarm, its standard and it will go off turn 4 usually, at which point there's no way to beat it.
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As you have said - Follower decks are very weak! I would not agree to ban one of the key cards, because you defeat these decks anyway easily...
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I don't agree with you. You do not beat them easily. Sure with the right deck, and I know there are quite a few decktypes that will kill it, but the point is not only the fellowship, but the shadow. A deck that only contains shadowcards is very hard to play against, no matter what. And any strengthbase/swarm base shadow will have an extreme hard time vs a follower deck....Each follower is a double +4 strength....:S
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F_M, nothing can beat Fiend/Horn, not even Fruit Loops compares, absolutely NOTHING is able to defeat the deck, you can't just slap down a counterspell, the Horn combo WILL go off and the Fiend combo will go off turn 2 about 60% of the time and turn 3 almost 100% of the time. No way to interrupt it.
Which is the point I try to make. Instead of banning combo pieces, why not create cards that CAN "counter" it? Sure, it'd only work online, since IRL cards are not a possibility anymore, but even so. Of course, there IS the possibility that even such cards are not able to stop the deck (and not having sideboards is something that hurts deckbuilding a lot), in which case bannings would be necessary, but you usually should try to get around to it, so you preserve deck options.
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Personally, I think that instead of banning cards that key in Horn or Fruit Loops strategies they should just make it illegal to play, say New Chapter and Erkenbrand's Horn in the same deck. Just my two cents. :up:
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why not just expand the rule of 4 to playing cards from your deck.....
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That might be the best way to go, but still, auto 4 cards out of deck each turn is pretty bad.
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If I was in PC I would never ban New Chapter. Instead I would errata it to say "heal an [Shire] companion". Horn problem solved, card remains legal to play.
Same goes for Steadfast champion. Make it say "heal a [Gandalf] Wizard three times" - and the fruit loops dies, while the card remanins legal to play.
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Nobody uses New Chapter, though, outside of Horn deck. And errata is really messy. Nobody likes to be told that their card doesn't work how they thought it does.
I generally oppose errata. I've always been a fan of Combo Banning. Like, ban Treebeard and Steadfast Champion in the same deck, ban New Chapter and Erkenbrand's Horn in the same deck.
Problem solved.
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Just errata new chapter to once a turn or sommat.
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Errata is a bad idea. Errata means that combos will be shut down in open, even, which is a format starved for new decks. Errata also means that cards don't work as they're printed. Meaning great frustration for players trying to remember errata. Errata should only be used if the cards saw great play before the combo ie, Strange Looking Men got the x-list instead of a bunch of errata ideas. Cuz nobody ever played with it.
Same with New Chapter. Nobody used it pre-horn, so its okay to get axed.
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I have to agree with NB on this point. Though I hate x-listing when it gets out of hand, I hate errata even more. It is hard enough to remember now what cards got errata and what the errata is unless you bring the print out with you everytime you play a game. X-listing a card in one format is fine, since you can just avoid a format when playing. Giving a card errata effects all formats the game is played in (including open and casual). Open and casual games are ment to test you in every aspect of the game. Since the game is dead anyway and no new sets will be coming out I say (if we do anything at all) just x-list New Chapter in standard. The Horn deck will get smashed in Open format anyway. Keeping it legal in expanded would even be fine as there are so many crazy combos in that format too.
Like many have stated, the Horn deck can be dominated easily with mass archery, good corruption and other decks that aren't just focused on a horn kill :up:. You can even set up a good swarm deck and play (or swap the site to) Cavern Entrance and that can even beat the horn. Granted the horn deck helps your shadow out but that is only half the fight. Freeps can get beat, and just because your deck is filtered to draw shadow every time doesn't mean your shadow will defeat your opponents fellowship.
Giving errata to a card not only causes mass confusion but ruins the game in all formats not just the format it causes problems in :up:.
Thats just my :gp::gp:, not that it will matter much :lol:. Anyway forgive any errors in grammar or spelling, I rarely proof read my longer posts for errors.
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Yeah, good points, except I don't see Horn/Fiend losing in open any time soon.
Anyways. I think the combo ban is the best idea.
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Yeah, good points, except I don't see Horn/Fiend losing in open any time soon.
Anyways. I think the combo ban is the best idea.
Making a combo ban is just another aspect of the game to have to remember. Now was it that New Chapter was x-listed, or did it get errata, and can I play New Chapter in this deck since I have this card in here too. I think making a combo ban list would be just as confusing if not more confusing than just x-listing the card in standard :up:.
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(https://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fresources.wizards.com%2FMagic%2FCards%2FUNH%2Fen-us%2FCard73967.jpg&hash=b2e784b376f39775e63caaf2fc22ddbd3506966f)
Anyways, good point on X-listing, but I think that combo bans still remove the broken decks, allow them to be played in formats that thrive on brokeness and don't damage the card pool. Its like, everyone wins.
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If you ban a combo though it can't even be played in Open. That is why I think a format ban is a better idea. Unless of course you want to make it even more confusing and have a standard format combo ban list, an expanded combo ban list, a block format combo ban list, and an Open combo ban list. Standard is suppose to be the most even and fair formnat to play so to speak maybe 2nd behind a block format. In Hunters block you can't play all the cards need in the same deck so no since in x-listing the card(s) in there respective block and expanded in full of crazy combos any way. I say instead of adding another level of lists to look at when making a deck just x-list the card from standard play and if it is a card that isn't legal in standard and is coasing problems then x-list it in expanded.
Horn can be played in both standard and expanded, but in expanded you have far more opions to corrupt fast and even more possible combos to swarm and play Cavern Entrance. Both of which would man handle the horn deck. In standard you are far more limited in corruption options and swarm possiblities so (even though I hate x-listing and errata I say at the most give it a standard format x-listing and if you don't want to see the horn deck stay away from expanded and open games :up:.
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Of course, it'd be a format combo ban list.
Like, banned in standard is this combo. But not in open. Open would have no combo x-list, just the good ol' restricted list.
The problem isn't the horn deck. The problem is a 30 card all shadow deck at site 2. Troll Swarm, Moria Swarm, any other swarm?
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I think the game is all about benefiting the advantage of surprise, tech/solid deckbuilding, and anticipation.
All said and done: Lotr-tcg is (and that's why we love the game so much i think) in my humble opinion a bomb-phat-and extremely-complex paper scissors rock game.
Stupid choices by the designers of the game that spoil the fun and change the paper scissors rock idea should always be discussed and then altered. Only one problem: who is responsible for say a new banlist? Decipher isn`t! So i think from now on every little (or huge) Lotr-community will make up their own mind about these matters and so will we from The Friends of the Whitehouse in Holland. Every new tournament we organise has a new or altered ban/restriction/comboban-list. The dude who organises decides.
In this case I`d say one of the following from what I`ve read:
- Ban the combo [rohan] horns + New Chapter.
- Maybe the [rohan] horns should only get [rohan] followers. Still 9 followers which is at least an automatic double +4 every turn.
- expand the rule of 4 like Gil-Estel suggested. (my personal favorite suggestion and person)
- Banning single cards affects too much other great or normal combo`s I think.
but hey, that`s for everyone to decide.
Maybe another crazy idea for fun: Some kind of horn/standard tournament. Obligatory horn Freeps with more than half the freeps side filled with followers, combined with a "standard"shadowside by choice.
what say you?
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A Horn/Standard tourney sounds fascinating but I doubt you could play it anywhere except on SdA.
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HA! That'd be hilarious. How fast can you butcher horn? LOL!
Well, at least it shuts down the Troll Swarm deck, since Horns can kick Troll Swarm's rear.
Expanding the Rule of 4, though, still allows an auto 4 followers from your deck each turn. Which is pretty nasty. Plus, it hoses the combo in open format.
Errata to nab only [Rohan] followers = 9 followers filtered immediately, pretty nasty still, and its an errata which has all the problem NK and I were talking about. Also hoses open format.
Banning New Chapter is like banning Strange Looking Men. Nobody used it until the Horn was released. But still, you're banning a good card because it interacts badly with another card.
So, in my order of preference...
Combo Ban.
New Chapter Ban.
Leave it alone.
Rule of 4 modification.
Errata.
Look at what errata did to Frenzy of Arrows! We errata-d the card, making Frenzy COMPLETELY unplayable in OPEN. Meaning perhaps the only way to combat the Horn/Fiend deck (a site 2 Frenzy) got eliminated.
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What happened to Frenzy of Arrows?
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What happened to Frenzy of Arrows?
It now reads: "Spot an [Orc] archer minion" instead of "Spot an [Orc] minion". I'll let you work out the problem with that yourself! ;)
Thranduil
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There are no [orc] archers! :lol: I see...
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That was, like, D trying to make the card like it had been never printed.
"Hm...this card's too powerful for even open!"
"I know! Let's errata it to make it spot a non-existant card!"
d'oh.
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Hunting Herdsman to kill the Horn deck
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Right....which gets matched by a follower discard to make him strength +4. So, each follower discarded = net +7 strength bonus.
So you've got 25 followers. He's strength 83. Huh...let's see, Daddy Twofoot- No Visitors! w00t! Or since Gamling's usually base 12 or so strength with all followers transfered to him, chuck 6 followers to make him strength 36 vs 63. Oh, and BTW, you've given another comp the same bonus to fight off another one!
Or chump a worthless comp. As long as Gamling and Frodo are alive, you're good to go. Heck, chump all the other companions and run 2 comp choke!
Unless its a dedicated Hunting Herdsman deck. Then you're hosed. But who's gonna build one of those? Plus, the shadow side's gonna kill you till before you can start doing damage with a Courageous Easterling racket.
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Yeah but to play New Chapter you need to spot two hobbits. :-?
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So play it. Then chump Merry.